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Offline Valamyr

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2013, 04:53:23 PM »
Quote
TVD?

Why are you talking about TVD now?

Yeah, I'm not sure why I chose to focus on that out of all things in the thread. Probably because I just catched up on the last episodes just before seeing Bill's post.

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2013, 01:52:42 AM »
I'd like to see Golconda be attainable, too, even if it's insanely hard.
I could see Golconda as one of two things: 1) Achieving Golconda allows you to reset your character to be mortal again, BUT perhaps they gain skills quicker or start off with larger bonuses like you see in some other MMOs (such as Dungeon and Dragons Online's resurrection scheme - except without the Specialty Classes).
2) Dependent on a character's Path of Enlightenment (meaning that they'd have to put in mechanics for other Paths of Enlightenment aside from Humanity), they get HUGE bonuses as long as they keep along an extremely straight and narrow path; if they fall off, they lose all the bonuses and have to start the Golconda quest again. Ex: A player on the Path of Metamorphosis would be able to re-arrange their Physical Attributes at-will as long as they kept a Path of Metamorphosis rating of 10 and had to maintain some other Attributes and Skills at 5+.

And, yes, vampire gimmicks suck. But so do vampire puns, so...
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Radical21

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2013, 03:12:01 AM »
I'd like to see Golconda be attainable, too, even if it's insanely hard.
I could see Golconda as one of two things: 1) Achieving Golconda allows you to reset your character to be mortal again, BUT perhaps they gain skills quicker or start off with larger bonuses like you see in some other MMOs (such as Dungeon and Dragons Online's resurrection scheme - except without the Specialty Classes).
2) Dependent on a character's Path of Enlightenment (meaning that they'd have to put in mechanics for other Paths of Enlightenment aside from Humanity), they get HUGE bonuses as long as they keep along an extremely straight and narrow path; if they fall off, they lose all the bonuses and have to start the Golconda quest again. Ex: A player on the Path of Metamorphosis would be able to re-arrange their Physical Attributes at-will as long as they kept a Path of Metamorphosis rating of 10 and had to maintain some other Attributes and Skills at 5+.

And, yes, vampire gimmicks suck. But so do vampire puns, so...

Id like to clarify that Golconda is not really becoming human again, it is more like having total control over blood consumption and beast.

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2013, 04:02:35 AM »
That's how I usually interpret it; that's why I like the idea of the Golconda state being dependent on the Path of Enlightenment the vampire practices (i.e., Golconda for the Metamorphosists is the Ultimate Metamorphosis (!!)... whatever the heck that IS). But there are rumors in both franchises that hint that one of the end results of Golconda is becoming human again. I guess if you were on the Path of Humanity or Heaven, that would be the goal.
Remember: It's not the size of your fangs that matters; it's what you stick them in.

Offline Nigama

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2013, 05:00:57 AM »
I think, just as with the PnP game, if you reach Golconda, play is over.  You can put off Golconda and become an Inconnu, to help others or because you fear the ULTIMATE STEP (TM).  But if you reach Golconda it should be a HUGE accomplishment and you should have to start a new character.  I agree, a bonus is in order.. maybe a mortal with Truth Faith?  Or faster XP gain?  or keeps all the old stats.. something interesting and helpful but not too overpowered, since you are, after all, starting a new character.  Still.. could unlock an achievement, bragging rights, plus the advantages we both already mentioned.  I would just like to see it be ridiculously hard... in WoW, I got the Insane in the Membrane achieve before Cata, so I had to do the Dire Maul runs.  I think Golconda should be about 5-10x harder than that, which is to say nearly impossible.

Nigama
After I completed that achieve, there was an empty part of my soul.  Before I quit WoW, I started the achieve on another character.  Perhaps I'm a masochist.
"You may not remember us, but we may be responsible for your lack of memory."

Offline Radical21

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2013, 08:14:41 AM »
After I completed that achieve, there was an empty part of my soul.  Before I quit WoW, I started the achieve on another character.  Perhaps I'm a masochist.

There is no true achievement in Games, I wish designers and players alike would internalize that. What is gained from gaming is perspective and inspiration to create stories.

Offline Nigama

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2013, 02:49:53 PM »
After I completed that achieve, there was an empty part of my soul.  Before I quit WoW, I started the achieve on another character.  Perhaps I'm a masochist.

There is no true achievement in Games, I wish designers and players alike would internalize that. What is gained from gaming is perspective and inspiration to create stories.

"There is no spoon.  You'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself."


Nigama
thanks for the wisdom O jedi master
"You may not remember us, but we may be responsible for your lack of memory."

Offline Radical21

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2013, 10:21:11 PM »
thanks for the wisdom O jedi master

There is no achievement, There is inspiration
There is no metagame, There is roleplay
There is no xp , There is enlightenment
There is no grind , there is exploration
There is no pointless gameplay, There is only the Force.

Nigama you have alot of Mitochondria so you might be the chosen one destined to bring balance to the Gamedesign
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 10:46:22 PM by Radical21 »

Offline Nigama

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2013, 01:28:22 AM »
thanks for the wisdom O jedi master

There is no achievement, There is inspiration
There is no metagame, There is roleplay
There is no xp , There is enlightenment
There is no grind , there is exploration
There is no pointless gameplay, There is only the Force.

Nigama you have alot of Mitochondria so you might be the chosen one destined to bring balance to the Gamedesign

I think we need to send that to CCP and Chris' twitter feed, it can be their mantra for creating the game.  Cept change Force to Blood.

 :vampwink:

Nigama
"You may not remember us, but we may be responsible for your lack of memory."

Offline Radical21

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2013, 04:31:41 AM »
thanks for the wisdom O jedi master

There is no achievement, There is inspiration
There is no metagame, There is roleplay
There is no xp , There is enlightenment
There is no grind , there is exploration
There is no pointless gameplay, There is only the Force.

Nigama you have alot of Mitochondria so you might be the chosen one destined to bring balance to the Gamedesign

I think we need to send that to CCP and Chris' twitter feed, it can be their mantra for creating the game.  Cept change Force to Blood.

 :vampwink:

Nigama


There is no achievement, There is inspiration
There is no metagame, There is roleplay
There is no xp , There is enlightenment
There is no grind , there is exploration
There is no pointless gameplay, There is cause and effect.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 04:33:26 AM by Radical21 »

Offline Valamyr

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2013, 07:06:57 PM »
I wanted to make a post to address the original post per se;

Daylight; won't be an issue in a permanight setting, but obviously the upside of it not being an issue is that they wont have to introduce elements that would water down the lore for playability. That one is well handled.

Cure; I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen too, since mortals are essentially tutorial-like characters which can be permakilled to boot. Emergent roleplay dictates that the player's and his character's interests will be aligned here, neither would want to be cured of what makes him powerful. As for lore, its pretty consistent on the idea that a real cure doesn't exist; making peace with, and mastering what you are is as good as it gets.

Originals death killing bloodlines: again not a WOD concept, no chance we'd have to deal with that. Plenty of OWoD canon deaths as evidence. OTOH, as long as they live, the oldest elders can certainly have alot of influence over their bloodlines. Probably not something that will get translated mechanically.

Being able to contend with the beast; sure. Frenzies can be cool, but nobody likes loosing control of their characters too often. Thats why the mechanic is avoidable through humanity. Surely they'll make it so you only have real beast issues if you played dumb or wasted your humanity/played low-on-blood; then it's a consequence for your actions, which is OK.

The MMO's endgame. Now we're getting to the part where I'm less confident. Everything suggests that after Black October, they pulled away from the original plan to have three distinct spheres of gameplay (sandbox, themepark, coffee shop) to focus heavily on the (easier to design, closer to EVE) concept of a quasi-pure sandbox, with sandbox at the very least being where the entire end game's at. This is going to be the WOD's endgame, there's no doubt about it: you'll form alliances of players and fight other players over resources, recognition, titles, assets, blood and wealth. This is a very PvP centric endgame, like EVE's is. You won't be 'forced' into it in the sense you can also condemn yourself to obscurity by sticking to safer areas (Like people who are afraid of 0.0 in EVE can still play, but they'll never amount to anything in the eyes of real movers and shakers).

So in short, the endgame here is mostly PvP, which they'll hopefully manage to spice up enough to make it thematically-fulfilling and fun. No real way around this at this point. This is going to be good news for some, bad news for others. Certainly a more 'hardcore' and way less 'casual' an experience than most of titles on the market. Personally, I think it also restricts heavily the reach the game can have; it's going to be a niche title for sure. But if its well executed, I might like it very much. I'm waiting to find out, like all of us, HOW WELL they do it. But there are no question marks left about the general direction it's going in. They chose to significantly cut back on the (costly to develop) non-sanbox elements, so there's only one possible end game.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 07:09:44 PM by Valamyr »

Offline Radical21

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2013, 12:25:37 AM »
The Problem is that you still think about creating a game that centers only around materialistic aspects and wealth accumulation (AKA capital) rather than actual gameplay or roleplay.

I can understand where you are coming from , since accumulation of wealth and xp(progression) play on the hunter-gatherer instinct of humans they are considered addictive and many game designers want to incorporate these.
However When it comes to Wealth accumulation,  Criminals and Currupt people never play fair and rarely stick to the rules, so they override the capital system to obtain wealth in an illegal manner which is something that becomes more pronounced the higher you go

http://www.ted.com/talks/afra_raymond_three_myths_about_corruption.html

However unlike other games, you can't mess with the legitimization of Criminals and Currupt Officials as playable characters and yet they pretty much pull what could be considered hacks and shortcuts over the monetary system.

Also about movers and shakers , who would you consider more capable? Bill Gates or Bear Grylls? (I pulled these rather randomly :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Grylls
But since they are actual well-known people ill use assumptions about them as examples)
Technically Billy(Billionaire Ventrue) has more money than Bear (Wealthy Gangrel) , by wild exaggeration he could buy a small private army and an island to train them on, but his computer hacking skills and whatever exotic weaponry he can afford with that money probably won't save him against Bear in a 1 vs 1 and won't help him when he is out of his comfortable chair.

With enough ambition they could probably destroy eachother's lives by various means all the same but the point is that money cannot buy raw personal power like in gear-based MMORPGs.

Next is Blood economy, which as a concept sounds extremely retarded because Blood is produced spontaneously in the human body over time and it would be like saying there is a piss and shit economy.
So you can store blood in a Blood bank,  Have slaves to feed from and these may make things more comfortable and easy but blood-pool size depends on generation which is intentionally independent of any XP mechanics and overall if you have Bloodpool 10 or Bloodpool 15 it really doesn't give you an I-Win card over anyone.

The Beauty of WoD is that because it plays on multiple arenas all at once, in a game that actually strive for accurate settings (you know, one where the Storyteller only upholds the rules and doesn't interfere with PC scheming and plots) even a despised Neonate-thin-blood can influence the end-game.



« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 12:29:59 AM by Radical21 »

Offline Valamyr

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2013, 01:08:32 AM »
The Problem is that you still think about creating a game that centers only around materialistic aspects and wealth accumulation (AKA capital) rather than actual gameplay or roleplay.

Yes, I'm well aware that in your mind that is a problem, but I'm indeed working from the certainty that the game will not be a magical utopian revolution. It will be a MMORPG with a few innovative elements but it'll be first and foremost, "EVE with Vampires"; the signs are too obvious to be missed by any means aside from willful disbelief.

The reason why businesses make MMORPGs is because there's a proven template, with several acceptable variations, that is proven to bring alot of revenue for a reasonable investment. The consistent theme with your proposals is to break with all these acceptable variations and try something so 'outside the box' that everyone in the devroom would be screaming 'Not that outside! More box!'. But CCP acquired this IP first and foremost because it was an incredibly good fit for porting their EVE sandbox PVP one-hit-wonder to 1st/3rd person gameplay. They're not going to throw out the baby. I always expected that this game would be primarily a sandbox; I was hoping they'd temper it with a serious effort at themepark content, however, and that's not happening. So, clearly our visions diverge radically, because I still enjoy MMORPGs and you never have. But aiming at MMORPGs that aren't about power and wealth accumulation is wishful thinking. You'll never quite have the game you want if you're not willing to embrace at least some portions of what has made this industry so successful. Roleplaying is fun and I will definitely partake, but the only way to have it on a large scale is to ensure that players are motivated to act in a manner that fits their character, ie, emergent roleplay. That will happen, but only because both the players and the characters will be wanting the resources they are fighting for, and yes, that most definitely includes access to a large steady supply of blood. There are economies built around many other things reliably produced by nature, even though no crimes have to be comitted to harvest them.

In short, I believe neonates will meaningfully impact nothing at all. You'll have to earn your place at the Elders table (progression) before you can play the grownup game (Those EVE pilots who pulled super-scams that required no in-game stats put in even more time to gain the strategic trust required). Realistic questions are whether or not they'll try to sell us shortcuts for Uncle Sam-sized bucks so that people can get there without paying their dues. But suggesting they're making an MMORPG where progression isn't a factor always was, and will remain, Malkavian talk. If anything, CCP's record shows that they believe in a power gap that takes a substantially greater effort to fill than other MMORPGs. If I give you a newbie pilot in EVE and a level 1 Orc Warrior in WOW today, guess which of the two will take an extra magnitude worth of effort to turn into a finely tuned high-end war machine?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 01:28:36 AM by Valamyr »

Offline Radical21

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2013, 06:07:34 AM »
If I give you a newbie pilot in EVE and a level 1 Orc Warrior in WOW today, guess which of the two will take an extra magnitude worth of effort to turn into a finely tuned high-end war machine?

Both games have a very different progression system with EVE's being a slightly more elaborate progression because it breaks into Skill Progression(skillbooks) and Wealth progression(SEK) Skill progression is prefixed since its time dependent so the only progression the EVE character can strive to accelerate is the Wealth which is still vastly dependent on skill progression.
A player can hardly play at all and his character still progress in the same rate and he can access the game via mobile to play stock exchange to gain worth.

WoW on the other hand, can grind for hours on end and his character will progress at an accelerated rate until it hit the level cap and he has to grind even more to get all the rare items etc. So the WoW player spends more active effort.

Despite EvE being mostly an organized world that is fairly care-free there are always gamers in EVE or outside of it who become outraged at the fact that PvP can have an effect on EvE's power-structure and could potentially result in the lose of all their 'hard effort' and that is even without players having full interactivity on a personal level (there is no walking in stations yet).

So my initial point was that if you make WoD MMO true to its name you create a cutthroat world that is darker than EVE where players cannot simply hide behind 'grind-alot progression' to say their character earned a "seat at the eldertable"..
Is it a myth? probably, but for me that is what it takes to create a worthy World of Darkness.

And yes the MMORPG formula works for publishers and the industry as a whole but it can also rip the soul off a perfectly fine IP (for example Star Wars). so Wealth accumulation and Xp accumulation are nice but when a game becomes centered about them above all else, it sheds off many more layers of complexity that could have made it more interesting.
I mean if I gave you a character now that has all the XP and all the Wealth it could have, you would stand there and say 'ok whats next?' and you will find that there is no next because that became the sum of the average MMORPG game.
You cannot lose power and because you cannot lose it you also cannot use the power to have any lasting impact on the game world and it becomes this trophy you can hang on the wall and forget about
(so in essence you really have no power and at the end-game you find the joke was on you, sounds familiar?)

And P.S : I played MMORPGs before the WoW era , then I liked them because there was no clear cut formula to how they should be and so players actually enjoyed the game rather than treat it as a marathon to nowhere.

I don't think anyone really likes the box, the only reason developers stick with is that it is hard to escape from, I don't really expect CCP Developers to just go and revolutionize gamedesign , I just hope they read what I say, open their minds to it and consider moving things towards it where they can afford to instead of simply going with 'this is the way everything is made, this is the only way'.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:24:06 AM by Radical21 »

Offline Valamyr

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Re: End-game, or the lack thereof
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2013, 08:12:59 AM »
Yeah, that's a good post. I think alot of us are very focused on seeing WoD 'as true to spirit as possible', and that may not entirely happen. At the first sign of trouble, they got rid of all the ex-WW people who were in charge of the lore, and in charge of keeping the setting true to itself. They'll be primarily looking to make a kickass sandbox MMO, but they're not literally porting P&P to the computer. But in many ways, even a simple but well-executed 'EVE port' to 1st/3rd person Vampires would already be pretty innovative compared to many titles out there, and able to convey some aspects of WOD well. And surely, they'll find ways to go further than that.

Specifically, you mention that one of the problems with progression is that you eventually reach a 'now what' phase. I think EVE addresses this pretty well by ensuring there things in the high-end that can only be obtained or even used effectively with the backing of a corp. I think this is a core concept that they will port to WOD. Also, while I favor absolute permadeath being easily avoidable unless you are very stupid, I'm not against setbacks and losses for defeats, especially when the loss goes into the pockets of the victor. That's what makes the conflicts meaningful.

Instead of trying to build superspaceships and battlestations in nullsec, players will likely be trying to get the lock on political power in WOD. The Prince wont be able to rule alone. They'll make it so that the titles that come with special powers are highly sought after, and that you really need to remain the 'top dog' to keep it at all, both in terms of personal ability and in keeping the backing of others. So suddenly you have groups forming to compete for these 'lowly heights', with the very real possibility to lose them. The various perks of being in power can include access to greater wealth or essentially more blood than what you can do with, and the mechanical ability to bestow the extras on the people propping you up. More personal conflicts could see players challenging each other for control over the equivalent of dots of status or herd and such. I absolutely wouldn't want to see P&P-like dots used literally, but they can translate to meaningful, and limited resources in-game, the scarcity creating the inherent conflict over them.

So, in essence, progression would be multi-tiered. Sure, there's your personal experience and generation and such, which is probably not going to be rolled back very often (I'm cool with torpor/regular death hurting a bit tho). Your personal possessions, first haven and ghoul are probably always going to be reasonably or absolutely secure assets, as well as your bank account. In short, in multiple facets of the character, you'll indeed get better with time and may someday hit a 'what now' point (altho correct me if Im wrong, EVE specifically has no reachable 'you're now maxed in every skill' point). But in many other facets of the character, namely control over finite assets, status, titles and such, your power would be in flux, raising and waning depending on your actions, activity levels and appetite for risk. I'm guessing they're shooting for something like that. Plenty to keep you busy potentially forever, plenty to foster good conflict and making players wary of each other. That's also exactly what you need to foster emergent roleplay. It seems clear that this is more or less the blueprint: but execution is everything. This is the kind of system that can be awesome if done right, but that rarely is. A single serious mistake in the design of a system like this is enough to make your MMO a virtual ghostown, in this case possibly literally.

 

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