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Offline Nigama

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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100203047/iceland-banning-porn-page-3-on-the-way-out-the-feminists-are-winning-thankfully/

Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?

I'm not really sure how they do things over there in Iceland.  Would video game content be included in this?  Would CCP have to make sure there was no nudity, for example?  They have mentioned that issue before, but said it was okay as long as it was in a private haven, not on a public street.  But this could mean that even in private CCP may have to censor the naughty bits.

Nigama
censor porn on the internet... that's a good one  :rofl:
"You may not remember us, but we may be responsible for your lack of memory."

Offline Radical21

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 05:09:58 AM »
WoDMMO is being developed in Georgia , so no impact.

Also WoD does not objectify women the way porn does, in fact the writing in WoD targets both male and female audience which is more than can be said of most games.

The Only grounds it might have in common with porn is that it is an addicting pass time and deals with sexuality:
As far as addiction factor goes it is healthier than porn because it replaces unhealthy addictions with little-to no bad side-effect and in most cases and it is not tied to slave trafficing, prostitution or rape unless you decide to incorporate these elements in the story.
And the sexuality depicted in WoD is  non-abusive and fully consensual so there should be no problem from the feminist perspective.

Disclaimer:  I'm no expert of course and feminism comes with several streams, some of them are absurdly radical and stupid unfortunately. (at least based on some woman I encountered online and the 'feminist' site she referred me to).

Ill try not to comment on the article you linked because that is not the topic of discussion.

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2013, 10:07:32 AM »
Honestly, you'd need to be able to read the bill or ask an Icelandic lawyer to get a real reply.

No matter where its developed, CCP will want it to comply with local laws, so if this silly bill is particularly wide-reaching, it might. I'd bet safe money on not, but we never know. Its pretty easy to hurt industries not specifically targetted by a such a ban if you don't word it carefully enough.

Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 12:57:21 PM »
The WoD should be racist, mysoginist, hateful, and controversial.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 09:14:59 PM »
The WoD should be racist, mysoginist, hateful, and controversial.

The WoD shouldn't be anything, every Storyteller decide what the WoD is for them and while there is common basis for the settings from game to game there is also a heavy amount of interpretation that distinguish them for better or worse.

For the rest Claudia, , nothing personal but I probably wouldn't want to play your forced controversial mysogoracist hatefest version.

Honestly, you'd need to be able to read the bill or ask an Icelandic lawyer to get a real reply.

No matter where its developed, CCP will want it to comply with local laws, so if this silly bill is particularly wide-reaching, it might. I'd bet safe money on not, but we never know. Its pretty easy to hurt industries not specifically targeted by a such a ban if you don't word it carefully enough.

Common sense trumps the petty letters of the law to the point that some laws only hold on paper but in practice they are never enforced or rare enforced strictly.

Look at it from a realistic perspective, CCP brings business to Iceland,  they have HQ in at least 2 other places in the world, there is nothing stopping them from taking business elsewhere or managing it remotely without breaking any laws because they themselves pose no threat to the law and at most WoD will be banned in Iceland.

what next? are they going to ban art because people study anatomy from nude models that could be considered pornographic by some? will all character artists go to jail?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:35:00 PM by Radical21 »

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 10:25:22 PM »
They have offices in Atlanta and Shangai, but their sole HQ is in Iceland. Icelandic law is what matters most to CCP.

Sure, this 'ban' makes no sense and artists will fight it, but pretending its irrelevant seems like wishful thinking. Its highly likely Icelandic sensorship could significantly impact the content in game at the end of the day, if its not fought at the root. Im sure if they ask us fans, we can all agree artistic integrity is paramount and the setting should not be compromised, but for businessmen, local laws where they have highest exposuse can be an enormous headache. Even when you own a multinational company, your local laws are still what matters most; in practice, CCP neither wants nor can uproot everything and move to Shangai/Atlanta despite preexisting offices. Nor would they care to do so over hardass artistic integrity even if it was possible; if the icelandic law forces them to make minor compromises, they'll make them. Path of least resistance. Between compromising a setting and loosing your core talent and facing huge relocation costs, it's a no brainer.

This being said, however you want to phrase it, WOD -IS- a dark and gritty setting, and Claudia is describing it pretty accurately. They surely know what they brought. To some extent, they'll want to deliver what the IP promises. So while I suspect they'll bend if they have to, I'm pretty sure that they'll also use what ressources and influence they have to make sure the scope of this silly law doesn't intrude on their industry. Standard lobbying, basically. If anything, history has taught us that corporate lobbys are effective, so there's no reason to despair.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 10:26:56 PM by Valamyr »

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 02:28:25 AM »
Re:  "For the rest Claudia, , nothing personal but I probably wouldn't want to play your forced controversial mysogoracist hatefest version."

Sounds like the real world.  Isn't that the point?  I wouldn't want to play in some PC fantasy world myself.  Claudia, I agree wid ya. 

Offline VampireBill

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 04:36:04 AM »
The Only grounds it might have in common with porn is that it is an addicting pass time and deals with sexuality:
As far as addiction factor goes it is healthier than porn because it replaces unhealthy addictions with little-to no bad side-effect and in most cases and it is not tied to slave trafficing, prostitution or rape unless you decide to incorporate these elements in the story.
And the sexuality depicted in WoD is  non-abusive and fully consensual so there should be no problem from the feminist perspective.


WTF kind of porn are you watching? Jeeeeeeeeez. Reminds me of a guy I heard saying he doesn't watch porn because he's "not into that 2 Girls 1 Cup stuff". lol

Anyway, from my experience, the WoD contains farrrr more controversial (and definitely not all consensual) themes than (at least mainstream) porn. Hell, snuff porn was a big theme in VTMB.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 06:09:55 AM »
The Only grounds it might have in common with porn is that it is an addicting pass time and deals with sexuality:
As far as addiction factor goes it is healthier than porn because it replaces unhealthy addictions with little-to no bad side-effect and in most cases and it is not tied to slave trafficing, prostitution or rape unless you decide to incorporate these elements in the story.
And the sexuality depicted in WoD is  non-abusive and fully consensual so there should be no problem from the feminist perspective.


WTF kind of porn are you watching? Jeeeeeeeeez. Reminds me of a guy I heard saying he doesn't watch porn because he's "not into that 2 Girls 1 Cup stuff". lol


I don't see how that is relevant here? there are plenty types of porn and has nothing to do with what I am or am not into, I was stating things from a neutral perspective.  I was pointing out that WoD doesn't have the stereotypical negative connotations that the porn industry often has.(and in many cases its not so far removed from the truth unfortunately)

Also I think you need to learn the difference between theme and subject matter. Yes VTMB had snuff porn as a setting for a horror flick but we didn't see any actual porn and the theme was actually classic snuff horror film (bad monster eats everything, lots of blood and screaming). Nothing controversial about it.

Re:  "For the rest Claudia, , nothing personal but I probably wouldn't want to play your forced controversial mysogoracist hatefest version."

Sounds like the real world.  Isn't that the point?  I wouldn't want to play in some PC fantasy world myself.  Claudia, I agree wid ya. 



@Nanaloma : The real world(at least the one I'm living in) isn't so controversial and it doesn't try so hard to be by forcing in elements of racism and mysogeny for the sake of appearing more hateful.

Such things may exist in the world as a byproduct but the world isn't about them,  it kind of reminds me of that bad chronicle where the storyteller tried to abuse and force all the PCs into infernal-ism to be more controversial. In any situation a character should always have some choice because such is the balance of the universe.(sure you can give up on finding choice and assume everything is black or white but that is a crude abstraction in my eyes that doesn't reflect the real world).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 06:19:29 AM by Radical21 »

Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2013, 02:31:54 PM »
This is the World of Darkness, not the world of carebears... It's far worse, dirtier, darker, awful than the real one
Obviously I baance my games with some hope, some happyness, but in the end, the tremere conspired with nazi germany, and used it to gain power/influence. Some believed in it, some didn't. Gandhi was a racist, black-hater who kinda thought the apartheid was a good idea. Mother Theresa wanted people to remain poor and helpless, so they could beg...  That doesn't mean their good work is worthless, but that when racism was the norm.. "yeah sure, he's equal to us... but he's still a fucking negro" is quite a common discourse by kindred who lived slavery as being totally normal. You're talking about people who thought

WW made them Embrace Himmler. They wrote a Wraith Book on the Shoah, from both sides. And they managed to publish that out there. Controversy is what makes the WoD so interesting, because Jack probably raped many women and didn't care for paternity, because Lacroix probably believes the Maghreb is still French and should remain so "we'd bring paternalistic civilization to those fuckers". Because Isaac probably has his own idea of arts and thinks indie is worthless shit, that only the great americans of hollywood can greate movies worth of the title.

In the WoD, porn is forced most of the time. It's darker, they're drugged, they are talked into it.. like prostitution is represented, really. It's all in different tones, between black and white, but in the WoD, the white doesn't exist, it's.. greyish, tarnished.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 04:30:34 PM »
This is the World of Darkness, not the world of carebears... It's far worse, dirtier, darker, awful than the real one
Obviously I baance my games with some hope, some happyness, but in the end, the tremere conspired with nazi germany, and used it to gain power/influence. Some believed in it, some didn't. Gandhi was a racist, black-hater who kinda thought the apartheid was a good idea. Mother Theresa wanted people to remain poor and helpless, so they could beg...  That doesn't mean their good work is worthless, but that when racism was the norm.. "yeah sure, he's equal to us... but he's still a fucking negro" is quite a common discourse by kindred who lived slavery as being totally normal. You're talking about people who thought

WW made them Embrace Himmler. They wrote a Wraith Book on the Shoah, from both sides. And they managed to publish that out there. Controversy is what makes the WoD so interesting, because Jack probably raped many women and didn't care for paternity, because Lacroix probably believes the Maghreb is still French and should remain so "we'd bring paternalistic civilization to those fuckers". Because Isaac probably has his own idea of arts and thinks indie is worthless shit, that only the great americans of hollywood can greate movies worth of the title.

In the WoD, porn is forced most of the time. It's darker, they're drugged, they are talked into it.. like prostitution is represented, really. It's all in different tones, between black and white, but in the WoD, the white doesn't exist, it's.. greyish, tarnished.

Again , I think it is very forced, who cares if Gandhi was racist or jack was a rapist if it doesn't serve a purpose in the story other than to say 'woah the world is so dark and dirty'?  to me it simply comes off as an obvious attempt to portray the world as evil and controversial without understanding of the nature and role of these elements, kind of like storytellers who think disgust is synonymous with frightening so they think creating gory bathhouse scenes would induce fear into the PCs.

In the end you can read the History pages of VTM and interpret it the way you do or read it and interpret it as 'some shitty things happened to the world, this is how Vampires were involved in these events during these times' and if you want to , use it as reference when creating a vampire character from that era.
The Shoa, Slavery in America, Colonialism, The Inquisition, The Crusades and so on... all of these things happened in the real world you so fondly refer to as the 'world of carebears' and remain as a stain on human history that is taught to kids in highschool. WoD doesn't really tell us anything new about these and it doesn't endorse them, it simply suggests new fictional reasons behind these events from a mostly neutral perspective.

Sure nothing stopping you from creating a racist vampire who looks down on black because he grew up before the civil war and after the embrace he failed to adopt the approach of looking down at all humans equally, the question being is that a character you would want to play? and after transforming to a different meta-species is it realistic that he really cares about racist ideals?
 to about half the vampires in VTM (especially the old ones) humans are not much more than walking juicebags.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 04:32:30 PM by Radical21 »

Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 04:44:42 PM »
Of course Gore for gore is useless as shit, but sometimes random murders, passionate behavior, riots.. Can happen for "no valid reason" to use in your story. But it serves the purpose of Ambiance. And if you want to be politically correct in such a game, it just throws what the world of darkness is all about to the trash

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 06:56:27 PM »
The WoD being a darker representation of the real world is pretty much the cornerstone of the setting. It's also what makes it interesting, because if its all like real life beyond some individuals' need to drink blood, it's much harder to make it mysterious and worth exploring.

I've ST'd several games, and I must say, the thing my players seemed to like the most about my world were usually how far I was willing to go to make the setting harsh and depraved. I'm sure others imagined it differently, but to me, it's one thing that struck from the very beginning as making the franchise different from other tabletop games.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2013, 03:05:34 AM »
The WoD being a darker representation of the real world is pretty much the cornerstone of the setting. It's also what makes it interesting, because if its all like real life beyond some individuals' need to drink blood, it's much harder to make it mysterious and worth exploring.

I've ST'd several games, and I must say, the thing my players seemed to like the most about my world were usually how far I was willing to go to make the setting harsh and depraved. I'm sure others imagined it differently, but to me, it's one thing that struck from the very beginning as making the franchise different from other tabletop games.

To me at least the settings being harsh and depraved comes from the reality of Kindred and their society, sure you can claim that the need to drink blood, to keep the masquerade and to not piss off some elder on the way are all trivial things if you make them out to be as such but playing kindred by itself is what lead to the darkness of the settings if you dare explore it (although you can be like other Storytellers and say 'ok so you drank some blood moving on', "ok so this nice elder gave you a 'quest' moving on" and so on, no right and wrong there but I think that passes off on many of the interesting parts of playing vampire in favor of playing a superhuman being in a dark world.. )

I think that Storytellers desperately attempting to shock and create controversy for no real reason other than to exaggerate on how dark the settings is ,  it ends up being very transparent and predictable because what they present is Not something to be explored or interacted with, it is forced as an axiom that has no underlying depth: For example saying that Jack is a mysogenist rapist asshole among-st many other asshole NPCs in your chronicle, no one is going to ask 'why' or 'how', its just the "cornerstone of the settings" that people end up ignoring  because there is so much of this to pass around and so little thought actually behind it.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 03:10:28 AM by Radical21 »

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Would Iceland banning internet porn have an effect on the WoD MMO?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2013, 04:57:15 AM »
Well, okay, I can respect that, but its just not the WoD I grew up with. If you read the setting books for VtM, you gotta admit, the settings are dark well beyond the nature of vampires. VtR is more forgiving in this respect I think. Anyhow, maybe your groups glossed over that part, but I never did. I'd go as far as to say that if I took Kindred I've played and made them exist in a carbon copy of our world, it would have been a totally different game and they'd have been very different characters. Never felt forced to me, but there's a huge difference between a gritty world and bad storytelling. To me, a dark world do not mean shallow characters or glossing over vampirism, they're both halves of a whole.

I think one of the reasons the setting has to be harsher is because Kindred would be in candyland in our world. The violence and despair in everyone's lives in the WOD creates a challenge. Desperation takes people (non-vampires too) to places where they're fun to interact with game-wise, justifying alot of action, tension, conflict. IRL, you'd need to drop Kindred in a max security federal prison to make sure they'd credibly find people that could spice up their existences. The vast majority of us are too comfortable and unused to violence to be good NPC material. At least, thats how Ive always understood it. Thats why the WOD had to be grittier, not just an atmosphere thing.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 05:25:39 AM by Valamyr »

 

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