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Author Topic: Good news regarding WoD Online!  (Read 13749 times)

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2014, 01:41:23 AM »
So either they were also severely changing how Humanity works (and it worked pretty well to begin with; as a code of morality, you had to act in order to change it), or they made damn sure that every vampire in the game was going to have to lose Humanity at some point.

Yes, exactly. That always has been the premise I was operating under. Humanity would have been alot more flexible in the MMO, likely you could have lost and regained points every week, instead of it being a 'slow spiral'. It would have been a mechanic to enforce a minimum of standards of behavior, with time off if you spiraled too deep.

Short term consequences, short term fixes, instead of the other way around. You may argue that hits flavor, but it would have been a perfect adaptation of the concept to the medium.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2014, 02:06:36 AM »
In the DayZ server I play on Humanity is a flexible variable that exist in quantity:

Humanity < -1500 = Bandit skin : most people know you are a wrong-doer and many will not hesitate to KOS you.
Humanity >-1500 AND <5000 = Survivor skin : You might be a fresh spawn or a friendly guy, so other survivors are likely to leave you be or team up with you to increase their own survival chances
Humanity > 5000 = Hero Skin : You are most probably a good guy and other players are more likely to trust your good intentions.

You gain humanity by burying the corpses of your enemies and healing/curing other players.
You lose humanity by murdering survivors/heroes(the server can tell between murder and defensive killing) or eating the corpses of other players

(unlike WOD though, there is less importance on humanity because even though its slightly affect your reputation at encounters with other players, its mostly cosmetics and some survivors are assholes so you end up in situations where its killed or be killed and you are forced into losing humanity.)

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2014, 02:31:25 AM »
Nobody ever told me you could eat the corpses of other players... Is this a game-wide thing, or do you have to toggle it on for a given server?

See, but vampires are the creatures that can AFFORD long-term consequences with long-term fixes. This wouldn't have been an FPS or MOBA, where your stats are limited to the single match you're playing. Short-term consequences with short-term fixes would work a lot better with werewolves and especially mages, who are mortal (limited in lifespan) and are much more in-the-moment than vampires. Werewolves have their Rage (which gives the consequences), and can gain Gnosis ("fixes", or medium-term benefits). Visiting the Umbra after a day's hard slaying could lessen their Rage/restore their Humanity analogue/offer up a point of Gnosis.
Mages... Well, if you f*ck with the laws of the universe, the laws of the universe f*ck right back (short-term consequences), and then you have to figure out a way to fix the universe JUST ABOUT RIGHT NOW (short-term fix) before the universe squishes you.
Rage and Paradox sound like much more short-term consequence + short-term fix than Humanity does, to me.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 03:26:33 AM by Rick Gentle »
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Offline Radical21

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2014, 03:12:58 AM »
its a vanilla server with tweaks so this may be one of them, the humanity system was also made to be more balanced than in other servers (in some servers shooting bandits nets you humanity which is stupid).

For the record the server Im talking about is a persistent server that can support up to 50 users (but it has more than that) , players can build and destroy bases which takes a lot of time since finding and securing the materials for it is no easy task. The server has a restart ever 3 hours but it runs 24/7 with day/night cycle.
Since its DayZ death is unforgiving and the only thing you retain after death is the character's humanity rating.(if you have enough time you can still run back to where you died and recover stuff from your corpse if you are lucky and the guy who killed you was nice enough to leave stuff on it and let you loot it)
 

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2014, 11:56:39 AM »
See, but vampires are the creatures that can AFFORD long-term consequences with long-term fixes. This wouldn't have been an FPS or MOBA, where your stats are limited to the single match you're playing. Short-term consequences with short-term fixes would work a lot better with werewolves and especially mages, who are mortal (limited in lifespan) and are much more in-the-moment than vampires.

Heh, even with the project canned we'll never agree on the basic concepts all MMOs must adhere to. I know most of this board wanted a game thats more PnP than MMO, but it just would have never flied. Online games must be satisfying to those who play them casually (the crushing majority), not just people who make their lives revolve around them. Thats why the basic template has gotten progressively less and less hardcore and grindy over the years. Mechanics like quasi irreversible damage to your character via hard-to-reverse humanity loss are verboten for good reason. Thats why they weren't going to include PnP humanity.

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2014, 04:31:20 PM »
I know most of this board wanted a game thats more PnP than MMO, but it just would have never flied.
It worked - and is continuing to work - for Dungeons and Dragons Online. It appears to be working for Neverwinter, even if 4th Edition D&D is complete shizzle. (Wizards, man, what happened to the WIZARDS?!)
Making the WODMMO the same or very similar to mainstream MMOs (World of WarCraft, RIFT, Guild Wars, even The Secret World) is pointless and damaging. At most, you need one or two MMOs with the same mechanics and type. Usually the only advantage a newer game has over the older game is improved mechanics, easier advancement, or  different payment model. Otherwise, there's no point in playing another new game (a third game of the same type) over the already-established, popular, and well-working older games. The phrase "Don't fix it if it ain't broke" comes to mind.

What we need is at most two or three well-working games of each type (and WoW, in spite of its flaws, shows no sign of slowing down), and then more new games of different types. When they came out, even the biggest massively multiplayer games were of a "new" type, or were the next step in one of the few already-established types.
If the developers had made the WODMMO of the same type as World of WarCraft with fangs, people would have come in, played it for a while, then said, "Eh, I'll go play WoW or RIFT. I can at least play something else than one race in those games."
And you seem to be consistently ignoring the fact that it was CCP who bought the rights to the WODMMO, and EVE Online is a sufficiently different type than any other MMO out there. Game companies tend to have personalities, and obviously CCP has chosen to be represented solely by the EVE paradigm. This means that if they had produced the WODMMO, it undoubtedly would have been more similar to EVE than WoW or another type of MMO.
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2014, 07:38:45 PM »
With all due respect to Dungeons and Dragons online , the whole D&D(and similar D20 system) are so different in gameplay than WoD there is no point in comparing even if they both use the same medium.
NWoD came closer to the D&D style but even then its more social/mystery than hack and slash in most cases...

MMORPGs like WoW, CO, STO , are designed mainly around the idea of hack and slash to get more XP and level up.

Think about it like this: If the D&D is the Grandfather of most mainstream MMORPGs, WoD would sire a different breed of MMOs simply because its idea of gameplay is different.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 08:08:15 PM by Radical21 »

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2014, 09:00:55 PM »
Exactly my point and desire; let's have it so the WODMMO would've been the third member of the Second and/or Third Generation, to found a whole new Clan of MMOs.
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2014, 10:12:07 PM »
I think that to stay true to the source they need to release a mod-able toolkit that allow people to make private servers... kind of like how the DayZ mod sells..

after all I'm sure that most WoD fans wouldn't just let anyone into their games and every storyteller tend to twist the settings for their own needs and desires.

As it is I noticed that most real big MMORPGs offer surprisingly very little social interaction so having tried something like that with DayZ I can say that I'd rather have a server of a 100 cool players with active Admins than a 1000 people who only grind stuff( and never say anything aside from some obscure "WTS' or 'LFG' etc.)

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2014, 10:53:29 PM »
See, if they were going that far, I'd prefer to see the WOD"MMO" re-conceived of as a single-player game with heavy modding and multiplayer aspects (like if they added multiplayer to Skyrim). So basically, a reincarnation of Redemption, only with much, much better multiplayer support. It was a hell of a lot easier to run a modded multiplayer Chronicle with those tools than almost any other game I've seen, with the exception of Neverwinter Nights 2.
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2014, 04:37:56 AM »
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This means that if they had produced the WODMMO, it undoubtedly would have been more similar to EVE than WoW

I never ignored that, I know they were building a sandbox MMO, and there was just as much I liked about that concept than there is I hated. I loved the 'three spheres of play' philosophy, but I would have hated a pure sandbox. God knows what the latest plans were.

BUT one thing I dont believe would have ever made the cut was permanent losses. Be it real permadeath or humanity loss you cant repair, that stuff would have never made it to release, at least not any more than in EVE. You can argue in EVE there is "permadeath" but with cloning there is an effective workaround that means you dont really lose your character. Thats as far as a MMO can reasonably take things.

Besides, you see the screenshot as well as I. They -were- obviously going to give us a way to rather easily restore humanity, though we may never know what they intended humanity to BE.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2014, 07:00:49 PM »

BUT one thing I dont believe would have ever made the cut was permanent losses. Be it real permadeath or humanity loss you cant repair, that stuff would have never made it to release, at least not any more than in EVE. You can argue in EVE there is "permadeath" but with cloning there is an effective workaround that means you dont really lose your character. Thats as far as a MMO can reasonably take things.


Which is why I hate most commercial MMORPGs, there are so many limitations that have more to do with mass marketing than with producing good gameplay.

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2014, 11:07:18 PM »
Ya Rad, I think to some extent we both know if either one of us thought an hypothetical WOD was the best game ever, the other would have been at least relatively unhappy with it.

I'm playing a Vampire in ESO right now and having a blast, even though the game needed quite a bit more polish and has some issues and it's absolutely a cookie cutter MMO, albeit one with pretty great PVP. Would I recommend it to you? Hell no, you'd hate it.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2014, 04:21:21 PM »
I did try some ESO, I was under NDA at the time , I think its a good game for some parts (The Visual Design, Character creation, Combat and voice acting systems were impressive) , I can't say I like the P2W aspects of course: even though its subscription they still sell Digital Imperial Edition . The Story felt somewhat lame of course(in the tradition of Elder Scrolls the Story is the weakest part) but considering that it has Sandbox and decent combat I could still play it, even though I'd never choose it over DayZ, EVE or AC's:Darktide for example because it is far from being the perfect MMORPG in my eyes, its kind of like playing Morrowind online.
I know for sure that if I kept playing it I would have lost interest after a while though since the story they offer is really a tired gaming cliche and the PvP factions are preset so there is not enough social interest there.

When I played it , it was during early Beta stages so there were only a few people on , still I can't say I really interacted with anyone much though since most players were just grinding quests indiscriminately which I feel is the problem with that type of game: they have many players and they just run after PvE XP as though they were playing a Singleplayer game(they might join you as a silent partner to get extra XP) so I have to wonder what is the point of making it an MMO.

I'm kind of surprised you like it despite the sandboxish part of it, seeing as how anti-sandbox you tend to portray yourself.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 04:30:39 PM by Radical21 »

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Good news regarding WoD Online!
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2014, 10:51:02 PM »
Imperials are hardly P2W, the best race for melee or range offense is Khajit for the crits, high elves for magical damage, argonians are the best tanks with quick to mend - the way they built racials killed class diversity for powergamers. Alot of the races offer bonuses that soft-cap easily, and the Imperial is particularly guilty of this, their big health bonus looks nice but the only racial they have that doesnt cap is Red Diamond which is just okay. Heres the breakdown of racials that never lose potency, not every race has one; http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/205731/what_racials_dont_correspond_to_a_softhard_cap/
Quote
I'm kind of surprised you like it despite the sandboxish part of it, seeing as how anti-sandbox you tend to portray yourself.

I don't think it's fair to call me "anti-sandbox", a better way to put it would be that I'm against a game that's only a sandbox. Like I always said, I loved the idea of three spheres of play that they floated earlier in the WOD development, where you'd have your sandbox, your theme park and whatever they intended coffee shop to be. And I'd certainly still have spent the bulk of my time in sandbox content.

ESO's PvP in Cyrodill is actually more reminscent of DAoC's RVR to me than a sandbox, because there are clear "teams" (a real sandbox like EVE lets you turn coat anytime you like) - also ESO offers a complete theme park, which you can enjoy fully without setting foot in Cyrodill if you really want to miss the experience. ESO is a pretty traditional MMO experience. If you thought I didnt want WOD to be pure sandbox because I didnt like PvP that was incorrect, I absolutely do. I was just really hoping they'd implement decent character progression and theme park content too and some safe zones (Havens and Elysium being plenty, ESO has half the world blue), all things ESO provides even though it has some issues and the leveling is (way) too quick for my tastes. That's probably the element we always disagreed on most. You dislike 'grinds', whereas I even like pure-grind games like Diablo where you can still improve your stats after 1000 hours of gameplay.

The ideal MMO to me allows it all. Perpetual character progression, a reasonable amount of theme park content that includes both soloing options and difficult raids, and large open areas where teams duke it out to seize objectives that have some lasting importance.  Battling for control of domains, cities and titles in WOD could have suited this last sphere perfectly, but it would have been too narrow if that's all it offered. And one of the things you were right about, was that there was always some doubt on whether CCP could manage to deliver all I just described. Turns out they can't deliver any of it.  :irritated:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 11:07:16 PM by Valamyr »