collapse

Author Topic: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy  (Read 6265 times)

Offline Cahalith

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
  • Easygoing Howler
Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« on: December 09, 2013, 10:20:12 AM »
Sup, guys! I know, I know, long time no see, but you know how these things are.

Just the other day I bumped into a very interesting (and recently uploaded) lecture done for the Northeastern University by no other than our tall, blond and slightly intimidating Teemu Vilen (if you don't know who this guy is, you're in the wrong subforum).

Teemu Vilen of CCP: CCP Philosophy of MMO Design

Now, there are barely a few mentions to WoD and, during the Q&A, he pretty much refuses to even discuss the current state of the project, BUT the reason you want to set aside 2 hours of your time to watch this video is because it offers you a look into how CCP understands vital MMO concepts such as Sandbox or Themepark, what they consider the basic pillars of their games (and according to him this most definitely includes the WoD MMO) and a few jabs at Warhammer Online and some other games.

This video is truly a statement of intent by CCP and, if we can take it at face value, I'd say it's pretty much confirmed that WoD will be a pretty "hardcore" game with a huge emphasis on the social aspect. Whenever it comes out. You know, 2020 or something.
- Cahalith.

Break the glass of those street lamps. We must blind the thing before I begin.

Offline phonixor

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2013, 01:17:32 PM »
no idea who he is... but gonna watch it, cause i love game mechanics
please help me attain a negative reputation
i love RPing the jerk :)

Offline phonixor

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2013, 07:42:47 PM »
mixed feelings
he explained that players liked mining... but that sounds an awefull lot like grinding to me... so i am not to sure that i like that he liked that... i understand the importance of having to work for greater goals and all, but that working should be fun... draging an icon once every 3 minutes is no fun...

however i do like the idea of a game that stays fun :P

please help me attain a negative reputation
i love RPing the jerk :)

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2013, 07:53:02 PM »
He seems to really understand sandbox otherwise which is rare to read or hear in the post blizzard world.

I don't think players really like mining,  they would have a macro do it if they could.

Offline _username

  • Got Stront?
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 6732
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 01:56:17 AM »
If somebody has to mess with their mining ship every 3 minutes they're doing it wrong.  More like every 15-20 minutes, depending on a variety of factors.  Most people who mine full-time tend to socialize, surf, watch streams, etc. at the same time, since it requires very little actual work.

It's a bit late to fire up that video today, but I'll give it a go tomorrow.
LUNA NOBIS PROVIDET

Offline Rick Gentle

  • Gangrel Playboy
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3057
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 03:31:35 AM »
I would find him more intimidating if I could understand a single damn word he was saying. I guess.

I think there's a reason why the World of WarCraft-paradigm games are usually popular.
That reason is the Asian market.
But more seriously, it's because it gives people little bits of happiness and self-satisfaction spread out over a period of time, like when they level up, craft an item, or defeat somebody else in PvP. This is punctuated by bigger bits of happiness and self-satisfaction, like when you defeat a raid boss, complete an item set, or capture an enemy fort. It's basically electro-shock therapy in reverse. Things come in neat little increments, so it at least LOOKS like you're making progress even if nothing you do has even the slightest impact on the game world.

I notice he didn't give a reason why DUST 514 never made it to PC... (Or maybe I just missed it in the half-garble.)

So they started working on Valkyrie after they've been working on the WODMMO for many years, now... but the WODMMO is still only their fourth project??
Dude. CCP. Get your friggin' priorities straight. If you feed your baby EVE Online too much, none of your other children are going to survive. Is the WODMMO the government-funded version or something?

Warhammer Online was an okay game, but I liked it more for its setting than any actual content. Warhammer is bloody, violent, and threatening... but you had the same old collection quests, a strangely bloodless battlefield, and no freedom to live in the setting. I don't think any WoW-paradigm game is going to be in it for the long run, because if you enjoy that kind of game, you may as well go back and play WoW itself, which still has oodles of players.
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Cahalith

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
  • Easygoing Howler
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 11:18:46 AM »
he explained that players liked mining... but that sounds an awefull lot like grinding to me...
I don't think players really like mining,  they would have a macro do it if they could.
_username already answered this, but mining in Eve it's a little bit like fishing IRL: mostly an excuse to drink beers and hang out with your buddies after a long day's work.

I notice he didn't give a reason why DUST 514 never made it to PC...
I had no idea it was a secret: CCP has an exclusivity agreement with Sony. But even if Dust 514 wasn't exclusive for PS3, I understand why they wouldn't want to release this game to PC. For one they'd be cannibalising their own playerbase and ultimately hurting themselves. Most players on a hypothetical Dust 514 for PC would be Eve players. Now, as you know Eve Online operates under a subscription model, which offers CCP a more or less reliable stream of monthly revenue. If you offer your playerbase a free alternative to their favourite game set in the same universe... sure, most would play both games at the same time, but you're risking having some players jump ship and cancel their subscriptions because they enjoy Dust 514. Even if they happen to only be a 2% of the Eve playerbase, we're talking about losing around $100.000 each month in revenue, more than a million dollars at the end of the year.

"But surely a PC would make Dust 514 grow and increase its revenue!", I hear you think. Dust uses an RMT model and we know how Eve players feel about RMT, don't we?

Another good reason CCP didn't want Dust 514 on PC is Planetside 2. Let's be honest, we all like CCP but SOE has more money, more people and more experience. Not only are they able to release a more polished game in less time, they know how RMT works. I read very recently an article in Massively about how Planetside 2 is everything Dust 514 should've been. Hopefully the stars will align and Dust 514 will grow into what it was intended to be, but as of now there is just no competition: Planetside 2 reigns supreme. Why would CCP want to compete head-to-head with it when they know Dust 514 is not yet ready? Sticking to consoles was the smart choice. But here's the problem: Planetside 2 will jump to PS4 earlier next year. We still don't know if Dust 514 is going to do it (Sony may not want CCP to compete with their MMOFPS on their home turf, we don't know).

That would very well mean the "death" of Dust 514. We'll see what happens next year!

So they started working on Valkyrie after they've been working on the WODMMO for many years, now... but the WODMMO is still only their fourth project??
Eve Valkyrie started as a novelty project that ended up being way too much fun and interesting to just put it in the freezer till WoD comes out. The amount of attention and high praise Valkyrie has received proves that there is a market without any serious competition for it. CCP would be idiots by not throwing cash at the game! Still, WoD hasn't been forgotten and keeps being developed in CCP Atlanta while, if I'm not mistaken, Valkyrie happens to be a CCP Newcastle project. All is well, I think.
- Cahalith.

Break the glass of those street lamps. We must blind the thing before I begin.

Offline phonixor

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 12:35:47 PM »
am i right to asume EvE Valkyrie is basically flying ships first person in the EvE universe?

so its basically a new EvE hud for the flying part?

i never really got it why this wasnt done in the first place... a tactical view if you really only have direct control over 1 ship (and a few drones) ... it only makes sense if each player would be able to command fleets instead of a ship...

please help me attain a negative reputation
i love RPing the jerk :)

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 02:49:53 PM »
you are somewhat wrong, EvE Valkyrie is flying the smaller fighter drones in EvE that would normally be controlled by a computer.

This wasn't done before because:
1. They didn't have occulus rift.
2. Its very action oriented interface that turns EVE to a flight simulator, not everyone are interested in the combat aspect like that.
3. I'm guessing that they didn't have the tech to do it some years ago in terms of internet speed and cpu speed, since EVE requires less degrees of freedom that way.

Offline phonixor

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 05:23:15 PM »
aaah fighters... those require bigger carriers right?
does that mean you are linked to an other players ship?
please help me attain a negative reputation
i love RPing the jerk :)

Offline Rick Gentle

  • Gangrel Playboy
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3057
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 06:33:22 PM »

"But surely a PC would make Dust 514 grow and increase its revenue!", I hear you think. Dust uses an RMT model and we know how Eve players feel about RMT, don't we?
I'll start caring about CCP's bottom line when they start caring about satisfying my interests again. Them teaming up with SOE makes me think they haven't seen or don't care about SOE's history with MMOs.
Teemu Vilen himself mentioned how great a sandbox game SWG was, and how it's open-class system satisfied players' desire to "express themselves in the game". But all that was before the "New Game Enhancements", which is what happened exactly as soon as SOE got the upper hand.
I'm happy paying a subscription for a game that's worth it; CCP can slap a subscription on DUST 514 if they want... so long as they bring it to the PC and polish it up enough. But a secondary problem with having a multiplayer game on both a console and a PC is that PCs have a much higher standard of performance and control. You couldn't throw a person with a console controller and another person with PC mouselook into the same game and expect it to be fair. Segregating those two groups onto their own servers would defeat the purpose of interacting with EVE Online (because EVE Online is one universe, and because everybody would hire the PC mercenaries because of their higher performance on the battlefield).
There is no good reason that CCP should've chosen to have an exclusive contract with Sony to put DUST 514 on the console besides money. And if, at the end of the day, money is still their primary concern... They don't sound like the people who designed EVE Online or the people I want designing the WODMMORPG.

They've got Teemu Vilen here talking about design theory and how to keep players happy, but the professor in the beginning mentioned how what Teemu Vilen had to say ran totally opposite to what he'd been teaching his students up to this point. That's either a very good thing or a very bad thing, and I don't like those odds.
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 07:18:04 PM »
aaah fighters... those require bigger carriers right?
does that mean you are linked to an other players ship?

Yes, Players in EVE as you know mostly fly ships of bigger class even though some are still smaller ships, I think the smallest one is 71m long?(for reference a RL F-15/F-22 is 19m which is what I assume the size of the Valkyrie fighters are intended as)

For your questions :http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/10/25/ccp-on-how-valkyrie-will-fuse-with-eve-evolve/] [url]http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/10/25/ccp-on-how-valkyrie-will-fuse-with-eve-evolve/[/url]

Offline Rick Gentle

  • Gangrel Playboy
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3057
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2013, 12:37:07 AM »
If Valkyrie goes the way carriers in EVE Online go, I'm willing to bet that each side in a battle spawns from a carrier ship (perhaps you have to hire players from EVE to move you from system to system?) and proceeds to attack one another with prejudice (sort of like the space battles in Star Wars Battlefront II, where you had to run to a fighter and board it, then zoom-zoom zap-zap). It would be cool if the carrier you were on had some sort of impact on the fighters you launched, and you had your own private hanger on the largest ones where you could store your own selection of fighters, bombers, and interceptors to suit the situation.
But I'm sure they've already thought out exactly which kind of fighter craft they're going to implement. I bet that a good number, if not all of the fighter craft will be ports directly from EVE, so players who migrate over from EVE know exactly what to expect. I wonder if we'll have to deal with podding and stuff if you eject...
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2013, 01:38:06 AM »
You don't hire players from EVE to move , players from EVE hire you to help them

Offline Cahalith

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
  • Easygoing Howler
Re: Teemu Vilen on MMO design philosophy
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2013, 10:03:50 AM »
Teemu Vilen himself mentioned how great a sandbox game SWG was, and how it's open-class system satisfied players' desire to "express themselves in the game". But all that was before the "New Game Enhancements", which is what happened exactly as soon as SOE got the upper hand.
Sony gets a lot of well-deserved flak for the NGE debacle, but people frequently ignore that there was a reason for it: subscriptions were falling in a very dramatic way. NGE was a misguided and ham-fisted attempt at keeping SWG relevant in a post-WoW age.  Huge mistake, sure, but the alternative was to let SWG become UO, a respected and appreciated game that nobody played anymore.

And it isn't fair to ignore SOE games such as Planetside (1 & 2), Free Realms, The Matrix Online (RPers paradise!) and the upcoming Everquest Next, which looks better and better the more we know about it. Also Sony's RMT model is a thing of beauty. Sure, they are not Riot or Grinding Gear Games, but they model is great and I'm sure CCP has been taking notes.

Oh, and the main reason CCP has deals with Sony is because Microsoft kind of forced them to, which now that we know that Xbox One will probably be dead on arrival it turned out to be a pretty good thing.

I'm happy paying a subscription for a game that's worth it; CCP can slap a subscription on DUST 514 if they want... so long as they bring it to the PC and polish it up enough.
No, sorry. We could've had this discussion years ago but not today. The subscription model is dead. Since a few years ago not one single major MMO has been released with a subscription model in mind and has stuck to it beyond the first year. It's over. You can't slap a subscription fee to Dust 514 when Planetside 2 is F2P and so are most popular games today.

WoD won't use a subscription model. I mean, there might be an optional subscription thing kind of like Star Trek Online has, I don't know, but WoD will be built around a Cash Shop. I have no doubts about it and, according to all I've read so far, neither does CCP.

And if, at the end of the day, money is still their primary concern... They don't sound like the people who designed EVE Online or the people I want designing the WODMMORPG.
They are a multinational company with over 500 employees across three continents. All that cool ideas? They require money, and in order to get money in the industry they need to have a smart business plan and not cling to what worked ten years ago. Do you remember the 2011 layoffs? I'd say it's a good thing CCP is finally starting to behave like the AAA company it's supposed to be.


Regarding Eve Valkyrie!

The game will be a stand-alone product set in the Eve universe but NOT sharing space with Eve Online. That means there won't be fleets of Eve Valkyrie pilots attacking Eve Online capsuleers in 0.0 or Eve Online Titans opening the cargo bay and unleashing a swarm of Valkyrie players on their enemies. At least not yet! (CCP dreams big, you guys). As far as I know, the Fanfest demo was single player, but knowing the company the game will surely be released as some sort of MMO with, at least, some connection to Eve Online, kind of like Dust 514. But no Eve Valkyrie pilots on Eve Online, no.

Other than that, my guess is as good as yours.
- Cahalith.

Break the glass of those street lamps. We must blind the thing before I begin.