collapse

Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: What was said in 2010 is now "false"  (Read 7478 times)

Offline xxbxx

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Reputation: +0/-0
Re: What was said in 2010 is now "false"
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2013, 08:27:46 am »
Look, if there's a problem with WoW because you can't be the only one with max level, how is that different from Eve, where you can't be the only one with a Nyx? I don't get it, as for me it's the same.

And I don't think player housing or even your Elysium example, very similar to WoW capital cities on a PvP server, full with guards, but raidable, really qualifies as player influence on the game world.

All I can think of is unique gear or unique items given to the players for participating in a rare event, or commemorating said event, like Jita monument? Various unique mounts, titles or gear given for extremely hard WoW achievements, like Field Marshal PVP set, Invincible's reins, Mimiron's head mounts?


Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Reputation: +-1344/-52
Re: What was said in 2010 is now "false"
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2013, 06:53:16 pm »
Personally, I think a better comparison would of been Star Trek online.  Has ground and space content, sure it isn't as flashy as TSW and isn't as resource tactical/logistical as EVE, but is perhaps the best baseline comparison to the subject of PvE themeparks and PvP zones.  Heck, it even has player made quests.

What are you talking about? STO doesn't have any PvP to speak of, all of its PvP content compressed into 3-4 poor instances of team battles that are barely worth mentioning.

Its PvE content doesn't really affect anything either because it is all instanced and even though some of it is kind of cute and flashy it doesn't really relate to your character so it becomes very linear and not nearly as interesting as WoD.

As for RP, it suffers from a severe lack of RP system so all RP is exclusively unofficial sessions of player's make believe: it is kind of funny because when joining some of the RP community there and bringing my WoDish and VTMRish ideals to the storytelling, Many were really amazed because they didn't know an RP could be as involving and interesting, even though most of what I did is just a fraction of what the actual storytelling games like VTMR or V20 can accomplish for player experience.

And in general I think trying to adopt more of the WoD P&P organic approach is better than sticking to something so formulative and repetitive as what you witness in STO PvE.
Sure you could say its not playing it safe enough but I think it is better than finding more of what is already out there.

And Yes EVE Online is a better example than STO and I would like to see them take what they do with EVE Online to the next level.

And for the sake of Valamyr who would say its again me looking down at everything: I'm not saying this to bash STO, I think its great for what it is(A Star Trek themed WoW adaptation)  but I'd hate to see WoDMMO ending up like STO.
Technically I think what is holding STO together is mainly the fact that Star Trek is over and there is no other way for Trekkies to get their Star Trek fix (2009 movies are not really star trek)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 06:55:55 pm by Radical21 »

Offline Nosferatu Numbers Station

  • Concealer of a dead language
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Reputation: +239/-2
Re: What was said in 2010 is now "false"
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2013, 10:00:28 pm »
Personally, I think a better comparison would of been Star Trek online.  Has ground and space content, sure it isn't as flashy as TSW and isn't as resource tactical/logistical as EVE, but is perhaps the best baseline comparison to the subject of PvE themeparks and PvP zones.  Heck, it even has player made quests.

What are you talking about? STO doesn't have any PvP to speak of, all of its PvP content compressed into 3-4 poor instances of team battles that are barely worth mentioning.

Its PvE content doesn't really affect anything either because it is all instanced and even though some of it is kind of cute and flashy it doesn't really relate to your character so it becomes very linear and not nearly as interesting as WoD.

As for RP, it suffers from a severe lack of RP system so all RP is exclusively unofficial sessions of player's make believe: it is kind of funny because when joining some of the RP community there and bringing my WoDish and VTMRish ideals to the storytelling, Many were really amazed because they didn't know an RP could be as involving and interesting, even though most of what I did is just a fraction of what the actual storytelling games like VTMR or V20 can accomplish for player experience.

And in general I think trying to adopt more of the WoD P&P organic approach is better than sticking to something so formulative and repetitive as what you witness in STO PvE.
Sure you could say its not playing it safe enough but I think it is better than finding more of what is already out there.

And Yes EVE Online is a better example than STO and I would like to see them take what they do with EVE Online to the next level.


TSW wasn't very big on RPing either, though they have a whole section in the forums that indulges in that instead.  I think most of the roleplaying occurs off the game, I'm guessing because it's works better outside the boundries of the mechanics given to them, I'd check if they have a /roll mechanic but I'm not wasting 2-5 hours reinstalling the game (it's the 4th of july after all).  Plus again, the stotic personality of the PC really ruins the immersion.

Though I will admit you are right about the PvP (heck I haven't gotten to that point yet), the game is mainly PvE material though it does space combat in a decent way that it's easy to learn, hard to master.  I imagine EVE is hard to learn and master, and lots of new things to learn from what I've read in the emergent thread.  I believe that is what your after?

It's that line again, the one that separates those who want to just play a game, and those who want to be a part of the game itself.  And it's a hard one to erase without sacrifice from both sides.  People hate the sacrifice aspect because to make either work you got to find what you have to replace yet keep both sides intact, and it's nigh impossible to pinpoint the ones that work for everyone (can't please them all).  And before you tell me that EVE Online has no line in that regard, it's a game that requires a lot of time (and effort) for one to progress, and one large group of people just don't have that kind of time.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 10:28:32 pm by Nosferatu Numbers Station »
If you put your head to a pipe, you can always hear ringing.  But whether it's the pipe or your head that's ringing is the question.

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Reputation: +-1344/-52
Re: What was said in 2010 is now "false"
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2013, 11:27:52 pm »

Though I will admit you are right about the PvP (heck I haven't gotten to that point yet), the game is mainly PvE material though it does space combat in a decent way that it's easy to learn, hard to master.  I imagine EVE is hard to learn and master, and lots of new things to learn from what I've read in the emergent thread.  I believe that is what your after?

STO has good game-play for what it is, a mostly arcade adaptation of star trek and it can be fun in the arcade sense but in no way does it even begin to scrape the immersion and epicness that _Username or R&K describe and demonstrate in EVE Online and even if it did, since its a PvE mostly game, most players do not become interested enough in that sort of inconsequential PvP to delve into developing tactic.

The learning curve may be a side effect depending how deep the players want to get involved but I think its worth it.

I'm not saying WoDMMO should be EVE since I envision WoD Tactics happen more on a personal/smaller group level and extending further into the social aspects of gameplay while EVE's Tactics come into play mostly on Fleet/corporation level so far.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Rooksandkings
In other words, in WoD since a single Vampire may wield several abilities simultaneously and enact several tactics, Vampires are chess players moving smaller pieces that are their own abilities or are also chess players(ghouls, other Vampires) in a composed fractalized chess game of intrigue over multiple boards (social, physical, esoteric, information, logistic) .
So it ends up being an advanced version of EVE that way.



Offline Rick Gentle

  • Gangrel Playboy
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3057
  • Reputation: +595/-19
Re: What was said in 2010 is now "false"
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2013, 05:34:39 am »
Look, if there's a problem with WoW because you can't be the only one with max level, how is that different from Eve, where you can't be the only one with a Nyx? I don't get it, as for me it's the same.

And I don't think player housing or even your Elysium example, very similar to WoW capital cities on a PvP server, full with guards, but raidable, really qualifies as player influence on the game world.

All I can think of is unique gear or unique items given to the players for participating in a rare event, or commemorating said event, like Jita monument? Various unique mounts, titles or gear given for extremely hard WoW achievements, like Field Marshal PVP set, Invincible's reins, Mimiron's head mounts?

There... isn't a problem with not being the only one with max level. That's just the progression mechanics. It was good for the gnome that he got to level 80 first, but obviously not the only one. The non-influential part of it is that is the ONLY way you can have influence in WoW - to do something first. And that's only social influence, which is quickly trumped by somebody who learned from your example. (Beating a raid boss faster, or with fewer healers, whatever.)

I don't see how giving out titles constitutes influence. You can earn oodles of titles in most games, but it usually doesn't come with any actual impact or influence. It usually just means you completed some sort of PvE task that is MEANT to be beaten (ex: titles and cosmetic items in Warhammer Online). In WoW, you could be the Grand Master General of Kicking Ass in title... but you're just another (really good) PvPer on the server. Whereas in EVE Online, being named a CEO comes with some actual control and benefits, at least over the other players in your corporation. Your policies and decisions could have important influence over the people you do business with. Going pirate and being good at it means you can scare off people from a section of space, or control whether or not another player has to recoup heavy losses in materiele and progress points if you pod 'em. (The shoot-'em-up in Elysium example would probably serve the same purpose as being a good pirate.) No, it's not taking over the galaxy, but it's a hell of a lot more than the WoW paradigm gives.
Giving out unique weapons for accomplishing an important task (first or best) is better, but it primarily falls under the category of social influence. I don't think I've ever seen a game do this, though, and for the WODMMO it smacks too much of the "items of power" than I wish to avoid seeing put in the game. To date, I've only seen this happen with player-run RP events such as a race or story-driven PvP exercise, where you get a fancy hat for winning, or money, or some such. Again, this is mostly social influence, which usually doesn't matter for a frak in a WoW paradigm.

For player housing, it gives players several points of influence: first of all, it's a physical spot in the world (usually) over which you have direct control. Nobody can go in or out without your say-so. Secondly, that makes it your base of operations - you can hang around that zone and use your house as a safe haven if you are attacked (a pretty frequent occurrence in SWG).thirdly, it lets you customize a game environment to suit your own desires - pretty cosmetic influence, usually, but it's stronger than a title. If you took this to the scale of player cities like SWG did, then your influence grows exponentially, as everyone near your settlement increases your area of influence, potentially controlling important/valuable resources, blocking off a useful section of the world map (like the entrance to the Krayt Dragon Graveyard, where you could get Epic Lootz).
This positioning of player buildings and cities has influence over the PvE section of the game - controlling sedentary resources, giving access to good grinding spots to preferred players, literally changing the landscape of the game - as well as other players - creating a faction base for PvP where there was none before, setting up handy fast-travel points to make other areas of the map more accessible, taxing players and providing them useful services that they would not otherwise have had access to in return. This is the kind of impact on the game I speak of when I speak of "influence".
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal