collapse

* Notice

Important notice (31 July): We have recently recovered from a nearly two day downtime due to an attack. No data was lost or stolen but the server has been reinstalled as a precaution. Please let us know if you encounter any issues. We apologise for the unacceptable inconvenience. Please read here for more information.

Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Eve FanFest - WoD  (Read 16827 times)

Offline Valamyr

  • Kindred
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1326
  • Reputation: +395/-17
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2013, 06:32:46 am »
But I fundamentally love character progression and i want it to be a big part of the game. In fact, if there was a thing I'd change about how it's typically handled, it would be to remove the notion of caps or growth ceilings, and allow more or less unlimited growth, with diminishing returns. Much like a VTM character.

Seconded. I'm also fine with increasing cost and not just diminishing returns.


Nigama

Oh, agreed. At some point you want to make sure there's a certain amount of balance and diminishing returns coupled with increasing costs eventually create a soft plateau.

Offline Claudia Vonigner

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Reputation: +22/-11
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2013, 12:18:19 pm »
I don't trust the average WoD player to control the actual world. I'd rather have community managers picked not by popularity but by skill, competence and actual, you know, ST capabilities. Most of the time, sadly, Larp organizers and many WoD players want speshul, moar awesome, moar dots, moar exceptions, and that's how we ended up with Revised edition to begin with. The Malkavian did not need Dementation, come on, a true Malk does a perfect job with Dominate, but "nooo the insane clan gotta have a speshul power that's more badass". Bleh. This shit made us end up with wtf like Factor Chaos, Diablerie in [enter here any city name] and of course Samuel Haight.

I want to play without it feeling like a job (unless I'm paid for it, which I already was once), and without it ending up like most VTM Larps : people being backrubbing on each other with RP in and out to oput together great NPC dialogues while most PC do nothing and simply don't have fun. That and the regular power playing between players (were it between characters I wouldn't mind, but I've seen sex in exchange for moar for one's character. seriously. proto goth assholes.)

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Reputation: +-1344/-52
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2013, 02:05:28 pm »
I don't trust the average WoD player to control the actual world. I'd rather have community managers picked not by popularity but by skill, competence and actual, you know, ST capabilities.

I tend to agree with most if not all of what you say but how do you evaluate Competence and ST capabilities assuming you don't have enough time to familiarize yourself with every candidate??

Offline Claudia Vonigner

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Reputation: +22/-11
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2013, 05:12:22 pm »
Thanks a lot for the agreeing :D It really warms my heart ^^

To answer simply your question : It's a recruitor's job :)
They'd need to hire a few people just for that purpose of basically "monitoring" the game and somehow, STing it a little (even if it's just to keep the community happy, and that means just about everyone, offering possibilities...). Of course the WoD being what it is, everyone has their own vision for it, and since the oWoD is so shaggy, everyone interpretates randomly (which is why I much prefer the nWoD system !). But consensus must be made, and clear rules (a scenarii bible as scripters call them) should be written so everyone actually plays the same game.

I have a problem with people portraying characters that have caracteristics they can't portray. Sure, physical traits are fine, I mean, I can say my STR 4 character lifts something super heavy that I can't lift.. but what about Intelligence, Wits, or even Charisma ? If the player doesn't have the charisma to talk in public, the character that has it is hindered by his player's skills. And rolling all the time and saying "there, my meeting with the prince should go well"... isn't really doing it :(


Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Reputation: +-1344/-52
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2013, 07:42:26 pm »
Thanks a lot for the agreeing :D It really warms my heart ^^

To answer simply your question : It's a recruitor's job :)
They'd need to hire a few people just for that purpose of basically "monitoring" the game and somehow, STing it a little (even if it's just to keep the community happy, and that means just about everyone, offering possibilities...). Of course the WoD being what it is, everyone has their own vision for it, and since the oWoD is so shaggy, everyone interpretates randomly (which is why I much prefer the nWoD system !). But consensus must be made, and clear rules (a scenarii bible as scripters call them) should be written so everyone actually plays the same game.
I don't mind being agreeable when I have reason to and I don't mind admitting when I discover I am wrong either, like I did in chat.

Paying people doesn't ensure they're competent or unbiased, especially in today's world where favoritism is commonplace. I mean, I don't know about you but I don't want to see people like Ian Watson as a storyteller even though I'm sure there are ones who would swear he is competent or what not.

The good thing about using a computer to enforce the rules is that then the rule system is hardwired and cannot be bent or interpreted in circumstantial ways so everyone abide by default.
For Storytelling I see it more as sandbox driven, so the Story emerges from the initiatives of characters in the game that can only produce actions and events in accord with the conditions and rules rather than a plot decided by a storyteller, so having a more emergent plot.
Of course that can only work if the player-base is sufficiently unrestricted in their cause-effect influence on the game-world and social structure, which would require some very smart design strategies to execute.
Would also some bravery and honor on part of the player-base, we know that a City would have a Prince that can weed out trouble makers if need be, but what happens if the prince himself is a trouble player, are we allowed to perma-kill his character?
(wouldn't it be balanced if by taking the role of prince the perma-death flag goes up and the prince need to employ other characters to ensure his safety in public?)


I have a problem with people portraying characters that have caracteristics they can't portray. Sure, physical traits are fine, I mean, I can say my STR 4 character lifts something super heavy that I can't lift.. but what about Intelligence, Wits, or even Charisma ? If the player doesn't have the charisma to talk in public, the character that has it is hindered by his player's skills. And rolling all the time and saying "there, my meeting with the prince should go well"... isn't really doing it :(


Yeah that is one of my problems with stats, rolling and xp.
In a system I designed I use variance in Ability/Strategy(each Ability can only be used a set number of times so in any conflict its more about being resourceful or clever than randomness), I only use Stats and rolling as a last resort in case there is a draw and nothing else can bring resolve.
Mental and Social traits are to be used mostly as pre-requisite for abilities in such a system because like you say, most of the time these things are constrained by actual role-playing.

All of that is because I enjoy roleplaying for its own sake but kind of lost faith in overly complex dice-based systems where they end up becoming so convoluted the designers stop paying attention to balance and storytellers only pretend to follow the rules as a polite gesture.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 07:47:48 pm by Radical21 »

Offline Valamyr

  • Kindred
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1326
  • Reputation: +395/-17
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2013, 07:54:09 pm »
Thanks a lot for the agreeing :D It really warms my heart ^^

To answer simply your question : It's a recruitor's job :)
They'd need to hire a few people just for that purpose of basically "monitoring" the game and somehow, STing it a little (even if it's just to keep the community happy, and that means just about everyone, offering possibilities...). Of course the WoD being what it is, everyone has their own vision for it, and since the oWoD is so shaggy, everyone interpretates randomly (which is why I much prefer the nWoD system !). But consensus must be made, and clear rules (a scenarii bible as scripters call them) should be written so everyone actually plays the same game.

I have a problem with people portraying characters that have caracteristics they can't portray. Sure, physical traits are fine, I mean, I can say my STR 4 character lifts something super heavy that I can't lift.. but what about Intelligence, Wits, or even Charisma ? If the player doesn't have the charisma to talk in public, the character that has it is hindered by his player's skills. And rolling all the time and saying "there, my meeting with the prince should go well"... isn't really doing it :(

What you're describing is certainly all true in P&P. Ive seen all these issues in games, and yeah, to some extent we have to rely on stats to tell us what characters can do, in pretty much any P&P game. Its more fun when you're with great roleplayers who can actually portray their stats well no matter what, but its a minority.

For the MMORPG though, I have good news and bad news. The good news is that you won't really have people whose problems are that they have a hard time roleplaying. The bad news is that it'll be because they aren't going to be trying at all 99% of the time :p We can't expect that environment to resemble LARPs or tabletop. Most people don't play to RP, and when there's no critical mass of RPers, very few try.

However thats where immergent roleplaying comes in. If you accept that the players will be powergamers trying their hardest to maximize their power no matter what, and then design the game accordingly, you can create a certain illusion where even the powergamers are acting in a way that's vaguely plausible. For instance, if the most rewarding thing you can achieve in game isn't TOP DPS but high political office, and that the only way to get there is by playing dirty and trying to climb the ladder aggressively by any means necessary, well, suddenly you have alot of people doing what's expect of Kindred. Thats the kind of thing they're aiming for; it generally works well enough in EVE for instance. Nobody can say that the EVE pilots are actively RPing, but nobody can say their behavior doesnt make sense from the POV of pioneers of a small civilization lost in space, either. This is as good as it gets, I'm not expecting more.

Which isn't to say I wouldn't be happy to play often with more RP-minded people. I'll certainly collect that kind of player in my circles, but the game will be designed to minimize the disturbance caused by the others. Theyre not going to have handpicked STs going around cathering to us. The point of this kind of design is to make the best of an imperfect medium, but it'll never be as deep as good tabletop session.

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Reputation: +-1344/-52
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2013, 02:14:17 pm »
The point of this kind of design is to make the best of an imperfect medium, but it'll never be as deep as good tabletop session.

This last bit really bothered me somewhat since mainstream table-top doesn't seem to have more depth than what can be accomplished (theoretically).

For instance when I take this as a model mainstream table-top session:
Spoiler for Hiden:
If you break it down, I do not see that much depth in there: the players go where the storyteller guides them to with no question, they either kill or negotiate through a series of encounter conflicts where the storyteller pretty much lets them know if they succeed or fail(based on hidden die rolls non of us can know if are valid or not) and the structure of plot is maintained without any significant deviations.

On the other hand true Sandbox roleplaying whether it is table-top or computerized can throw the players into a universe where they can really do anything within the constraints of the rules like a simulator and assuming the rules are applied to create an interesting and believable universe(I.e NOT the overly monetized treadmills most MMORPGs turn into) it can really lead players into unexpected, immersible and thought provoking scenarios.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 02:21:13 pm by Radical21 »

Offline Rick Gentle

  • Gangrel Playboy
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3057
  • Reputation: +595/-19
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2013, 07:16:31 pm »
"Anyone caught filming was threatened with Final Death, so we’re stuck with these." - from http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/04/27/eve-fanfest-world-of-darkness-target-footage-shows-hunting-parties-and-parkour/
As always, the operative word in this sentence in the World of Darkness is "caught". Film and break the rules all you want - just don't get caught!

"We’ve banned the names Edward and Bella and you can’t make your vampire sparkle,” McDonough joked, crushing the dreams of a million Twilight fans."
God/Caine/deific-entity-of-your-choice bless the man.

I'm perfectly fine with minions doing our crafting-analogue stuff for us. That was one of the things I really liked about The Old Republic - you could send out your minions to do all the stuff that other games want you to spend even more hours grinding for.

@ Valamyr
"I'm 30 years old too, but I, for one, have no plans on ever letting life get in the way of my gaming hobby. Between no kids and teleworking I have plenty of free time and I like it that way. :)"
Got any job openings? I like having free time, too!

"I want to play without it feeling like a job (unless I'm paid for it, which I already was once), and without it ending up like most VTM Larps : people being backrubbing on each other with RP in and out to oput together great NPC dialogues while most PC do nothing and simply don't have fun. That and the regular power playing between players (were it between characters I wouldn't mind, but I've seen sex in exchange for moar for one's character. seriously. proto goth assholes.)" - Claudia
That's how I felt when I was running around in EVE Online, trying not to get in my corporation's way. I'd like a game that's a little bit LESS like the real world - no job, no taxes, no worrying about the state of the economy. Unless I get paid for it.
I think it would be very fair and very realistic to have players and employees of White Wolf/CCP take on the roles of Storyteller-like figures, who have certain powers others don't have. The Storyteller is as much of a moderator as they are a game master and, er, storyteller, but they also have to moderate themselves, and not everybody is good at that. Taking sex in exchange for more dots is a horrible abuse (even if all the players can/want to have sex with the Storyteller), but with official positions and oversight from the people who designed the actual game, it COULD be doable. We should at least see in-game moderators and guides who help introduce players to the game and keep newbs informed. That was one of my favorite parts in any MMO I played - taking a newb under my wing and preventing them from becoming a noob.
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Reputation: +-1344/-52
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2013, 07:38:14 pm »
I'm perfectly fine with minions doing our crafting-analogue stuff for us. That was one of the things I really liked about The Old Republic - you could send out your minions to do all the stuff that other games want you to spend even more hours grinding for.


That is one of the things I never really got about modern MMORPG players, they always want better weapons, more xp or minions to do tasks they don't want to do but refuse to see the underlying issues that lead to these fixes being relevant or desired to begin with..

Offline Claudia Vonigner

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Reputation: +22/-11
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2013, 08:46:03 pm »
Parkour ? You mean, like in Mirror's Edge (and later in all ACs) ? Have they been living under a rock or something ?

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Reputation: +-1344/-52
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2013, 09:11:51 pm »

Offline Rick Gentle

  • Gangrel Playboy
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3057
  • Reputation: +595/-19
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2013, 01:14:47 am »
I'm okay with toned-down, more realistic weapons. Not everybody goes around swinging a +5 Epic Sword of Fiery Doom or it's equivalent. In most cases, it's your basic iron or steel sword, no tricks, no magical powers. That's one of the things I like about the World of Darkness and a few other games: a double-barreled shotgun is simply a double-barreled shotgun, and it's not going to be anything more. And yet, it can still kick total ass.

I'm also okay with slow, reasonable progression, provided that it doesn't mean my character is under-powered compared to the creatures they're fighting or the quests they're undertaking. This is usually only really possible in a single-player game or tabletop, however, as in MMOs either the other players or the NPCs totally outclass you sooner or later. (Especially if you're late joining the game or have to start a new character for some reason. This is one thing I'm worried about with perma-death in the WODMMO.)

But what I loved most about having minions to do some of my dirty work is that I could get on with playing the fun(ner) parts of the game, instead of grinding for materials, paying out the wazoo for them on the auction house, and having to just sit there clicking the "Craft" button over and over again. There's still a lot of grinding in The Old Republic, but I can at least do other kinds of grinding while my minions craft. As C. McD. says, you're a lord of the night, and presumably we'll have better things to do than stitch shirts. Hopefully ghouls/minions will have MORE functionality than this, but to me that's a big improvement right there.
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Claudia Vonigner

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Reputation: +22/-11
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2013, 01:04:45 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour

It's french, I know what it is, but I wanted to say they're at least 4 years behind (mirror's edge, ios games, ACs...)

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Reputation: +-1344/-52
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2013, 01:20:20 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour

It's french, I know what it is, but I wanted to say they're at least 4 years behind (mirror's edge, ios games, ACs...)

As opposed to?
Parkour doesn't really have an advanced form. it is a skill that has become featured in many games because it is cool and useful, removing it or not doing it just because it is in Assassin's creed doesn't make much sense.

Though WoD Online might as well integrate Martial Arts, Superman jumps and Shapeshifter's Flight if they do that, all of which is tons of work and requires alot of animation data.

Though Nowadays Parkour animation data and movement systems are already provided as middle-ware for some engines so maybe there are some shortcuts there since its so popular.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 01:24:18 pm by Radical21 »

Offline Claudia Vonigner

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Reputation: +22/-11
Re: Eve FanFest - WoD
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2013, 01:45:25 pm »
Of course putting it in is a good idea.. for physical characters ;) I mean you really see your regular Ventrue politician doing that shit ? (okay I'm being a troll here, but if I wanna play physical prouesse, I don't play WoD, I play fucking Just Cause)


What I criticize is announcing it as if it were some big awesome news of awesome novelty (okay it is for MMOs, except for AC multiplayer), while it's been around for years. I felt it was like saying "omg your character can jump !"... you don't need high class awesome event to announce that ffs.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal