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Cancelled or Suspended Projects => WOD MMO General Discussion => Topic started by: N30V3N0M on February 14, 2014, 03:18:59 PM

Title: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: N30V3N0M on February 14, 2014, 03:18:59 PM
Came across this article!

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/14/world-of-darkness-drawing-inspiration-from-sandbox-survival-game/ (http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/14/world-of-darkness-drawing-inspiration-from-sandbox-survival-game/)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Signothorn on February 14, 2014, 05:39:32 PM
Thanks for posting this. It must be a news release day for WOD, because this article also came out. Not trying to hijack the thread, they are basically the same article, only the RPS article has more detail, so I'm posting it in the same thread.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/02/14/ccp-taking-cues-from-dayz-rust-for-world-of-darkness/ (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/02/14/ccp-taking-cues-from-dayz-rust-for-world-of-darkness/)

Also, CCP CEO Hilmar Pétursson responded to a tweet while he was in visiting the Atlanta office:

https://twitter.com/Sorrosyss/statuses/433875143480582144 (https://twitter.com/Sorrosyss/statuses/433875143480582144)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Lev Ivanov on February 14, 2014, 07:44:15 PM
"Hilmar Veigar:@Sorrosyss it looks stunning"
That's very... vague..

@ rockpapershotgun article:

Hilmar said that they laid off those people because a smaller team works better..
Usually a bigger team means progress will be faster, no?
"Pétursson suggested that we can probably expect to see something at EVE Fanfest in May."
Let's hope that they DO show us something, we may be vampires but we don't like being kept in the dark for so long..

@ massively article:

These guys say that CCP "assured" that there will be a WoD presence at the fanfest in may.. this is getting very confusing.. who should we believe?
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: N30V3N0M on February 14, 2014, 08:45:30 PM
Interesting article.  In my opinion, CCP should look at Bloodlines for a source of inspiration as well.   :D  I've never played DayZ or Rust though.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: dbs on February 14, 2014, 10:26:58 PM
These guys say that CCP "assured" that there will be a WoD presence at the fanfest in may.. this is getting very confusing.. who should we believe?

It's just CCP being coy. I think it's pretty much confirmed we are getting a presentation of some sort again this year, but the question should rather be what we can expect to see instead. They seem to still be up in the air regarding a lot of the gameplay mechanics - Here's hoping they've made progress on the technology itself.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Lev Ivanov on February 15, 2014, 02:57:47 AM
It's just CCP being coy. I think it's pretty much confirmed we are getting a presentation of some sort again this year, but the question should rather be what we can expect to see instead. They seem to still be up in the air regarding a lot of the gameplay mechanics - Here's hoping they've made progress on the technology itself.

If they do the same thing as last time(remember that video they only played for the people that were physically there?), everyone who is not there will have to relay on whatever somebody remembers of what was being shown on screen.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on February 15, 2014, 06:08:44 AM
I'm okay with sandbox survival as long as it DOES NOT mean that everybody will be perma-death-enabled from the start and lose all their gear on death.
Some gear/money loss, sure. (Drop your currently-wielded weapon? Makes sense. "Pry it from their cold, dead fingers" and whatnot. But all my weapons, armor, gear, and ammunition? No thanks.) And it's always fun to punish those people who carry about $1,000,000 in cash on their person. (Drop 50% of your cash on death? Sure! THAT'S the real reason vampires cultivate bank accounts, friend.) Dropping gear and money on death would make it so that you have to hire an effective courier to haul your stuff around, instead of just any old schmoe transferring items between main and alt in your normal You Have To Declare For PvP MMO.
I don't think CCP is exactly worried about a tough learning/progress curve in their MMOs, but still... an open sandbox survival game is tough on the newbs. If they want a game that's going to see consistent growth down the years, then newbs need to have some advantage going for them, because the "First Generation" of vampires will quickly out-class any new character.

But games like DayZ are hard enough on players when you have more-or-less equal footing. I.e., all the players are human and all are subject to getting shot in the head. If they had a game exactly** like DayZ with mixed vampires and humans... Well, you better be a masochist to play a human. A patient and unambitious masochist.

**before you say it, no, I don't expect the World of Darknes to turn out anything EXACTLY like games like DayZ. That was a hypothetical situation, and should scale based on how similar the World of Darkness actually turns out to be.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on February 15, 2014, 04:13:31 PM
Rick sounds like you are too mild to play survival games.
I'm all for perma-death or at the very least losing all on death. The last thing I want is all sorts of people running in game feeling like they have nothing to lose...

To illustrate this lets take DayZ vanilla(bestselling game on steam btw) as an example vs DayZ Epoch variant :

In DayZ you lose all equipment and items when you die: If you are lucky and knowledable you can hide stashes and tents to stash your valuable gear so it won't be lost if you die (of course other players can steal from these so concealing them well enough and preventing other players from finding the tents/stash is the tricky part and even if you craft traps it doesn't always help)
Since the tools to build a tent or stashes are not that easy to come by and they are not 100% reliable most players are very careful not to die and in many cases prefer to avoid initiating risky combat unless they have a distinct advantage (and even then its not always a good idea because a newb with a crowbar can still be dangerous when cornered)

In DayZ Epoch the rules are slightly different: players can have an indestructable safe to stash stuff in, as well as lockable vehicles they can park in safezones, they can even build bases and protect them with keycode so the options to perserve and stockpile possessions are abundant, especially for "endgame" players so even if they die and lose all their possession they can simply walk into their arsenal and get more stuff.
The result is that Epoch eliminates most if not all of the survival element from the game: many endgame players do not hesitate to act recklessly or to KOS anyone they see because even though there is perma-death there is still relatively very little to lose if you have a safe full of goodies no one could possibly steal.

I agree that losing a character you like sucks at first glance, on the other hand if its that easy to accumulate power , people are far more likely to squander it or to start conflicts and most of the element of politics and tension is lost.

50% of your cash on death? there is no rational there and players would stop caring about what they choose to carry on their person( most of us rarely ever carry over 100$ in cash for that reason, because we know we can get mugged and even losing our credit card like that can be dangerous if we do  not cancel it in time)   Since WoD strive to mirror the real world that way I really don't why they should change it for an MMO.

the success of DayZ proves that people are more afraid of the idea of Perma-death while in reality it makes the game more immersive and exciting and progression is not the primary reason people enjoy roleplaying games(especially Vampire where progression is typically intentionally limited for the sake of immersion).

If you are still that fearful of losing your stuff you can always buy insurance probably.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: ush on February 15, 2014, 07:41:02 PM
I've been thinking recently about how gaming tends to have this retarded binary attitude towards violence, there's only two choices, kill or dont. It's pretty limiting and doesn't really reflect how socieities work, even theoretical vampiric societies.  It would be much more interesting to have a mechanic where you can resort to violence without killing if thats what the situation calls for


As for the good news, that ccp are having their heads turned by new developments/fads in MMOland, it speaks volumes about where they are in the development cycle after 9 years. Not good at all
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Signothorn on February 15, 2014, 09:04:31 PM
I've been thinking recently about how gaming tends to have this retarded binary attitude towards violence, there's only two choices, kill or dont. It's pretty limiting and doesn't really reflect how socieities work, even theoretical vampiric societies.  It would be much more interesting to have a mechanic where you can resort to violence without killing if thats what the situation calls for


As for the good news, that ccp are having their heads turned by new developments/fads in MMOland, it speaks volumes about where they are in the development cycle after 9 years. Not good at all

I agree to an extent, but I think it would be better if you had the ability to destroy a target politically, not just hack and slash with a side of disciplines. MMO's need to evolve drastically. Looking at the Elder Scrolls Online, it's not too much different than what you'd expect from any MMO, a poor attempt to port an immersive single player experience into a MMO format. I worry about this with regard to the WoD MMO. We've had great storytelling in the SP versions of Redemption and Bloodlines, along with ST controls in Redemption. However, I don't see CCP really communicating their vision of how they intend to carry it out with any consistency, or really coming out and saying they know what they intend to do. They are looking for inspiration in other games, it's not inherently bad, but I'm not sure if they know what to do with the MMO after years of dithering. I hope I'm wrong. Glad they are starting to talk about it again however, hope it continues semi-regularly now that the dust514 has settled.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on February 15, 2014, 09:10:41 PM
Radical21's assessment is accurate; I am your average mild-mannered alter-ego. That would be the reason I don't play survival games. If they made the WODMMO like DayZ with fangs**, I would not be willing to play it. But I am willing to bet that the reason games like DayZ are popular is that it's still pretty easy to "recycle" a character and get a fresh start. Survival sandbox games strike me as being in the same vein as your average deathmatch game taken to an extreme scale. It sounds like you can die just about as easily, too.

**but I still don't think they're going to

But when we're talking about vampires, we're not talking about easily-recyclable bots or a world where you can run around killing people for their gear. Unlike DayZ, there ARE rules in the World of Darkness, like your average laws (don't kill people in the streets, don't steal stuff off the street). If you want to talk about realism of setting and how it works with survival sandbox, you can't have both to the same extent as DayZ because the World of Darknes is a tough, unforgiving system - but it's not anarchistic or quite as dog-eat-zombie-dog as DayZ.

When we're talking about vampires, we're talking about entities with a lot more to lose than money and gear. If they want to make the World of Darkness more survival-esque, then losing these things makes sense (see above) and still punishes people for being reckless without losing EVERYTHING. Permanently. Because somebody had a loose trigger finger or didn't want to play by the "rules".

EVE Online strikes a nice balance between your classic PvP set-up and survival sandbox - if you choose to risk your ship and character, then you still die and lose quite a bit - some skills, some assets, and a whole lot of ISK to replace what you lost. People still don't want to die, and there's a lot of dancing around the issue of going to war, and ensuring your allies have your back, and generally the things we want to see in the WODMMO. If they wanted to translate those PvP mechanics directly over to the WODMMO, that I would be okay with, because it would be a choice of how hardcore you wanted to play.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on February 15, 2014, 11:16:23 PM
I've been thinking recently about how gaming tends to have this retarded binary attitude towards violence, there's only two choices, kill or dont. It's pretty limiting and doesn't really reflect how socieities work, even theoretical vampiric societies.  It would be much more interesting to have a mechanic where you can resort to violence without killing if thats what the situation calls for


As for the good news, that ccp are having their heads turned by new developments/fads in MMOland, it speaks volumes about where they are in the development cycle after 9 years. Not good at all

There is a mechanic like that in the new Dayz Standalone where you can take another player prisoner and do what you want to them without killing them.
 This is encouraged by the developer by giving the standalone the unrealistic feature: when you kill someone outright all the equipment that was on them is destroyed.

Sometimes with players trade also seems more worthwhile to get what they want in a safe way despite the fact that they could kill each-other.

The binary of life is what introduces the concept of risk, without it there would be chaos because everyone would be untouchable, this goes much further than killing really because killing becomes a risky activity: the last resort.

Radical21's assessment is accurate; I am your average mild-mannered alter-ego. That would be the reason I don't play survival games. If they made the WODMMO like DayZ with fangs**, I would not be willing to play it. But I am willing to bet that the reason games like DayZ are popular is that it's still pretty easy to "recycle" a character and get a fresh start. Survival sandbox games strike me as being in the same vein as your average deathmatch game taken to an extreme scale. It sounds like you can die just about as easily, too.

its only easy in the sense that there is no RPG progression but otherwise its really not in vanilla because finding weapons and good gear is not that easy.

I wouldn't call it a deathmatch game because the gameworld is vast and you do not have to kill each-other to gain score. And yeah if you are reckless you can die fast, most often the zombies or disease get you before the other players do in that case.

For the rest in WoD you can kill someone as much as in DayZ, there is no need to have hard-coding change that. its all about what you have to lose if you try to go there which is why WoD have so much intrigue and less direct way to go about it: there is really no need to code hard restrictions into WoD for that to remain true.

What WoD has that DayZ doesn't is the mafia element: Vampires typically relay on eachother because of the Sire-Childe bond and the Masquerade so there are plenty of incentives not to try and mess with other Vampires so overtly , because if you do, someone somewhere would probably come after you
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Acleacius on February 19, 2014, 06:56:25 PM
Oh great, now they are making a pvp gank fest.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Alexander Drayson on February 21, 2014, 04:00:16 AM
While I applaud them for looking at things like Rust and DayZ, I do encourage them to do what those types of games aren't doing at the moment: give players a means of creation to complement their powers of destruction.

These Survival type games are both in pay-to-access Alpha, and as such lack a significant amount of intended features that will be added at a later date.  As of this moment, there are no meaningful in-game incentives to band together unless you're playing with an RL friend(s).  You cannot currently create anything in the long term in these games, whether it's the case of DayZ in that there are no features to mold the sandbox or in the case of Rust where hacking and other troublesome behaviors have led to a general laissez faire dog-eat-dog community.  A growing number of people I've found that enjoy these games in their present state are those that play on Private Servers that can be more accurately moderated and have a stable community.  I play on servers like this quite frequently and the banditing and PVP are still there, but the moderation gives them purpose.  They rob and kill with reason, not just for the lulz of it all.

WOD can have this same dog-eat-dog attitude towards PVP; in fact, I encourage it.  However, unless a vast amount of meaningful ways to impact and alter the sandbox to our whim are included, people will simply go back to killing each other for fun: it's the only option they have in those Survival-type games at the moment, and it should not be the case for a living, breathing world.  In a perfect game, we'd be able to buy out another player's apartment complex and charge them more for the room.  Perhaps you could renovate an area in the barrens and take away all that easily-accessible food.  Maybe you can funnel money into the police department for increased presence in areas of the city.  Admittedly, such intricate levels of interaction are unlikely to be accessible to us anytime soon - but the principles of what such things allow are what the WOD and all these Survival Games need to strive for: Combat should be one of many ways to access, mold, and shape the game world.  If you cannot build,   if players are not given the powers to create, they will use their power of destruction by default: enter dull Kill-on-Site behavior-reinforcing game.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Acleacius on February 21, 2014, 07:01:17 PM
Maybe that's the problem with CCP, they have no clue about PvE, the most popular form of game play. So they are just automatically alienating the majority of gamers.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on February 24, 2014, 12:53:34 PM
Maybe that's the problem with CCP, they have no clue about PvE, the most popular form of game play. So they are just automatically alienating the majority of gamers.

'Maybe' he says.  :smile:

But thats only half the sob story. They're trying too hard to make their game a super-niche sandbox, yes, but more importantly, they're not trying hard enough to get an actual game out the doors in a reasonable amount of years. All they've got is a great IP.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on February 24, 2014, 11:14:18 PM
All they've got is a great IP.
Which is nothing to sneeze at. So many settings and IPs are turning to trash lately. As long as they continue to support White Wolf - I mean, Onyx Path -in producing more tabletop books, they can keep the name afloat. And perhaps more to the point, keep the fans afloat. The danger for them is that 1) we will probably still like tabletop better, and 2) this will lead to us expecting even more from the WODMMO.

So the sooner they get the WODMMO out, the better for everybody.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on February 25, 2014, 06:33:19 AM
Quote
As long as they continue to support White Wolf - I mean, Onyx Path -in producing more tabletop books, they can keep the name afloat.

Yeah, well. As much as I love WOD, I don't think the name is afloat anymore. WOD never achieved critical mass but 12-15 years ago, alot of people knew what it was. Requiem never had the mass appeal VtM used to have, its been a slow decline. Since the merger/buyout of WW, its become a niche PnP product. The very name 'Onyx Path' is only known to die hard fans. There's no mainstream appeal or knowledge. In market terms, the brand name has already lost alot of value.

BUT the IP is still frigging great on its own merits and could be resurrected if the stars were aligned. Which requires an insanely attractive MMO with mass appeal. Which, well, we aint getting anytime soon from the looks of it. I've made my peace with it awhile back, though I'm still hoping to be eventually pleasantly surprised. The notion that the WoDMMO could be a huge hit and draw new people towards the franchise and ressurect the PnP side, though, I don't think is possible with the design they seem to be aiming for. And, since 08 I've continuously had doubts in their technical ability to produce a decent homegrown 1st/3rd person engine, and these doubts still remain.

Its going to take alot more than new books to change my mind.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on February 25, 2014, 06:41:59 PM
I'll take what I can get. As far as gaming goes, names like Black Isle and Bullfrog (maybe even Sierra and, gods bless them, Apogee) are known only to the older diehard fans; but those companies made some of the greatest games I've ever played. I'm okay with niche as long as that niche keeps making stuff I like. And stuff I can actually get access to.

Interestingly, EA has revived Dungeon Keeper as a tablet application. (Go search for it. Go search for it now!) It's only superficially like the old Dungeon Keeper games, but if this new incarnation takes off, maybe they'll find it worthwhile to revive the idea of DK3. There has been a huge craze lately of reviving older franchises and even older styles of gaming. (And honestly, the 8-bit craze is starting to get annoying. There's retro, and then there's just laziness and being cheap.) A quarter of the games coming out "new" on Steam are one of these kinds - republications of old games, or games done in what the developers claim is a "retro" style. So if we can get a new game with modern graphics, but old gameplay in an old IP... I don't see how it could fail in today's market.
Sure, we're comparatively a niche community... But I remember when the original WarCraft players were "niche". (In fairness, though, that far back most of gaming was still "niche" and minority.) CCP and White Wolf have got to give themselves the chance to become more than niche.

The thing I'm worried about are the revivals of older franchises in new and weird incarnations. I am still not sure how I like what I've seen of Thief 4. The only two connecting points I've seen (not having played the game itself yet) between Thief 4 and previous games are: Garrett has a mechanical eye, and he's taken that little pickpocket girl as his apprentice. (And according to the trailers, she doesn't get that long a run as Garrett's sidekick.)
This is why sticking as true as possible to the old IPs and gameplay are important; not only do you not gain a whole new crowd of players, you've alienated the ones who were expecting more of the same quality.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: phonixor on February 26, 2014, 12:02:26 AM
Don't support ea with dungeon keeper for mobile... unless you like to pay to be able to mine your dungeon in less then 24 hours per block. ..
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Alexander Drayson on February 26, 2014, 03:05:08 AM
Just go to GOG.com and get DK1&2 on the cheap from there; plenty of fan patches and addons to make it a little more up to date, and no EA microtransaction bullcrap :)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: N30V3N0M on March 01, 2014, 06:53:40 PM
The only problem I see is what if the player just wants to focus on the PvE aspect of the game and doesn't want to even bother with PvP.  I don't know how a game that has survival as is primary focus will work, since DayZ and Rust are mainly PvP type games.  I think they should also look at games like SWTOR, whose story telling is top notch compared to MMOs I've played (this is my opinion).  And as I mention before, they can even look at Vampires The Masquerade: Bloodlines.  Yes, the game is not an MMO but I think it's a good action RPG game.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on March 01, 2014, 07:46:59 PM
Oh, I'm not PAYING for anything in Tablet Dungeon Keeper. But it's taking me forever to summon my third Imp. In DK2, you could summon 50 imps inside of 5 minutes. Ahh, the bad old days.

They had better be looking at VTM - Redemption and VTM - Bloodlines, not only for the storytelling, but also for the atmosphere and some gameplay. I really liked how they introduced hacking in Bloodlines, even if it was just a 3-second visual gimmick. Putting in randomized numbers and letters is significantly more immersive than just watching a progress bar fill up.
I'd also like them to take a long, serious look at maps like the Ocean House Hotel, the Abandoned Hospital, Grout's Mansion, Bishop Vick's Crackhouse-Temple, Andrei's lair in the Hallowbrook Hotel, and the [Hollywood] Sewers. Imagine how much scarier those places would be if they were actually dark.

From Redemption, they could take a lot of inspiration for PvE/themepark play, if they decide they want to add that back in. Imagine putting in a questline when they introduce the Sabbat, where the culmination of the questline is facing off against a vozhd, with some of the same tricks those monsters had in Redemption, like picking characters up and biting off their heads. And they weren't even actual storyline bosses. There were a lot of unique enemies in that game, and each dungeon had its own flavor. The Nosferatu tunnels were not a reskinned Bonn Silver Mines were not the Giovanni Warehouse were not the Cathedral of Flesh.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Leorgrium on March 21, 2014, 05:28:47 AM
CCP Games redesigned their homepage a bit to include Valkyrie in the main marquee bar that displays their products...Well, in the process of doing that they also updated the World of Darkness MMORPG banner image to a new (never before seen) WoD concept art image.  :rock:

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/Leorgrium/new-wod-frontpage-image.jpg)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Leorgrium on March 27, 2014, 10:03:31 AM
WoDGame.Ru is a nice russian fansite community for World of Darkness...
A russian user found out an ex CCP technical artist porfolio where you can see any screenshot and video of the tool development kit used for World of Darkness.

http://www.cskyking.com/ (http://www.cskyking.com/)

(http://wodgame.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/city6.jpg)



Source: http://wodgame.ru/2014/03/26/novye-utechki-obnaruzheny-v-portfolio-razrabotchika/ (http://wodgame.ru/2014/03/26/novye-utechki-obnaruzheny-v-portfolio-razrabotchika/)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on March 28, 2014, 06:33:18 AM
Look's pretty good... though that's gotta be only one borough of one city. On the scale of an MMO, even a smaller MMO, that's not enough room for serious Vampire: The Masquerade-ing around. Though you can compact a LOT into a space like that, it's usually easier to make 99% of those buildings empty/unaccessible just to save on space, loading times, and processing power.

Though thinking about adding sewer lines under all that, and having the sewers be accessible makes me salivate.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: dbs on March 28, 2014, 12:19:35 PM
http://www.decaturish.com/2014/03/game-decatur-companys-world/ (http://www.decaturish.com/2014/03/game-decatur-companys-world/)

Pretty much fluff, but I don't think anyone expects anything more these days - much less this close to Fanfest.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Leorgrium on March 28, 2014, 02:11:46 PM
A guy just posted  the following post on Vampire the Masquerade facebook group page:

"The guy I talked to about the Vampire MMO was Eddy Web. My converstaion went like this:

Me: Is this happening anymore or is the game dead? It seems like vaporvare with all the CCP layoffs and refocus on Eve and Dust.
Eddy: No, we are still hard at work on the World of Darkness MMO. Thanks for your interest!

Me: Thank god. Its Cam Clans only and Cam sect right? I like Anarchs myself...and I'd love to see Gargoyles as a playable bloodline but I'd understand if that doen't quite work given they don't look very human, can fly and their discipline of Viseratkia might be too hard to make work. But glad to hear its still going along. How can I find out more about the progress of the WoD MMO?

Eddy: We will be making announcements when we are ready. Thank you!

So yeah, pretty much same WW line. "You'll hear about it when it's ready."

Source: http://www.facebook.com/groups/2208364950/permalink/10152714953829951/ (http://www.facebook.com/groups/2208364950/permalink/10152714953829951/)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: dbs on April 14, 2014, 11:57:50 AM
http://imgur.com/a/geZcL (http://imgur.com/a/geZcL)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Leorgrium on April 14, 2014, 02:36:19 PM
http://imgur.com/a/geZcL (http://imgur.com/a/geZcL)

O_o

(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t31.0-8/1973465_10152119149663380_4179664518227811318_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: dbs on April 14, 2014, 02:36:58 PM
beep beep
http://imgur.com/a/cPk7q (http://imgur.com/a/cPk7q)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Leorgrium on April 14, 2014, 02:49:36 PM
is that real?
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: dbs on April 14, 2014, 03:02:28 PM
prealpha screenshots, not fake
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Leorgrium on April 14, 2014, 04:38:56 PM
It's gone :((((((((((((((((

http://www.ccpgames.com/en/public-relations/press-releases/article/77171/ccp-games-halts-development-of-world-of-darkness-mmo/ (http://www.ccpgames.com/en/public-relations/press-releases/article/77171/ccp-games-halts-development-of-world-of-darkness-mmo/)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Claudia Vonigner on April 14, 2014, 04:40:25 PM
Greater news !

I TOLD YOU SO :

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-04-14-ccp-cancels-vampire-mmo-world-of-darkness (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-04-14-ccp-cancels-vampire-mmo-world-of-darkness)

Now if only they'd release the code for us to play around with and transfer Bloodlines into it ?? :)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 15, 2014, 03:04:35 AM
First look at an in-game character model :)

Just after the project is canned!  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: snowbunny on April 15, 2014, 03:25:04 AM
Those in-game screens that could be seen today on Twitter looks to me like... so 2010. I very like the mood though.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 15, 2014, 03:39:02 AM
Those in-game screens that could be seen today on Twitter looks to me like... so 2010. I very like the mood though.

Yes, given the engine woes it was long expected that the graphics werent going to be revolutionary. Judging from these, improvements since the last batch of leaked screens awhile ago were minimal.

They still tried a bit after Black October but clearly achieved little, leading to this.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 15, 2014, 05:23:29 AM
... why would torpor restore your Humanity...?
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Yosiel on April 15, 2014, 03:45:09 PM
... why would torpor restore your Humanity...?

Yeah, trying to justify it with lore, mm "you had slept a little keeping down your beast urges", best I can think of. But mostly it should be a mechanic need, you can restore your blood from kine, but humanity is the resource you restore only with time or especial actions, keeping you from playing all day.

I.E.: Blackmail, Cost: Humanity 1, Blood:1 (2 using Presence) Benefit: Gain $75 ($150 with presence)

Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: dbs on April 15, 2014, 06:14:47 PM
Don't read too much into the screenshots on the gameplay and mechanics front. They went through numerous iterations/placeholder systems. The last one resembled EVE a bit with how you could queue skills while not even playing.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 15, 2014, 10:25:23 PM
The time-based progression system in EVE Online is the one of the things I would've like to see in the WODMMO. It's not a bad system to begin with, as it's common across all characters, and it's utterly fair since it progresses whether you're online playing or not, so it's you're progressing in the game as long as you're paying the monthly fee, instead of making it a giant grind-fest or finding a bunch of XP exploits.
It makes a lot of sense for vampire lore, too, since the older a vampire is, the more powerful it is. I think Twilight is the only series I know of that changed this, and they weren't even real vampires in those books, so... I laugh at Twilight.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Cahalith on April 15, 2014, 10:43:24 PM
... why would torpor restore your Humanity...?

Ah! I think I can explain this one! First you have to keep in mind the WoD MMO was set neither in the oWoD nor the nWoD, but it was kind of its own thing. In Requiem vampires have Blood Potency, the older you get, the higher your Blood Potency gets and therefore the stronger you are. Of course, a vampire with high Blood Potency eventually needs to feed from other vampires and, in Blood & Smoke (Requiem 2nd edition, guys, go read it, it's awesome!), the vampiric weakness penalties get harsher... so you need to go into Torpor every century and a half or so. During Torpor your blood thins and you lose Blood Potency.

I think this is what happened in that case: the more active you are, the more vampire-like you become and less human. Torpor would then theoretically help to keep your character less powerful, but human and safe from Permadeath. But then again I'm totally talking out of my a** here.

And yeah, as dbs mentions, we can only guess now what kind of system would've been in place in a released WoD MMO... oh, well.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 16, 2014, 02:18:51 PM
... why would torpor restore your Humanity...?

Makes perfect sense in a MMO. They clearly intended Humanity to be much more fluid than in P&P, and time being the only currency that matters in online games, it's a great match. Kind of thing that makes me think that they were able to design a proper game, even if they couldn't  deliver it.

Strongly doubt it would have had anything to do with power, though. Just a straight tradeoff of 'grief less, or spend more time in torpor/lockdown, or deal with low humanity consequences'. Would have worked well.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 16, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
My issue with that is that it doesn't make direct sense to have Humanity be a function of age. In either World of Darkness (though lots more in OWoD), there are a bunch of elders and even Methuselahs** who have respectably high Humanity - and they didn't torpor away their existences to regain it. To put it in simpler terms, just because a vampire is old doesn't mean they have lower Humanity. Just because a vampire is powerful doesn't mean they have lower Humanity.

**to name a few off the top of my head, Inyanga (Gangrel Elder), Rebekah (some Inconnu of Methuselah-level power), Theo Bell (not an Elder, but he's kickass), and of course Saulot (Antediluvian of the Salubri Clan).

So either they were also severely changing how Humanity works (and it worked pretty well to begin with; as a code of morality, you had to act in order to change it), or they made damn sure that every vampire in the game was going to have to lose Humanity at some point. Which doesn't strike me as appropriate or fair. If a vampire player WANTS to be nicey-nice, they should get that option. There are plenty of people around - and a couple on this very site - who want to maintain a LOW Humanity character, either because they want to portray being part of the Sabbat, or get in on the "null-sec"/pirate/PvP aspect of the game early. It seems doubly unfair to them if they have to enter Torpor to gain XP, AND it automatically replenishes/raises their Humanity at the same time. It would be acceptable if you could enter Torpor to EITHER spend your XP (as we saw in VTM - Redemption - you had to return to your haven and "sleep" to spend your XP), OR to regain Humanity (which to my way of thinking should be an actual time constraint, disabling that character for a while, depending on how low your Humanity is).

Given, it's an old screenshot, but these sorts of screenshots let us in on their modes of thinking, and the fundamentals of the game.
Completely off-topic, I saw a beta screenshot for Dawn of War 2: Chaos Rising, and the developers didn't even have the sense to make Chaos plasma guns the right color; it turned out that Chaos (much like the rest of the game) was half-assed and not well thought-through. So I'm a bit leery of alpha or beta screenshots that show weird or nonsensical things.

Speaking of screenshots, I vote that CCP release all the screenshots and beta-shots they have taken of the game to date. Scrub out the legally-sensitive bits, but let's see some screenshots taken from all those "internal testings". It can't hurt us anymore, and I'd like to see exactly how far they DID get with things.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 17, 2014, 01:41:23 AM
So either they were also severely changing how Humanity works (and it worked pretty well to begin with; as a code of morality, you had to act in order to change it), or they made damn sure that every vampire in the game was going to have to lose Humanity at some point.

Yes, exactly. That always has been the premise I was operating under. Humanity would have been alot more flexible in the MMO, likely you could have lost and regained points every week, instead of it being a 'slow spiral'. It would have been a mechanic to enforce a minimum of standards of behavior, with time off if you spiraled too deep.

Short term consequences, short term fixes, instead of the other way around. You may argue that hits flavor, but it would have been a perfect adaptation of the concept to the medium.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on April 17, 2014, 02:06:36 AM
In the DayZ server I play on Humanity is a flexible variable that exist in quantity:

Humanity < -1500 = Bandit skin : most people know you are a wrong-doer and many will not hesitate to KOS you.
Humanity >-1500 AND <5000 = Survivor skin : You might be a fresh spawn or a friendly guy, so other survivors are likely to leave you be or team up with you to increase their own survival chances
Humanity > 5000 = Hero Skin : You are most probably a good guy and other players are more likely to trust your good intentions.

You gain humanity by burying the corpses of your enemies and healing/curing other players.
You lose humanity by murdering survivors/heroes(the server can tell between murder and defensive killing) or eating the corpses of other players

(unlike WOD though, there is less importance on humanity because even though its slightly affect your reputation at encounters with other players, its mostly cosmetics and some survivors are assholes so you end up in situations where its killed or be killed and you are forced into losing humanity.)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 17, 2014, 02:31:25 AM
Nobody ever told me you could eat the corpses of other players... Is this a game-wide thing, or do you have to toggle it on for a given server?

See, but vampires are the creatures that can AFFORD long-term consequences with long-term fixes. This wouldn't have been an FPS or MOBA, where your stats are limited to the single match you're playing. Short-term consequences with short-term fixes would work a lot better with werewolves and especially mages, who are mortal (limited in lifespan) and are much more in-the-moment than vampires. Werewolves have their Rage (which gives the consequences), and can gain Gnosis ("fixes", or medium-term benefits). Visiting the Umbra after a day's hard slaying could lessen their Rage/restore their Humanity analogue/offer up a point of Gnosis.
Mages... Well, if you f*ck with the laws of the universe, the laws of the universe f*ck right back (short-term consequences), and then you have to figure out a way to fix the universe JUST ABOUT RIGHT NOW (short-term fix) before the universe squishes you.
Rage and Paradox sound like much more short-term consequence + short-term fix than Humanity does, to me.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on April 17, 2014, 03:12:58 AM
its a vanilla server with tweaks so this may be one of them, the humanity system was also made to be more balanced than in other servers (in some servers shooting bandits nets you humanity which is stupid).

For the record the server Im talking about is a persistent server that can support up to 50 users (but it has more than that) , players can build and destroy bases which takes a lot of time since finding and securing the materials for it is no easy task. The server has a restart ever 3 hours but it runs 24/7 with day/night cycle.
Since its DayZ death is unforgiving and the only thing you retain after death is the character's humanity rating.(if you have enough time you can still run back to where you died and recover stuff from your corpse if you are lucky and the guy who killed you was nice enough to leave stuff on it and let you loot it)
 
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 17, 2014, 11:56:39 AM
See, but vampires are the creatures that can AFFORD long-term consequences with long-term fixes. This wouldn't have been an FPS or MOBA, where your stats are limited to the single match you're playing. Short-term consequences with short-term fixes would work a lot better with werewolves and especially mages, who are mortal (limited in lifespan) and are much more in-the-moment than vampires.

Heh, even with the project canned we'll never agree on the basic concepts all MMOs must adhere to. I know most of this board wanted a game thats more PnP than MMO, but it just would have never flied. Online games must be satisfying to those who play them casually (the crushing majority), not just people who make their lives revolve around them. Thats why the basic template has gotten progressively less and less hardcore and grindy over the years. Mechanics like quasi irreversible damage to your character via hard-to-reverse humanity loss are verboten for good reason. Thats why they weren't going to include PnP humanity.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 17, 2014, 04:31:20 PM
I know most of this board wanted a game thats more PnP than MMO, but it just would have never flied.
It worked - and is continuing to work - for Dungeons and Dragons Online. It appears to be working for Neverwinter, even if 4th Edition D&D is complete shizzle. (Wizards, man, what happened to the WIZARDS?!)
Making the WODMMO the same or very similar to mainstream MMOs (World of WarCraft, RIFT, Guild Wars, even The Secret World) is pointless and damaging. At most, you need one or two MMOs with the same mechanics and type. Usually the only advantage a newer game has over the older game is improved mechanics, easier advancement, or  different payment model. Otherwise, there's no point in playing another new game (a third game of the same type) over the already-established, popular, and well-working older games. The phrase "Don't fix it if it ain't broke" comes to mind.

What we need is at most two or three well-working games of each type (and WoW, in spite of its flaws, shows no sign of slowing down), and then more new games of different types. When they came out, even the biggest massively multiplayer games were of a "new" type, or were the next step in one of the few already-established types.
If the developers had made the WODMMO of the same type as World of WarCraft with fangs, people would have come in, played it for a while, then said, "Eh, I'll go play WoW or RIFT. I can at least play something else than one race in those games."
And you seem to be consistently ignoring the fact that it was CCP who bought the rights to the WODMMO, and EVE Online is a sufficiently different type than any other MMO out there. Game companies tend to have personalities, and obviously CCP has chosen to be represented solely by the EVE paradigm. This means that if they had produced the WODMMO, it undoubtedly would have been more similar to EVE than WoW or another type of MMO.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on April 17, 2014, 07:38:45 PM
With all due respect to Dungeons and Dragons online , the whole D&D(and similar D20 system) are so different in gameplay than WoD there is no point in comparing even if they both use the same medium.
NWoD came closer to the D&D style but even then its more social/mystery than hack and slash in most cases...

MMORPGs like WoW, CO, STO , are designed mainly around the idea of hack and slash to get more XP and level up.

Think about it like this: If the D&D is the Grandfather of most mainstream MMORPGs, WoD would sire a different breed of MMOs simply because its idea of gameplay is different.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 17, 2014, 09:00:55 PM
Exactly my point and desire; let's have it so the WODMMO would've been the third member of the Second and/or Third Generation, to found a whole new Clan of MMOs.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on April 17, 2014, 10:12:07 PM
I think that to stay true to the source they need to release a mod-able toolkit that allow people to make private servers... kind of like how the DayZ mod sells..

after all I'm sure that most WoD fans wouldn't just let anyone into their games and every storyteller tend to twist the settings for their own needs and desires.

As it is I noticed that most real big MMORPGs offer surprisingly very little social interaction so having tried something like that with DayZ I can say that I'd rather have a server of a 100 cool players with active Admins than a 1000 people who only grind stuff( and never say anything aside from some obscure "WTS' or 'LFG' etc.)
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 17, 2014, 10:53:29 PM
See, if they were going that far, I'd prefer to see the WOD"MMO" re-conceived of as a single-player game with heavy modding and multiplayer aspects (like if they added multiplayer to Skyrim). So basically, a reincarnation of Redemption, only with much, much better multiplayer support. It was a hell of a lot easier to run a modded multiplayer Chronicle with those tools than almost any other game I've seen, with the exception of Neverwinter Nights 2.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 18, 2014, 04:37:56 AM
Quote
This means that if they had produced the WODMMO, it undoubtedly would have been more similar to EVE than WoW

I never ignored that, I know they were building a sandbox MMO, and there was just as much I liked about that concept than there is I hated. I loved the 'three spheres of play' philosophy, but I would have hated a pure sandbox. God knows what the latest plans were.

BUT one thing I dont believe would have ever made the cut was permanent losses. Be it real permadeath or humanity loss you cant repair, that stuff would have never made it to release, at least not any more than in EVE. You can argue in EVE there is "permadeath" but with cloning there is an effective workaround that means you dont really lose your character. Thats as far as a MMO can reasonably take things.

Besides, you see the screenshot as well as I. They -were- obviously going to give us a way to rather easily restore humanity, though we may never know what they intended humanity to BE.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on April 18, 2014, 07:00:49 PM

BUT one thing I dont believe would have ever made the cut was permanent losses. Be it real permadeath or humanity loss you cant repair, that stuff would have never made it to release, at least not any more than in EVE. You can argue in EVE there is "permadeath" but with cloning there is an effective workaround that means you dont really lose your character. Thats as far as a MMO can reasonably take things.


Which is why I hate most commercial MMORPGs, there are so many limitations that have more to do with mass marketing than with producing good gameplay.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 18, 2014, 11:07:18 PM
Ya Rad, I think to some extent we both know if either one of us thought an hypothetical WOD was the best game ever, the other would have been at least relatively unhappy with it.

I'm playing a Vampire in ESO right now and having a blast, even though the game needed quite a bit more polish and has some issues and it's absolutely a cookie cutter MMO, albeit one with pretty great PVP. Would I recommend it to you? Hell no, you'd hate it.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on April 19, 2014, 04:21:21 PM
I did try some ESO, I was under NDA at the time , I think its a good game for some parts (The Visual Design, Character creation, Combat and voice acting systems were impressive) , I can't say I like the P2W aspects of course: even though its subscription they still sell Digital Imperial Edition . The Story felt somewhat lame of course(in the tradition of Elder Scrolls the Story is the weakest part) but considering that it has Sandbox and decent combat I could still play it, even though I'd never choose it over DayZ, EVE or AC's:Darktide for example because it is far from being the perfect MMORPG in my eyes, its kind of like playing Morrowind online.
I know for sure that if I kept playing it I would have lost interest after a while though since the story they offer is really a tired gaming cliche and the PvP factions are preset so there is not enough social interest there.

When I played it , it was during early Beta stages so there were only a few people on , still I can't say I really interacted with anyone much though since most players were just grinding quests indiscriminately which I feel is the problem with that type of game: they have many players and they just run after PvE XP as though they were playing a Singleplayer game(they might join you as a silent partner to get extra XP) so I have to wonder what is the point of making it an MMO.

I'm kind of surprised you like it despite the sandboxish part of it, seeing as how anti-sandbox you tend to portray yourself.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 19, 2014, 10:51:02 PM
Imperials are hardly P2W, the best race for melee or range offense is Khajit for the crits, high elves for magical damage, argonians are the best tanks with quick to mend - the way they built racials killed class diversity for powergamers. Alot of the races offer bonuses that soft-cap easily, and the Imperial is particularly guilty of this, their big health bonus looks nice but the only racial they have that doesnt cap is Red Diamond which is just okay. Heres the breakdown of racials that never lose potency, not every race has one; http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/205731/what_racials_dont_correspond_to_a_softhard_cap/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/205731/what_racials_dont_correspond_to_a_softhard_cap/)
Quote
I'm kind of surprised you like it despite the sandboxish part of it, seeing as how anti-sandbox you tend to portray yourself.

I don't think it's fair to call me "anti-sandbox", a better way to put it would be that I'm against a game that's only a sandbox. Like I always said, I loved the idea of three spheres of play that they floated earlier in the WOD development, where you'd have your sandbox, your theme park and whatever they intended coffee shop to be. And I'd certainly still have spent the bulk of my time in sandbox content.

ESO's PvP in Cyrodill is actually more reminscent of DAoC's RVR to me than a sandbox, because there are clear "teams" (a real sandbox like EVE lets you turn coat anytime you like) - also ESO offers a complete theme park, which you can enjoy fully without setting foot in Cyrodill if you really want to miss the experience. ESO is a pretty traditional MMO experience. If you thought I didnt want WOD to be pure sandbox because I didnt like PvP that was incorrect, I absolutely do. I was just really hoping they'd implement decent character progression and theme park content too and some safe zones (Havens and Elysium being plenty, ESO has half the world blue), all things ESO provides even though it has some issues and the leveling is (way) too quick for my tastes. That's probably the element we always disagreed on most. You dislike 'grinds', whereas I even like pure-grind games like Diablo where you can still improve your stats after 1000 hours of gameplay.

The ideal MMO to me allows it all. Perpetual character progression, a reasonable amount of theme park content that includes both soloing options and difficult raids, and large open areas where teams duke it out to seize objectives that have some lasting importance.  Battling for control of domains, cities and titles in WOD could have suited this last sphere perfectly, but it would have been too narrow if that's all it offered. And one of the things you were right about, was that there was always some doubt on whether CCP could manage to deliver all I just described. Turns out they can't deliver any of it.  :irritated:
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on April 20, 2014, 01:15:29 AM
There is a problem with progression design: its not only caps , its also diversity and trying to make different progressions significantly effective while remaining different.
Otherwise you end up with everyone being godlike but cosmetic aside packing the same stuff.

Its why they tried the whole racial potency in Elder scrolls that is meant to bring interest to race selection and progression but like you mention it can backfire if overdone

 In WoD you don't have absolute best clan for something(except maybe Brujah)  because direct combat is not the center of the game, hence there are multiple avenues of progression that do not necessarily have to do with raw ability power: if that would have translated to game , who knows but I think that approach is more fun because it means there is diversity/personality.

Progession cannot become infinite however, if you do that you end up with a game in which either progession is not that significant or a broken game of some players being god-like and the rest of the players at their mercy.
Even if you say that PVP doesn't matter, finding excitement in such a game is rough
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on April 20, 2014, 03:23:56 PM
Quote
Progession cannot become infinite however, if you do that you end up with a game in which either progession is not that significant or a broken game of some players being god-like and the rest of the players at their mercy. Even if you say that PVP doesn't matter, finding excitement in such a game is rough

It depends. The example I gave is Diablo 3, probably not your cup of tea, but it does technically have infinite progression in both 'paragon levels' and the chance to improve your gear; even if its really good you could roll a slightly better item. There's still a plateau of power though. The exponential rise in the XP curve makes it difficult to progress past a certain point, and eventually the odds of getting upgrades are very slim. Once you reach that peak, your power level will be very similar to someone who played twice as much, because gains become rare and small and far in-between. You hit a wall of sorts at the peak of the curve, but the progression is still technically possible and infinite. A few PVP MMOs toyed with infinite levels, like Shadowbane back in the day.

Now Diablo's pvp is laughable (just a small area where you can fight each other without consequences nor rewards), but I've messed around in it with clanmates who played far more than I and held my own fine despite the fact they played far more because we've all reached the 'wall'. Any of us could still swat a dozen average players who haven't like flies though who simply haven't put in the effort yet. And that's a component that's increasingly missing in MMOs. I like games that force players to put in some effort if they want to play in the big leagues. That doesn't mean a lowbie shouldn't be given a chance to participate in PvP, but committed players should play on a whole other level. If equal/high end power is basically served on a platter after a very short leveling game (ex. Guild Wars 1/2), you end up with identical characters, level capped and geared identically, brawling it out much like in a FPS.

ESO suffers from superfast leveling syndrome, we're all 50 already. But at least there's still progression going on in various ways mostly related to itemization. And there is one thing to really aspire to, the equivalent of being crowned Prince in our hypothetical WOD; Emperor status. While Emperor you are immensely powerful, and even after losing the crown, you retain permanent bonuses that only other former Emperors can aspire to, and since there'll be only a handful of people to ever commit enough to reach and hold such status, that's the kind of mechanic that I like. Sets the dedicated apart from the peasants.  :vampwink:
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on April 20, 2014, 08:06:29 PM
The reason you play games like Diablo III(AKA Diablo: Casino edition) instead of games like Path of Exile for example, is still beyond me.
Shadowbane had the most unbalanced system I've seen in an MMO so infinite levels didn't help at all.
I'm not a grind-loving player so as someone interested in game design I ask myself if the idea of inifinite levels or levels is really such a good thing..

The concept of effort is somewhat vague since being bored while your character repeats the same action over and over is not exactly effort in my eyes even though it is painfully tedious and boring(and thus a part of the game I would skip without feeling guilty about).

Lets take DayZ on Zero Survival.net server : there are no levels but there is a big difference between a veteran and a newb : A veteran knows most of the places where the different types of loot spawns, he probably managed to build a base where he can secure vehicles,equipment and guns that are otherwise rare to find.
A newb starts with nothing and since in death characters drop all their stuff, the only way to really save gear is in either Vehicles or Tents or Stash(all storage  devices are destructable and lootable if found). Base building materials are rare so build a base is actually hard:Searching and find the rare materials , making a hidden storage in a place where other players won't find and loot and transporting the stuff to that hidden place where they could be saved is not easy either in most cases so i'd call that effort.
Securing a begginer's base is also difficult since its easier to break into.
At the  "Endgame" you have clan wars with sieges, raids on bases and trying to secure the four aircrafts.

Its true that a newb can find higher tier weapons or even the helicopter and use them but chances are he won't keep them for long due to the knowledge required to operate them and the space required to store them. 

The game has very limited content but I think it does a good job of keeping balance and being interesting without a leveling system.
The only problem is that after the "endgame" stage a player may end up at a point where there is not much to do aside from helping allies,  or trying to improve his record and infamy(to be the best on the server at something), I don't think levels would be a solution to that.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Leorgrium on May 02, 2014, 08:07:47 PM
http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/2/5674352/World-of-darkness-cancellation-CCP-Fanfest (http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/2/5674352/World-of-darkness-cancellation-CCP-Fanfest)

"We began with huge aspirations, wholly optimistic ones, which is often the case when you come from any success and you want to expand on that. And we’ve made many scoping [changes], changed direction and all that through the year, and the core experience has suffered for it, in a way. And it still had a relatively long way to go," CCP CEO Hilmar Veigar Pétursson told Polygon in an interview in Iceland during Fanfest 2014.

"And even though it is extremely difficult because the idea and the concept are terribly inspirational and powerful, we really had to be honest with ourselves. This is not trending towards what we were hoping or planning for in the beginning, and it’s better to stop now than to continue at this rate, at this pace, or making yet another change to the premise," he continued. "So, even though it was extremely difficult, this was the time where it’s OK, we have given it all we’ve got for now. Better to stop it, and company to go focus on the EVE universe."
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Rick Gentle on May 02, 2014, 08:12:21 PM
The WODMMO failed because they couldn't STOP focusing on the EVE Online universe... Starting up Valkyrie right in the middle of the WODMMO's development? Really?

CCP can make all the PR-acceptable excuses it wants: the fact remains that EVE Online players still have a game, and we don't.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Valamyr on May 02, 2014, 10:38:57 PM
I remember that morning when they announced DUST and many of us were expecting the announced to be WoD. If it had been, or if they'd just licensed an engine for ours too, we'd probably be playing it right now. Developing three games was too much for them. Trying to homebrew an engine too, forget it.
Title: Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
Post by: Radical21 on May 03, 2014, 04:56:06 AM
The WODMMO failed because they couldn't STOP focusing on the EVE Online universe... Starting up Valkyrie right in the middle of the WODMMO's development? Really?

CCP can make all the PR-acceptable excuses it wants: the fact remains that EVE Online players still have a game, and we don't.

Get over it Rick, it has become obvious that if the WoD community wants a game we are going to have to make it ourselves. and its not going to be WoD exactly because CCP sits on the license but that's ok, there are plenty of similar supernatural IPs they don't own, so it lets us know how far we are allowed to go on similarity to WoD. (because Vampire Diaries, Tru:Blood and Supernatural would have gotten a CCP lawsuit by now if it was forbidden)