PlanetVampire.com Forum

Cancelled or Suspended Projects => WOD MMO General Discussion => Topic started by: Signothorn on December 12, 2013, 12:22:21 am

Title: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Signothorn on December 12, 2013, 12:22:21 am
http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/11/layoffs-at-ccps-atlanta-office-confirmed-world-of-darkness-dev/?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter (http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/11/layoffs-at-ccps-atlanta-office-confirmed-world-of-darkness-dev/?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter)

 :cry: :boil: :suicide:

Thanks to Leorgrium for bringing this to my attention. 
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Rick Gentle on December 12, 2013, 01:38:41 am
Right before the holidays, too.
Ouch, man, ouch.
That's something you'd hear from Ebenezer Scrooge, man. Man, dude. I'm starting to lose serious faith here, man. Again.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Leorgrium on December 12, 2013, 11:24:31 am
Right before the holidays, too.
Ouch, man, ouch.
That's something you'd hear from Ebenezer Scrooge, man. Man, dude. I'm starting to lose serious faith here, man. Again.

My faith is lost already  :(((((
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Cahalith on December 12, 2013, 12:05:11 pm
Hmm, I'm going to explain you guys first what probably happened here and then I'm going to give my opinion about all this, ok?

Christmas layoffs are a normal thing that happens when a company's financial year coincides with the natural year. The CCP PR statement is a load of crap (and I'm sorry Ned Coker had to be the one to step up to "excuse" his bosses' incompetence in this way), this was all about balancing this quarter's budget. As simple as that. It sucks, but I have no doubt the former employees will soon find a better job where they can work on a project without worrying about having to drop it every time somebody from another office screws up and they are expected to step up and fix it.

By the way, does somebody know if the fired people in CCP Shanghai? (I know CCP FlyingScotsman, who worked on Dust 514, is gone but I'm not sure if he got fired or not).

And here's my opinion:

I think CCP realised some years ago that they have bitten more than they can chew, and I'm not only talking about WoD but also about Dust 514. I know Dust 514 is still new and has to grow up into its own thing, kind of like Eve did, but I'm sure CCP expected to have better numbers by now (I sure did). They were probably hoping that Dust success would fund WoD into full development, but that didn't happen (yet, who knows). What are they going to do now? They can't possibly keep WoD in a limbo forever, either they stop wasting WoD resources in Eve emergencies and let WoD devs work in their damn game or they should just close CCP Atlanta and put WoD on hold till they get their shit together.

It can't be that whenever Reykjavik or Shanghai mess up it's Atlanta that gets hurt.

Maybe at the beginning we were just five crazy dudes following this game's development, but nowadays there are thousands of potential players across several communities keeping a close eye on WoD. Despite the attempt at keeping this game in the down low CCP knows every small WoD news is HUGE news. And what do those news talk about? They talk about a game that has been in development hell for over 5 years (with no end in sight) and that has suffered from mass layoffs not once but twice now.

The Duke Nukem Forever jokes have stopped being funny long ago since this game looks like it's slowly going that way: a decade-long development that results in a bad game because the project kept changing devs every few years and so. The "it'll be done when it's done" mantra is now over. Gone. You can't expect me to believe you care about a product when you keep firing people working on it and have the remaining devs patching Eve whenever there's a hiccup.

The "bright" side to this whole situation is that next Fanfest there will be another WoD panel and this time they'll show gameplay videos and discuss actual game mechanics in a not-so-vague way. They can no longer afford not to. They just can't. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there are concrete WoD news in the following weeks because right now there are a lot of people wondering what the hell is going on with CCP NA (for not fault of the devs working there!), from Eve players and WoD fans to industry journalists and probably a few shareholders and investors (potential or not).

TL;DR CCP needs to get its shit together. WoD gameplay videos next Fanfest if not earlier, mark my words.

My faith is lost already  :(((((
Oh, come on guys, stop complaining! I'm still waiting for this game even when they are using the obviously inferior and totally not cool Masquerade clans (ugh, I feel dirty just typing that game's name) instead of the vastly superior and interesting Requiem ones!  :razz:

If I can get over that, you guys can forgive CCP for being fairly inept at almost everyting that hasn't to do with having cool, kickass ideas. If anything, the fact that we're discussing this here to the depth that we're discussing it shows how transparent CCP is. Any other company? We wouldn't even know or care, and that's a great thing.

Keep the faith, guys. It's getting closer!
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Claudia Vonigner on December 12, 2013, 12:40:27 pm
Hiring, firing, hiring again, firing again. Stupidity, plain and simple stupidity.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Cahalith on December 12, 2013, 02:31:17 pm
According to Gamebreaker.tv (http://www.gamebreaker.tv/news/rumor-massive-layoffs-hitting-ccp-atlanta-world-darkness-team-affected/):
Quote
"We have been told that every World of Darkness Level Designer has been laid off as well as a mix of Designers and Producers on the project."
Wow. Just wow.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Valamyr on December 12, 2013, 04:33:44 pm
Hah, Black October 2.0.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Rick Gentle on December 12, 2013, 08:12:50 pm
I don't think it counts as an explanation if it's "probably" what happened..

This is a continuing situation of "Hope for the best, but brace for the worst".

And supplementary to that: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Radical21 on December 12, 2013, 09:24:14 pm
Quote
"CCP today made strategic adjustments to the staffing on the team working on the World of Darkness project in Atlanta that resulted in the elimination of approximately 15 positions at the company. The change was due to our evaluation of the game's design and ongoing development needs. While this was a difficult decision, CCP remains committed to the franchise and our promise to make a compelling, rich, and deep World of Darkness experience."

As in they finally advanced to another stage in their production and realized what they are moving towards, yet people spin it as a bad thing instead of looking at the big picture.

Sure I'm sorry for people who got laid off and won't see the game to its finish but it was bound to happen with the game being in concept for so long and the industry largely working in freelance mode.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Radical21 on December 12, 2013, 09:27:55 pm
According to Gamebreaker.tv (http://www.gamebreaker.tv/news/rumor-massive-layoffs-hitting-ccp-atlanta-world-darkness-team-affected/):
Quote
"We have been told that every World of Darkness Level Designer has been laid off as well as a mix of Designers and Producers on the project."
Wow. Just wow.

That is surely an exaggeration, there is no way that project is past the Level Design stage and Every level designer has been laid off.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Cahalith on December 13, 2013, 10:32:34 am
I'm thinking that if I really wanted to spin this into positive news I'd comment that the reason they fired all level designers is because they no longer needed them since the sandbox part of WoD (what according to Chris they've been working on during most of 2012 and probably a bit of 2013) is finished and they are finally moving on to other stuff.

But nah, I still stick to my "end of year financials" theory, it happens all the time in the industry. Still, be sure to keep an eye in Glassdoor (http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/CCP-Reviews-E159347.htm), I'm sure we'll see one or two new reviews there that'll shed some light on what's going on.

By the way, is Chris still in CCP?
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Radical21 on December 13, 2013, 05:50:19 pm
https://twitter.com/wwchrism

He still holds the title of senior producer according to LinkedIn and his Twitter so I don't see why not, you are probably wrong by claiming that its budget cuts , chances are they didn't need these positions staffed anymore so they downscaled and would probably hire more when their next project is initiated.

Another evidence of this is that at the moment they are not hiring people for the Atlanta branch... which means they don't need more people at the moment. Although even if they suddenly realized they can downscale they could have given more of a notice in that case.

If you look at Glass Door ( thanks for the link btw) the only recent disgruntled former worker is from Atlanta(Aug 20- 4 months ago) and it sounds like they had a fight with the manager since he questions the qualification of the people in charge.(which is not very smart even if its true)
it could also be a typical branch off syndrome where a successful company branches out then the new branch get someone to act as a middle-man between the executive management and the workers at the new branch which causes alienation since the managers of the main branch do not get to know the new branch workers so they can just make whatever demands from these branches since they probably know little  about the inner workings there.

 

Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Claudia Vonigner on December 13, 2013, 07:49:07 pm
About three weeks ago they were still trying to hire someone...

CCP is actively searching for a Technical Game Designer to work on the upcoming World of Darkness MMO. The successful candidate will be a self-motivated, talented game designer who would also qualify as a software engineer. If you are a highly motivated programmer with a leaning towards game design or a designer with an engineering background wanting to work on one of the most innovative upcoming MMO titles, CCP is the place to be.

http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=470 (http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=470)

(link is down now, obvously)
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Radical21 on December 13, 2013, 08:17:51 pm
so  they were looking for a programmer who is also a designer, that makes sense  since it means they either don't need more full time game-designers or they are looking for someone to do interdisciplinary tasks
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Signothorn on December 13, 2013, 08:54:21 pm
About three weeks ago they were still trying to hire someone...

CCP is actively searching for a Technical Game Designer to work on the upcoming World of Darkness MMO. The successful candidate will be a self-motivated, talented game designer who would also qualify as a software engineer. If you are a highly motivated programmer with a leaning towards game design or a designer with an engineering background wanting to work on one of the most innovative upcoming MMO titles, CCP is the place to be.

http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=470 (http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=470)

(link is down now, obvously)

https://web.archive.org/web/20130820121500/http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=470 (https://web.archive.org/web/20130820121500/http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=470)
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Rick Gentle on December 13, 2013, 11:50:01 pm
I'll believe that this firing was motivated purely by end-of-quarter financial balancing only if they hire back the 15 people next quarter and get them back to work on the WODMMO. I find it much more likely that CCP has stretched their resources too far and is now looking to cut back everything that isn't involved with EVE Online. Didn't the Atlanta office only have 30 or 40 people working in it total? But I bet the crew working on Valkyrie is still going strong...
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Cahalith on December 16, 2013, 01:00:35 pm
That's not how it works. The problem causing the budget unbalance needs to be addressed, whether it's a drop in monthly revenue from Eve or the Q3 2013 financial accounts being far lower than was expected from the projections. I agree that CCP bit more than they can chew, though, but this to me still looks as regular corporate practice when the numbers don't add up at the end of the year.

According to recent docs, there were 121 employees in the CCP NA offices, but of those only 65-70 were working on WoD by last Fanfest. This puts the current number of WoD devs around 50-55. What does this mean for a game that has been in pre-production for over 5 years and from which we don't even have a single (official) screenshot?

Hell if I know, guys. Hell if I know.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Cahalith on December 16, 2013, 05:39:03 pm
According to his Twitter (https://twitter.com/loki_diego/status/412308544843563008) Thomas Holt, Art Director of WoD, is out, as well as many devs from his team.

Also I've heard through the grapevine that Chris is still working for CCP, but take that with a grain of salt, guys.

Opinions?
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Rick Gentle on December 16, 2013, 09:53:48 pm
As long as they are still promising to deliver a WODMMO, they'll need to keep C. McD. on. He was a big name in the World of Darkness before CCP took over, and he's been the face of the WODMMO since it started.

But with all respects to Mr. McD., I'd rather have a level designer still working than a producer.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: VampireBill on December 22, 2013, 11:19:36 pm
I picture the WOD mmo team being the most anxious/suspicious/paranoid/general-low-morale team in existence. Getting assigned to it probably even seems like a bad omen at this point...
Now the positive spin: that sounds just like the atmosphere of the WOD, so it could synergize well!
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Rick Gentle on December 23, 2013, 03:15:47 am
Yeeeeeees! Channel that paranoia and anxiety into the very code of the game, like empowering a fetish or charm!
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 02, 2014, 08:57:30 am
Perhaps level designers simply aren't needed at this point and when they are, things could progress quickly.  They already said that cities will be virtually the same, right? (Or is that speculation?)

I think it would be reasonable to launch with a basic city template and then plan on rapid additions within the first 3 months of the game. That leaves more dev attention on more important parts of the game.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Radical21 on January 04, 2014, 09:59:12 pm
Perhaps level designers simply aren't needed at this point and when they are, things could progress quickly.  They already said that cities will be virtually the same, right? (Or is that speculation?)

I think it would be reasonable to launch with a basic city template and then plan on rapid additions within the first 3 months of the game. That leaves more dev attention on more important parts of the game.

I couldn't agree more, and as long as a company treats its workers properly ( pay well , give good work conditions) people shouldn't fail to appreciate that the company hired them all this time.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: GlassDeviant on January 04, 2014, 11:19:02 pm
CCP may also be realizing that the age of the MMO is coming to an end. MMOs are a dime a dozen these days, and most of the money is in cheap "pay2win" monetization, where the game is free but unless you buy "gameplay enhancers" from the real-world-money store you will be marginalized in-game by the simple fact that gear and character-enhancers are everything in the MMO arena now. God I miss EverQuest beta (the original game), heck I even miss the EVE Online beta, where you actually survived by being good at the game itself, and pvp was limited by the fact that there were more star systems than players (5000 vs about 2500-3000 or so at the time).
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 05, 2014, 09:10:56 am
MMO's are dime a dozen with many F2P games keeping the customers, but in my mind those are customers that shouldn't even be included in the equation. Even gaining some of the drooling mobs of disloyal gamers should be considered a bonus. Sure, the MMO genre is saturated, but they are all pretty bad. Console games for the most part are pretty bad. No one is putting the effort into the product. Put the effort into the product and people will come. They have the benefit of working on a strong intellectual property that grants them a certain amount success right out of the gate.

Small item micro transactions are the place to be, whether it's straight up cash exchange or a digital currency. I assume they'll make the points for EVE have a dual purpose for both games?

If it'll get the game off the ground due to funding troubles or cold feet as to the games future if they dump a lot of time into it, get bold. MWOMercs is an example of that. They are behind schedule for community warfare for taking and holding planets etc, but their Mech packages have served them well in the three waves they've had since launch last year. I know people who have spent thousands on that game.

How bold is bold? Perhaps restricting some of the skill boost "tomes" for when a character you have reaches a certain level, letting people level up their other characters at an increased rate. (Makes sense? Your more powerful character teaching or allocating resources to his up and coming brood?)

-Open up a Blood line character slot for $30? (Maybe even more. This could even go for $99.)

-Extra starting influences for $10? A bind to account item.

-Extra starting discipline points for $10? Bind to account item.

-Haven expansions into a larger space only available by micro transaction.

-The obvious amount of store exclusive clothing options, extra character slots etc.

-When and IF the Sabbat are introduced, offer a quest chain that needs to be unlocked through the store that will give your chosen character access, at the end of it, with the option of joining the Sabbat OR something suitable for turning down the offer and staying with the Camarilla. Playing along as a double agent for the quest chain. Instead of waiting for low level vamps leveling up through the game to challenge the existing Camarilla structure, you'd have people switching sides and getting down to business ripping each other apart, breathing new life into a character they may be getting tired of.

They could even come up with age related packages before launch. Neonate-Ancillae-Elder-Methuselah. Grants a forum tag or even a tag on your character sheet showing your support at the start of the game. Each package granting a certain amount of goodies?

Have they already pondered these concepts? Possibly. The cheapest gamers tend to be the loudest, but if this game is going to make it and not flop out like an afterbirth, they need to know that we are willing to spend cash. IF you aren't, be happy it makes it out at all and say thanks to those who contribute. (IF such cash schemes are introduced.)

I may not like the path that LOTRO has taken, but I don't mind their point scheme at all and the gating of content. If people want WOD to be like EVE with only basic PVE content and missions, make all that PVE content paid packages. Have waves or seasons of PVE content that keep people advancing various stories that grant, well, whatever they want them to grant. People that are after PVP aren't forced t drag themselves through PVE missions and PVE people are given a break from being ganked over and over. I supposed this creates the controversy of "safe zones", but the game needs to semi user friendly to welcome the hordes of care bear Toreadors.

In ending this rant, I don't think the market is coming to an end. I think as people age and gain experience in gaming their tastes refine and to be honest, there isn't much out there beyond the Horizon of crap cartoon games so people give up.

I also won't take vaporware promises about this game seriously until I see some kind of official forum or avenue where they can listen to what at least a portion of their paying customer base are looking for in the title. Ideas that may gel with their current vision and concepts they may not have thought of.

For all we know they are still high fiving and patting backs over the perma death concept from two years ago and have been staring at a dry erase board since then.

Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: GlassDeviant on January 05, 2014, 10:50:58 am
One can but hope. I've pretty much given up on MMOs and am not even looking forward to TES Online personally, despite being a longtime player of TES games. Having been through the millstone of many MMOs from the very beginning (UO, EQ1/2, EVE, and even WoW after years of being badgered by freinds to just try it, not to mention LotRO, DDO, STO and other smaller offerings) I've gotten disillusioned by the whole concept.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 05, 2014, 12:44:27 pm
When I found out TES wasn't Bethesda, I didn't give it another thought.

Been with LOTRO since launch. The Hamster wheel mechanic they adopted with vigour and the dragging out of Rohan and Helms deep left me sour. I could care less anymore. Game probably won't make it to Mordor.

I actually went and played Conan again after not logging in since launch. Played that for a while.

I would probably try out Darkfall 2 if I felt motivated.

There is a drought of sandbox games. I'd play EVE, but I think the combat is tedious and boring.

I would have waited for the Fallout MMO as I feel it would be craft heavy, but we all know where that is now.

The Secret War turned out to be fairly cartoonish, no ammo. Seemed very theme park. ie follow the yellow brick road and don't put much thought into it. Never played it. Was let down by the game play video. At first I was excited to see something with Occult lore as a game theme. Blah.

The gaming industry has turned into a ripe turd.


The hope that WOD will be as dark and gritty as it should be and not a cartoon mess with fangs seems like a long shot.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: VampireBill on January 05, 2014, 06:58:12 pm
Coming soon: Limited edition gold-plated +120% xp gain rate monocle pre-orders - $500.
(sorry, couldn't resist when MWO mentioned, haha)
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: GlassDeviant on January 05, 2014, 08:26:37 pm
The Secret War turned out to be fairly cartoonish, no ammo. Seemed very theme park. ie follow the yellow brick road and don't put much thought into it.

Yeah it kinda struck me as being a lot like ToonTown (a Disney children's "MMO" that I played with my daughter when she was wee). Actually I think ToonTown was better.

I'll give CCP it's due, if anyone can pull off an MMO based on WoD they are one of the more likely suspects, but it's still a faint hope given what they did with EVE after such a promising beginning. At first you could almost believe it would put gameplay before mass market pandering but that fell to the wayside over the years. As it is only the Earth & Beyond Emulator is giving me what little Science Fiction fix I can get, but if Star Citizen sticks to its course there may be *some* value there...but in the offline/private server area, not the MMO side.

Will we ever see a decent WoD or even just general supernatural-based MMO? Maybe, but I'm not holding my breath. How much do you want to bet that items like the Weekapaug Thistle will be in the WoD MMO store? Ah, don't bother, it's almost a sure thing.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: VampireBill on January 05, 2014, 11:47:49 pm
The sales of Arma 2 specifically for the DayZ mod, and now the sales already for the DayZ Standalone (early) Alpha release show that there is definitely a considerable audience for more "hardcore" gameplay, -a gameplay style a modern AAA publisher would never, ever touch.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 06, 2014, 12:28:22 pm
I think the zombie craze and Walking Dead are helping that out a bunch. Probably a good reason why WOD shouldn't be kicking an empty can around the office. If zombie infatuation and hardcore game play did that for Day Z, it can do that for WOD.....if they move on it and take advantage of the market. I watched some videos of DAy Z. It looks okay, but the replay factor looks staggering low.

Pander to the zombie craze and make one of the main PVE game plots around the Giovanni trying to fulfill some crazy plan of Augustus and raising the dead. Let people run around with their vamps massacring zombie hordes and greasy gangster ginos and their Setite mercenaries. Would make a nice tie in for introducing the Independent clans as eventually playable, though I wager Sabbat would get that treatment before the indies.

I wouldn't mind realistic damage models in WOD. Get a crit on their arms, they drop what weapon they hold or their leg makes them slower and hobble until healed.

Whether merits/flaws make it in would be another discussion.

Been putting more thought into diablerie and Generation. I think the only way to make it work in an MMO is to import Blood potency. Find in game reasons to also expend it. Perhaps permanently losing blood potency while fighting in certain zones or while a city is under attack if you die? Allow a mercy command which lets your victim live without blood potency loss or final death which strips him of a point. That would be interesting. Limiting the zerg rushing and injecting some thought into fights would go a long way.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Nosferatu Numbers Station on January 06, 2014, 10:43:19 pm
The Secret War turned out to be fairly cartoonish, no ammo. Seemed very theme park. ie follow the yellow brick road and don't put much thought into it.

Yeah it kinda struck me as being a lot like ToonTown (a Disney children's "MMO" that I played with my daughter when she was wee). Actually I think ToonTown was better.


Ha, I remember that game, been a long time.  Was grounded for a month from my own computer so I used my mom's instead, and found toontown.  What was a month's grounding lasted only 2 weeks, because I was repeating one liners for every gag I used, drove her nuts.  Got back my own computer, and didn't go back to that game since.

Bro Team Pill - Fate of Entropia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9OqrhCoR-U#ws)  I was surprised it still existed.

As for the topic at hand, the MMO market still works but it's being a bit bland with the microtransactions because they don't want to risk rocking the boat.  They are successful on one thing and only one thing, and that is the human brain's urge for going with what's worse for them.  Which in this case means how much money they spend initially.  People will play a game if it's free by illusion, and only the frugal can ever achieve the patience and self restraint to resist the allure of convenience.

But the more pressing subject is what we all think CCP can do what's right for the WoD MMO: Fear.  The fear in Eve is the kind where battles can be lost before they start (sorry guys, we can't win this battle because there are only 350 of us), and all the time spent to make a giant ship is not rewarded out of fear of the community...not so much for the loss of the ship but more for being a laughingstock when the channels are suddenly rife with schadenfreude (the nastiest of all shame).  But that doesn't translate well into a city in comparison to the vast emptiness of space (where people headbang to Slam - Pendulum) since cities have venues and many eyes walking around with cellphone cameras, as well as more limits on it's accomplishments thanks to it's graphical and gameplay limitations.

In order to apply Fear right into the WoD MMO, it must be where your only really at risk if you actually have something worth taking.  But it's unlikely to be something where a gang or alliance can share the spoils unless they trust a seller to distribute the goods evenly.  And if that is possible than they as well start pulling heists instead of whacking off people walking into alleyways.  Permadeath would be best applied when someone has everything to lose, and not when they are not even close to achieving a means to support themselves reliably.  That said, dying in a fight where your trying to defeat someone who is liable for permadeath may get locked out from fighting him/her for a period of time so as to balance out the respawn advantage.

The reason behind market pandering is simple: Compromise.  That is how the market works, especially MMO markets where even the bright ideas aren't always the most sustainable.  For it is flawed, as is our ideas and theirs.  And no matter how hard you try to stay true, there's a chance it won't get the crowd your yearning for...and at the same time give you too much and thus be forced into the cancer that is popularity entitlement, which screams CONVENIENCE.

In short, for a WoD MMO to succeed, they must tone down the fear that is more accustomed to a game like Eve, but not ever be rid of it or lose the soul of the World of Darkness.  And to be wary of the seduction of convenience, which works well when properly balanced but rips out immersion if relied upon.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 07, 2014, 11:41:11 am
I wouldn't mind full loot on death.

The option to "Diablerize" a blood potency away from your victim. Obviously in the heat of Battle this may be difficult. Again, there should always be the expected cost for gaining easy power. Loss of humanity etc. Perhaps a Princes coterie is immune to the negative effects of diablerie for blood potency. Another reason to be associated with the ruling class or taking it for yourselves.

Blood being discussed as one of the currencies. They've hinted at blood being fairly important.
This opens up the door for Ghouls etc in your haven that you can visit and tap them out of blood for the games day cycle.

I hope blood isn't simply your HP's. Just like in Fallout 3, blood should act as stimpacks, being applied to crippled or injured sections of your body.


For things to work, as their player base, people will have to accept a certain amount of suspension of disbelief for concepts that work well for the RPG to be transferred to the game.

I expect a full month in people crying about "This works like this so you suck, this works like that so you suck, this isn't "Vampire".
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Nosferatu Numbers Station on January 08, 2014, 02:46:00 am
I expect a full month in people crying about "This works like this so you suck, this works like that so you suck, this isn't "Vampire".

Story of the MMORPG's life.  Though it really started because some concepts don't translate well on another frontier, the whole defining down craze the stupid people started adopting has applied it to 'This isn't WoW'.

Fact is, you just can't win.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 08, 2014, 04:00:24 pm
Though, I'm not sure how I feel about the game if it had an auto target feature like most generic mmo's. Curious if they'll go the road of skill with a free target system. The general populace love Fallout and Skyrim. I don't think it's a risk anymore.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: phonixor on January 09, 2014, 07:21:02 am
The risk is if they can implement it well enough
Lag being the primary concern

They did say they would have a very liberal movement system like assassin's creed... though that game has auto aim... mmmh ... but its 3rd person. ... guess they could go both ways. ..
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 10, 2014, 01:26:59 pm
I think some disciplines would need a target lock system. The more mental disciplines etc, but if we're bunny hoping while tossing fire at each other....*cringe*
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Signothorn on January 11, 2014, 05:30:10 pm
Looks like they're hiring now: http://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/10411915?trk=jobs_share_fb (http://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/10411915?trk=jobs_share_fb)
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: VampireBill on January 12, 2014, 03:19:01 am
Good thing for them the job market sucks so much, or I'd think anyone who did any research on the project would be awfully leery about applying, ha.
But as it is... at least a few months pay and some work experience to pad the resume? Ok!
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Claudia Vonigner on January 13, 2014, 03:45:38 pm
They need to rethink their whole thing, before firing in december and hiring in january is like, veeeeery bad management of human resources.

(I am however trying to talk Burgermeister into applying :D heb had applied before but they didn't notice the awesomeness, it seemed...)
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Leorgrium on January 13, 2014, 07:30:24 pm
Chris McDonough comments on World of Darkness at EVE Fanfest:

(http://newsbynight.net/vwpnews/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/chrisupdate.jpg)

 :rock: :rock:


Source: http://newsbynight.net/2014/01/12/chris-mcdonough-comments-world-darkness-eve-fanfest/ (http://newsbynight.net/2014/01/12/chris-mcdonough-comments-world-darkness-eve-fanfest/)
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Claudia Vonigner on January 14, 2014, 09:10:14 am
Still waiting for pics and proof, rather than people saying "it's great, it's great", and the only shit we get is stupid, badly dressed LARPish interpretative dance, fancy artwork (not even as badass as Bloodlines' !) and a trailer that shows just about nothing. Okay the "in game footage" looks nice, but the quality of it and the textures look as good as my old Abe's World' intro scenes. (well to be fair that video with the empty, dead city was way too clean to be Darkness-ish, but I'm not being objective ; and both girls walking and clothing textures, it's nice, but it's FIVE YEARS OLD).

I'm still waiting for the REAL shit. Like, code, gameplay, mechanics, clans, sects, use of disciplines in game, in dialogues, STs, NPCs, AI, Campaigns, sandboxish for me to play with my players as a tool for DMing, mortals, how to treat influence points, Masquerade, one city, many cities, parralel cities, true cities, invented cities, politics, what's censored, what's not...
The only shit we have had since 2008 was "We aren't ready to announce that" or "That is still in review". Oh, and "there's going to be a Z Axis" (considering what AC has brought to the table, they better be DAMN GOOD at making the Z axis.. and what if I want to play non physical characters ?)



Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Nigama on January 14, 2014, 06:39:49 pm
Hmm.  So basically it's the same situation as last year.  Chris doesn't want to do an Eve Fanfest presentation and maybe CCP will make him put something together anyway. 

On the other hand, Chris is still promising the game is coming along, being tested and looks good. 

Maybe Fanfest, maybe this fall, or maybe next year we hear more something of substance.


Nigama
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 14, 2014, 06:42:19 pm
Bullshit It's a CCP product. Technically Dust isn't EVE.

Whoever makes these decisions or even enters lengthly debates about whether to show WOD stuff or not at the fanfest, seems to be spinning his wheels to justify his job.

They need to stop fucking around and get things in gear. Get an official site up. Get people interacting with other. Have monthly dev blog updates. Act like a game company and not some vaporware porn scheme.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: dbs on January 15, 2014, 01:20:13 pm
Bullshit It's a CCP product. Technically Dust isn't EVE.

It is however set in the EVE universe. I'm hoping that's not the case for WoD as well. :rofl:

There's a lot of things to be genuinely upset about, but Chris does make a very valid point - It's the EVE fanfest. There's obviously bias among us as fans, but the vast majority of the people attending fanfest not only don't care about WoD and it's progress, but a significant amount of them feel that the project is eating away at resources that could've (and has as we are sadly aware of) been used towards furthering EVE. Have you heard the questions that get asked at the Fanfest presentations?

Obviously the solution is easy - just start doing Grand Masquerades again, right? And I assume they would if the project wasn't currently stuck at the bottom of dev hell, iirc Pokethulhu said in that recent German interview that they intend to bring the GM's back as soon as they have anything relevant to reveal.

It's frustrating and really easy to start throwing your toys about, but if they say they are still working on it I'm inclined to believe them - The problem for me is just a case of how serious the project is being taken in general. Saying 'we are currently working on it and doing internal playtests' is great, but if the extent of that is still largely irrelevant it doesn't mean much. They've shown that the WoD project (and team) is seen as largely expendable which isn't really a healthy environment for developing a game.

I'm not expecting a big reveal this Fanfest (assuming it even happens), just based off of where they were previously and how they seemed to have progressed, but I am at least expecting to see some concrete proof that amounts to 'we take this project seriously'. I also think the coy act has gotten old, if you string a dedicated fanbase along for a year under complete information lockdown throw something meaningful into the fray - The dry jokes and self deprecating humour has gotten a bit stale Chris.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on January 15, 2014, 05:09:21 pm
Sure it's an EVE fanfest, but as a producer, if you don't see the value of showing you current fanbase for X game, the nitty gritty awesome of your NEW game.....to me that shines of silly. Lost opportunities.

Sure, they are totally different genres, but the people who love EVE and how it was delivered would more than likely have faith in a title they may not have tried otherwise.

Seems like excuses.

Perhaps a genius move would be to do away with EVE fanfest and simply call it CCP Fanfest to cover their entire range of products.

Their attempt to diversify has been sloppy at best.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Valamyr on January 30, 2014, 10:07:47 am
I have limited faith in promises things as ramping up now that we've seen a second large layoff. Less people let go this time around, but there was much less to cut, too.

It smells very vapory as we enter a 8th year of on-and-off pre-production with nothing to show for it. Meanwhile, the MMO competition is much stiffer than it used to be, people expect high quality products and great engine performance, not only for their money but also for their time. Landscape has changed quite a bit, to say the least. If CCP had finally a great  homegrown 1st person 3d engine that works well in a multiplayer setting and looks good (I continue to believe they're not anywhere that), they'd have resurrected WiS.

All options are on the table IMO, but if you asked me whats more likely between CCP slugging along to actually releasing a decent WOD MMO at the end of the decade, or them folding the project and selling the IP, at this point I'd reply "Heads or tails?"
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Rick Gentle on January 30, 2014, 05:16:38 pm
Sell it to Bethesda! Sell it to Bethesda!
Bethesda or the guys who made Metro: Last Light. I want to see that engine used to do a remake of VTM - Redemption with more better.

EDIT
Gearbox? Is that them?
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Valamyr on January 30, 2014, 07:15:40 pm
If they sold it to Bethesda to make SP RPGs with toolsets like TES and Fallout, I'd be all over it.

If its so Zenimax makes a MMO out of it, eh, it'd be a step up over amateur-hour-since-2006, but I'm not entirely sold. ESO is promising in some ways yet look very amateurish in others. Its still in beta and all that but still. There's a guild I've played MMOs with since EQ1, pretty damn hardcore bunch and admittedly hard to please, and they have a very negative view of the game after trying it out. Personally I had fun in the couple beta weekends I played but they raised alot of good points. I'm still planning on trying it, as my I'm a TES fan, but no pre-orders, Ill wait for reviews and broader community feedback.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Rick Gentle on January 30, 2014, 07:55:21 pm
I want to see how The Elder Scrolls Online plays out before I would want Bethesda to make an MMO out of the World of Darkness. I expected Bethesda to think further outside the WoW-box than what they've showed us so far; we need something honestly new for the World of Darkness MMO, both to set it apart on the market and to do justice to the setting. If they weren't starting with vampires, then it could afford to be more like your average button-mashing action-combat MMO with slicey-dicey, bitey-chompy werewolves or fireball-tossing mages.
But Bethesda Softworks' already proven their track record many times over with high-quality, well-playing, relatively bug-free massively single-player games. (Bug-free considering the size and complexity of the games.) Since Fallout 3, they've also proven that they're extremely welcoming to modders and keeping their game up-to-date with fixes and new content that keeps the quality of the base game.

But first, from anybody who has the IP, I'd like to see a remake of Redemption or Bloodlines so they can prove they've still got it as far as single-player games go. Even if the MMO version bombs, we'd still get a good game out of it that we can play and mod and reminisce about for years and years after its release.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Valamyr on January 31, 2014, 02:09:44 pm
Quote
I expected Bethesda to think further outside the WoW-box than what they've showed us so far; we need something honestly new for the World of Darkness MMO

Yeah, I know this is an EVE-with-fangs crowd and all, and I tried for a long time to convince myself I'd have fun playing the game you want, but I'm going back to my roots here: I want way more box than CCP hinted at a few years back. Now, we all know they've changed the game alot since and nobody is sure where it stands exactly, but I'm not going to enjoy WOD if its primarily sandbox and wholly rejects traditional progression and PvE challenges elements. I'm doing FF14 lately and its high end content is fairly challenging and its a blast. This is what MMOs were always about for me, and while I'm open to innovation, any game that tries to throw out the baby with the bathwater is likely going to bore me something fierce. So while I'm also careful about ESO, its certainly not for the same reasons as you.

For single player, I agree with you 100%. Beth makes awesome, highly moddable open world SP RPGs. I loved Skyrim, and they're working on Fallout 4 right now. If they ever have any interest in the IP, they have no proof to provide as far as I'm concerned on that front.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: phonixor on February 01, 2014, 12:16:40 pm
Having played ESO beta(stress test), I can definitely say it's not skyrim online... it sucks monkey balls currently... but I am under a NDA.. so I guess I can' t say much about it... least not in public... :p
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: MiloMalkavian on February 02, 2014, 10:50:26 pm

But first, from anybody who has the IP, I'd like to see a remake of Redemption or Bloodlines so they can prove they've still got it as far as single-player games go. Even if the MMO version bombs, we'd still get a good game out of it that we can play and mod and reminisce about for years and years after its release.

I agree 100%. People are still playing these games and modding them. I would love to see UbiSoft use the Assassin's Creed engine & mechanics to remake both. A 3rd person, free-roam, game controller interface (not point & click). Better graphics, historically accurate settings, shoulder button quick-wheel discipline menus, full map interactivity (open all doors, houses, etc), climb on stuff (even rooftops, but not in a "dash across the whole city" way. More like a creep through the 2nd story window for the stealthy players).
 
You could also use the "high-profile" and "low-profile" buttons for attacking disciplines vs. hidden/mental disciplines. 

The level designs and maps were great, just kinda sparse. I say keep what's already there, but add more side streets and shops. More beggars on the streets, people hanging around the taverns & brothels, etc. Prague had what...like 6 whole citizens?? Maybe more "filler missions" in between that lead up to the main story missions. Sorta like mini-prequels. Assassin's Creed did a great job with the underground dungeon/catacomb type missions, just use the engine and make a VtM:R mod.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PGM1961 on February 03, 2014, 08:42:52 am
Hey guys.  Haven't posted in a long time... got tired of the WODMMO being in limbo, and it's hard to stay interested in the same debate rehashed over and over.  Missed some of the people... didn't miss others.

Sounds like things are pretty much the same as when I was here last.  Another CCP layoff, vague promises but nothing solid that the fans can look at and say, "Gee, they really are working on this game!"  People get angry when you use the 'V' word (i.e. vaporware); but I am at the stage where I will only believe that the game will happen when it's released... and maybe not even then.  By that I mean that I might have to read a few game reviews before I buy it, rather than pre-order on blind faith.

I'd give a lot for a new single-player Vampire game, whether VtM, VtR, or a V20-style mashup of the two.  My feelings toward the MMO genre are not good, due to the few multiplayer games I've played in the past-- gankers, hack-n-slash RPG, etc..  I hope that the WODMMO manages to solve some of those problems, but I'm not holding my breath.  Someone earlier in this thread talked about having faith.  Well, I believe blind faith should be reserved for religion... otherwise, trust should be earned. IMO, CCP has not earned my our trust.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Nanaloma on February 04, 2014, 04:13:59 am
Ooh, ooh that smell!  Afraid I agree completely. 
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: dbs on February 04, 2014, 07:37:12 am
I used to not really get the whole 'sell the IP so someone can make another SP/Bloodlines game' thing, but as of late - Yeah, I see it. Considering how much people have got out of Bloodlines and Redemption, myself included, I really can't even fault the opinion anymore. There's obviously the risks involved with gaming being a very different beast now than it was, and the very likely possibility that a new Bloodlines would follow the same path as the new Thief (read, horrendous), but then you look at the work the TES etc. modding community does, not to mention the Bloodlines modding community itself and again - I get it.

As someone who's wanted this game for years and has been following it just as long, I don't get anything by wishing the game officially just gets canned, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to get excited at new pieces of 'good' 'news'.

I tend to just pop into the usual spots looking for news (Hah) now and then go about my day. I honestly feel Fanfest this year has to be something relevant for me to even continue caring at this point.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Nigama on February 07, 2014, 07:58:03 pm
Is there anything that we could do, as fans, that would really grab the attention of CCP in a positive way to get *THEM* excited about the WoD MMO?  And make other fans think we're awesome at the same time?  It could be online, it could be live action (at Fanfest, Grand Masquerade, or even Gen Con).

I'm open to ANY suggestions, but keep in mind it should be feasible and not a pie in the sky dream.  I figure if we're all at such a low about the game, CCP must be practically ignoring it.  If we could showcase our love and excitement for the IP, maybe they would become infected by it to some extent. 

 :chinscratch:


Nigama
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Claudia Vonigner on February 07, 2014, 09:28:55 pm
*shows how much money people have given to OP for KS of  o WoD books*

Nuff said.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Nanaloma on February 07, 2014, 10:19:42 pm
Is there anything that we could do, as fans, that would really grab the attention of CCP in a positive way to get *THEM* excited about the WoD MMO?  And make other fans think we're awesome at the same time?  It could be online, it could be live action (at Fanfest, Grand Masquerade, or even Gen Con).

I'm open to ANY suggestions, but keep in mind it should be feasible and not a pie in the sky dream.  I figure if we're all at such a low about the game, CCP must be practically ignoring it.  If we could showcase our love and excitement for the IP, maybe they would become infected by it to some extent. 

 :chinscratch:


Nigama


CCP:  "Look, they're excited again!  We can back burner this for many more years now!"
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Azz on February 09, 2014, 06:22:42 pm
I'll wait for you, WoD. I'll wait forever. ;_;
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on February 09, 2014, 10:23:15 pm
Bethesda aren't deving Elder Scrolls online. I wouldn't expect a traditional Elder Scrolls experience with the release. The massive sandbox people are expecting simply isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Rick Gentle on February 10, 2014, 07:39:01 pm
I'll wait for you, WoD. I'll wait forever. ;_;

Yeah... this waiting wouldn't be so bad if we were actually immortal...
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Nanaloma on February 10, 2014, 10:50:05 pm
I'll wait for you, WoD. I'll wait forever. ;_;

Yeah... this waiting wouldn't be so bad if we were actually immortal...

--- but then, we'd be RPing human games   :justabite:
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: _username on February 11, 2014, 12:05:49 am
Monster roleplaying as humans, for fun...

Robot Chicken: Dungeons & Dragons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKrUug8lHjA#)
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: Nanaloma on February 12, 2014, 12:52:46 am
 :rofl:
Title: Re: Layoffs at CCP Atlanta HQ, WOD MMO Affected
Post by: dbs on February 13, 2014, 10:33:13 am
Hilmar Veigar, CEO of CCP seems to be in Atlanta currently judging from his Twitter. I know more than to read anything into it though.
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal