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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?  (Read 2367 times)

Offline mouser9169

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How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« on: May 14, 2013, 09:08:42 pm »
Some disciplines should be fairly easy to implement - Obfuscate is just stealth. Thaumaturgy is magic (pick a few spells, maybe let the spells have levels, done), but how do you do Celerity?

In the single player game they used the 'speed up by slowing everything down' technique. But that won't work in an MMO. The only way to speed somebody up is to speed them up. That will make movement and combat much harder to control unless you've got great twitch skills.

It will be great for running cross country if we don't have mounts. Depending on how serious breaking the Masquerade actually is it may be great for running across town too.

So do you think Celerity will make it into the game in some form, and if so, how do you think they'll handle it?
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Offline Frothy

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 09:20:36 pm »
If they use cooldowns on abilities, it'll lower the time of the cooldown.
If they don't use cooldowns on abilities, you'll be able to make standard attacks faster(firing a gun, punching).
I expect you'll be able to move faster as well.

Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 09:20:56 pm »
"Badly"

Celerity should give a lower "recharging" and cooldowns times for skills (what is called Haste in WoW), as well as a bonus to Dexterity (so, more damage with certain weapons, casting bars for lockpicking shorter...)

Offline Valamyr

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 10:37:18 pm »
I'm guessing typical haste mechanics, yeah. Faster movement speed, attack speed, casting speed, shorter cooldowns.. maybe slight boni to defense, including vs bullets, like in VtR.

Thats alot of potential effects to pick from. Which of these makes most sense depends alot of the specifics of the combat system.

Offline Radical21

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 12:37:02 am »
I think Celerity will be modified in the sense that a Vampire's minds itself doesn't speed up, otherwise introducing Celerity + Celerity would be tricky.

Alternatively For Celerity to work movement need to be planned out virtually ahead of when it is actually committed :imagine an unseen Avatar emerging from where your actual avatar is and you can drive him to perform the action and movement you would want to do quickly as you would normally(for that short duration it looks like the character is standing in place), once execution commence your character perform the action super fast and its unlikely there will be time to respond correctly,
If someone else around has celerity they can see you 'pre-planning' the action using your ethereal avatar and can counter with their own celerity plan by doing the same.

You should also have the ability to just speed ahead in a burst of very fast movement that allow to put distance between you and the opponent.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 12:38:44 am by Radical21 »

Offline Nosferatu Numbers Station

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 01:31:45 am »
Another idea is that celerity develops in a different way for each tier (dot, level, w/e).  Like take those ideas like cooldown and increased speed and the like.  But also in a few skills of it's own.  Like something akin to a warp (think Mage skill Blink from WoW...sorry for referencing WoW ok more like Whirlwind Sprint from skyrim, that's better), like you could run so fast you could defy gravity and reach a designated area (like a mouse click) or as a dash of speed to avoid attacks or get to a gate before it closes.  This would work wonders for building top exploration if you can skip to an adjacent building without toiling with free-running and risking a date with the street and appearing on the headline news (or blogs) as the corpse that fell from morrowind.

Perhaps if they give disciplines synergy you can have additional abilities, like combining celerity and obfuscate to swipe an item without anyone noticing you taking it or fortitude and celerity to re/deflect attacks at cost of blood points.

Man I'm getting all sorts of new ideas for combos now.  Like Obfuscate/Presence allowing you to play ventriloquist and misdirect your speech pattern and radius (great for hushed conversations and misdirection).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:34:21 am by Nosferatu Numbers Station »
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Offline mouser9169

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 03:16:10 am »
Cool ideas :)

I was thinking about it a bit more. Two obvious things that come to mind are increasing the attack speed of melee weapons like swords, and the 'recovery' time between shots with guns. Those two things alone could make it a huge discipline.

Moving faster is also good, but I don't see any way they can approach the kind of speeds supposedly attained in Bloodlines - dodging bullets and stuff like that. Your character would just be uncontrollable. Double speed (aka haste) should be doable though, and in an MMO, that's pretty damn powerful (ie: OP) as it is - more than enough to have people screaming for the nerf bat in PvP. Longer jumps as well - a few places that comes in handy in Bloodlines, and I'm sure they could work that into some dungeons for a 'shortcut'.

Combining disciplines has certainly been done before (think bard in Everquest). Not sure how far (or even if) they'll go with it, but there's some definite possibilities. 
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Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 09:31:33 am »
Celerity, for all its power, is still a "burst" Discipline: you activate it and pay your blood, you perform your action, and then the effect ends. One blood point = one turn of power. Sure, you can "spam" Celerity in tabletop and make it seem like it's a continuous power, but that's really just adding a new application of the power to the tail end of the previous application, like this:

>====== >====== >======

So in these terms, I think Nossie Numbers' idea about the Whirlwind Sprint from Skyrim makes the most sense for the movement aspect of the power. You could simulate "long-distance" Celerity running by spamming the power, but this would allow for greater control (zoom this way in one application, then go zooming off at an angle the next application), make it more difficult to hit with any ranged weapons (whether they do targeting or free-firing; Celerity would give a bonus to Dodge-equivalent defense while you are zooming, and obviously a zoomer would be harder to target with free firing), and allows for parkour-ing around, especially in conjunction with Potence. Celerity would be the power used to gain horizontal distance, while Potence would determine vertical distance. I would hope having Celerity movement work in this way would also severely reduce the load on the server and not cause rubber-banding, lag, or have to affect any body else's movement or movement speeds.

For combat purposes, Celerity could indeed be used to increase attack speed - but it would require two separate applications of the power. So Application #1, you zoom in to melee range, and then Application #2, you attack your target twice, or gain a bonus to attack speed. Then the application ends. While this would not prevent spamming the power (zoom in, attack twice, zoom away to avoid retaliation), it would cost a HELL OF A LOT OF BLOOD, and it would only be useful against people whose characters have low Initiative-analogues for mechanics, or slow reaction times in free-fring. (And the slow reaction time would be a fault of the player, not the mechanics of the game, so it's still "balanced".) Once a player knows how Celerity works, it should be easily possible to predict where a vampire will end up at the end of the power ("They're zooming from Point A at X angle, so they will arrive at Point B... NOW! I shoot at Point B and score a hit!")

Celerity should not affect the firing of guns in any way. The mechanical systems of the gun are completely separate from the vampire's body, and thus not affected by their Disciplines. The only use Celerity should have with guns is enabling faster reloading speed while Celerity is active, which can still be an extremely powerful and useful application of the Discipline.

Mechanically, Celerity could either have standard distances for zooming/Whirlwind Sprinting (at 1 dot, they zoom 3 meters; at 2 dots they zoom 5 meters, etc), or it could be determined by how long you hold down the activation button. Activate the power, and then single-click your movement key - you zoom a short distance. Activate the power, and hold down the movement key - you zoom a longer distance. In this case, each dot of Celerity would extend the time the Discipline was active, allowing you to zoom further. I would still say that if you wanted to make more but shorter zooms, it would take a re-application of the power, costing more blood.

I don't think there's really a way to PREVENT Celerity from being uber-annoying to people who don't have it, but it can be controlled and balanced. As long as Potence and Fortitude still compare, it should all be good.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 09:40:11 am by Rick Gentle »
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Offline Valamyr

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 04:26:07 pm »
Quote
Celerity, for all its power, is still a "burst" Discipline: you activate it and pay your blood, you perform your action, and then the effect ends. One blood point = one turn of power

This is true in P&P and in CRPGs so far, but it's by no means a guarantee that's exactly how they'll implement it in the MMO. They're going to be taking alot of creative license with disciplines to make sure they are correctly balanced.

Both the inability to use time slowdowns ala Bloodlines and the fact that it has the potential to be quite overpowered means that they might make changes to it. Weakening the effect but making it last longer isn't impossible at all.


Offline mouser9169

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 05:27:41 pm »
the fact that it has the potential to be quite overpowered

"Speed Buffs" are about the most unbalancing thing you can introduce to a PvP game: One player has a sword, the one with the speed buff just 'kites' him around, never letting him in range to have a shot. I'm not saying that to mean Celerity won't or shouldn't be in the game, especially with all the 'distance' attacks (read: guns) and disciplines to help overcome that obstacle, but it will be one of the more 'precarious' balancing issues.

The whole guns vs. magic vs. melee thing is another thing that will be rough to balance - especially if they give the type of 'terrain' that they did in bloodlines. Will you be able to climb a fire escape and shoot down on people below? The line between 'smart use of terrain' and 'griefing' isn't always a clear cut one. You're gonna piss people off no matter which side you come down on.

I bring that last point up with regards to celerity because that allowed you to 'jump' to a few places you otherwise wouldn't be able to reach. Those are the sort of things that give griefers wet dreams.
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Offline Nosferatu Numbers Station

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2013, 05:55:08 pm »
"Speed Buffs" are about the most unbalancing thing you can introduce to a PvP game: One player has a sword, the one with the speed buff just 'kites' him around, never letting him in range to have a shot. I'm not saying that to mean Celerity won't or shouldn't be in the game, especially with all the 'distance' attacks (read: guns) and disciplines to help overcome that obstacle, but it will be one of the more 'precarious' balancing issues.

The whole guns vs. magic vs. melee thing is another thing that will be rough to balance - especially if they give the type of 'terrain' that they did in bloodlines. Will you be able to climb a fire escape and shoot down on people below? The line between 'smart use of terrain' and 'griefing' isn't always a clear cut one. You're gonna piss people off no matter which side you come down on.

I bring that last point up with regards to celerity because that allowed you to 'jump' to a few places you otherwise wouldn't be able to reach. Those are the sort of things that give griefers wet dreams.

With griefing the safe bet for combating it is not to remove it, but to set a line that can't be crossed.  Smart usage of environment is a good form of tactic and ability, but defying environment is a big no-no.  Distance won't matter too much if they are doing the free-running/parkour idea, but if they can manage to glitch through walls and other obstacles than it becomes a problem.  With something like celerity, I can see that being a problem if the speed allows them to glitch the gravity set in the virtual world and gain access to parts of the world that weren't meant for travel....assuming they haven't gotten stuck in a wall.  One only needs to look at TF2 and battlefield griefing vids to know what I'm talking about.

They'll never be able to create a perfect system, so best they can do is wall off what they can't fix.   Aren't Betas grand in that regard?  :justabite:
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Offline Frothy

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 11:06:10 pm »
the fact that it has the potential to be quite overpowered

"Speed Buffs" are about the most unbalancing thing you can introduce to a PvP game: One player has a sword, the one with the speed buff just 'kites' him around, never letting him in range to have a shot. I'm not saying that to mean Celerity won't or shouldn't be in the game, especially with all the 'distance' attacks (read: guns) and disciplines to help overcome that obstacle, but it will be one of the more 'precarious' balancing issues.

The whole guns vs. magic vs. melee thing is another thing that will be rough to balance - especially if they give the type of 'terrain' that they did in bloodlines. Will you be able to climb a fire escape and shoot down on people below? The line between 'smart use of terrain' and 'griefing' isn't always a clear cut one. You're gonna piss people off no matter which side you come down on.

I bring that last point up with regards to celerity because that allowed you to 'jump' to a few places you otherwise wouldn't be able to reach. Those are the sort of things that give griefers wet dreams.
I see nothing wrong with using Celerity to kite melee people.
Not everyone is going to have celerity, and those that do will be able to counter it pretty effectively.

In regards to griefing:
I hope they take the standpoint of "If there's a PVP solution to the problem, it's not griefing."

Offline Valamyr

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 11:34:46 pm »
If someone kites you, reach for your gun.

A vampire shouldn't be restricted only to melee or ranged attacks. That's "build logic" kicking in again.

Sure, most characters will be a little better at one rather than the other, but I really hope they don't try to enforce super-specialization here.

Offline Frothy

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 12:12:25 am »
Yeah pretty much.
It's not like there's going to be a class that has special skills for melee/ranged attacks.

There'll be the Tremere, but that's a clan, not a class, and they won't have to take thaumaturgy(Although, it'd be pretty stupid not to, tbh).

I can't wait until they start releasing expansions with other supernaturals.
I expect either Hunter: The Reckoning, or Werewolf: The Apocalypse will be the first addition.
I hope it's WW:TA.
I totally want to run around as a Get Ahroun tearing up leeches.

Offline Valamyr

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Re: How do you think they'll handle Celerity?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2013, 12:48:43 am »
Quote
It's not like there's going to be a class that has special skills for melee/ranged attacks.

To be honest, we don't know that yet, depends on how true to PnP they want to be.

And yeah, some Clans have certain edges in that department. Gangrel claws, for instance, and if they go with a Bloodlines-like interpretation, Auspex could help with guns, etc.

But even a Gangrel finds a gun useful sometimes and everyone wants close-combat options.

 

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