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Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #165 on: August 20, 2012, 07:00:13 pm »
Very good questions, and it's entirely possible that he was purposefully left there as a sleeper agent for an unknown entity.  That fragile trust is why w-space corporations are generally small, and tend to be composed of rather old, patient and paranoid people.  It'll be awesome to have a group of similarly cagey, paranoid and dangerous Nosferatu player characters staking a claim in the forgotten, flooded subways deep beneath NYC.
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Offline Radical21

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #166 on: August 20, 2012, 07:27:30 pm »
Yeah having hideouts or being able to make them would be a really cool addition to WoDMMO.
In WoDMMO there is more potential because it also apply to conspiracies to claim the Air-conditioning company that installs these special industrial vents everywhere... Assuming that controlling institutions and assets would be feasible, because of the Masquerade this can also make the social aspect more useful than direct confrontation via combat.

If you want to have something W-space in the sense of uncharted 'Nowhere and Everywhere' gateway that's more of a Shadowlands realms thing IMO. This probably glides into expansion material because it seems like a whole lot of grounds to cover for an MMO that is not even out there


Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #167 on: August 20, 2012, 07:39:42 pm »
If you want to have something W-space in the sense of uncharted 'Nowhere and Everywhere' gateway that's more of a Shadowlands realms thing IMO.
That's a good comparison  A while back I think we briefly discussed the possibility of accessing the Astral Plane.  In Eve, anybody with the right skill and motivation can access w-space.  Similarly, anybody in VtM can get to the Astral Plane with a good bit of Auspex and the willpower to do it.  Of course, it's dangerous there, and staying there for long periods of time can lead to all kinds of problems (like getting stranded).  I like the idea of the devs dangling a tempting bit of exploration in front of us, knowing full well that they're giving a lot of people just enough rope to hang themselves.
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Offline Nigama

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #168 on: August 20, 2012, 08:26:29 pm »
I certainly can't wait to see how deep the rabbit hole will go in the WoD MMO!  :)

Nigama
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Offline Porphyria

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #169 on: August 20, 2012, 10:08:09 pm »
I certainly can't wait to see how deep the rabbit hole will go in the WoD MMO!  :)

Nigama

Remember that part in Alice in Wonderland where she gets stuck on a ledge with an upside down desk and sees the Cheshire cat? About that far...


Sorry I just had to. *mini-troll*  :taunt:

Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #170 on: June 10, 2013, 12:58:51 pm »
We nearly handed the keys to strangers today.  About 10 of us were lurking on the home side of our C5-C5 static, waiting for our scout to find where our target (a lone Dominix piloted by a faceless alt with no public records) kept warping off to.  One minute he was at his starbase, and the next he was briefly visiting some unknown spot in his system.

Finally acknowledging the fact that he would not put himself into a vulnerable position, we pounced on a secondary target: a scanner he had sent into our system to assess the threat we posed.  It was kind of funny, really: our heavy assault cruisers, battlecruisers, logistics and force recon ships barreled through the wormhole to lay waste to a very unthreatening (and very surprised) scanner frigate.

He got away, so we pulled back and returned to our starbase.  It just so happens that I piloted the last of our two ships on the scene, and I was struck by the appearance of an oddly out of place covert ops ship we hadn't seen before.  I squinted at him, and he proceeded to attack me.  Announcing this over comms, the rest of my fleet turned around to see what was up.  Just as they were heading back to me, a dozen bandits (read: unknown individuals who are to be treated as "kill or be killed") landed on me.

I was in no real position to fight: I had a Logistics (healer) on one side of the wormhole and a Heavy Interdictor (uh...stiff-arm, thing that pins other things down and keeps reinforcements from arriving) on the other.  So I mitigated damage as best I could before retreating through the wormhole and regrouping away from the fight.  Meanwhile, the rest of my fleet landed.  Similarly, they were beaten back and forced to retreat as I did.

Before we knew it, we had been physically pushed back from our own system into a neighboring system (whose residents we had been actively hunting for the better part of an hour).  About half of us broke off the engagement and returned to our various starbases in our home system.  The other half of us were stuck on the other side of the enemy's blockade.  Our forces split, we surveyed the enemy fleet from afar to determine any weaknesses we might exploit.  So far our losses had been light: a single battlecruiser.  Then one of our more inexperienced members asked if we had a Moros on the field.  Without even seeing it, most of us realized what this meant.  Unable to do anything but watch, we stood our ground in this foreign system as the massive bulk of the dreadnought tore through the H296 and collapsed our way back home.

Physically separated from the rest of the universe, we took inventory of our meager, tattered fleet.  Our CEO and I flew the two logistics cruisers, able to provide armor repairs to the others.  We also had a pair of covert ops frigates, a Curse and my heavy interdictor.  Our CEO did not hesitate to take drastic steps.  Realizing that the enemy fleet in our home system could wreak untold havoc unopposed, he valiantly initiated a self-destruct on his own ship and his capsule.  Since time was of the essence, he sought to kill himself and reawaken (a billion ISK less wealthy) in low-security space.  This would allow him to make a run for a back door to our system that (hopefully) our enemy had not yet discovered.  I stood by him in those final minutes...no matter how many times I've seen  or done it, it never gets less eerie.  After the second explosion faded away, I checked d-scan and collected his frozen corpse and what was left of his faction-fitted Guardian.  Then I assumed command of the fleet.

He tasked the rest of us with finding a more traditional way out, and quickly.  Even now, I don't know how our scanner did it.  Bob, the God of Wormholes surely smiled upon us this day.  Our scanner sent out his probes, and with impressive speed managed to blaze a trail through three relatively unguarded C5 systems.  We tip-toed past massive, slumbering capital fleets before emerging just before dawn in a high security system near Dodixie.  Still, we were only halfway home.  Our Curse pilot hissed and darted for the shadows as the Federation Fleet converged on his position...a stark reminder that we all are the architects of our own reputation.  We agreed to split up and set our own courses for now.  We would reconvene shortly.

We flew to the closest market hub and refitted our rag-tag fleet with warp core stabilizers, nano-fiber internal structures and anything else that would help us survive the next leg.  In order to get to our home system's back door, we had to slough through 8 systems of heavily-camped low-security space.  It was here that we reconvened with our Curse pilot, safe from the vengeful patrols of the empire that he had so thoroughly pissed off in years past.  As it was, we were racing the clock on multiple fronts.  If the hostile fleet found our last connection and collapsed it, we could be exiled forever.  If any one of us fell behind, there was no saving them.  So the 5 of us trudged onward, through 37 jumps of alternating high and low, before finally making it home.

It took 2 hours, during which time we were fortunate that our attackers did not have the foresight or commitment to lock down our remaining connections.  We reemerged into our home system to see our attackers link back through the wormhole from which they had entered.  The last ship out was their Moros, collapsing the connection behind them.  I deposited my CEO's remains and the wreckage of his ship into a restricted-access hangar, to be sorted through at a later date.

Mechanically, we know exactly how they did it.  Strategically, we know exactly what we did wrong to allow such an organization to exploit such a situation.  Still, it shook us pretty badly.  If we had been slightly slower with reorganizing, or if the enemy had been slightly more aware of the system's geography, we could very easily have found ourselves at half our normal manning, with a skilled, determined foe firmly entrenched in our home system.

Afterwards, we discussed the ordeal at length.  Sure, we have almost a dozen capital ships of our own, and if this or that, and if that and the other, we could easily blah blah smash them to dust.  But that's not what happened.  On paper the skirmish was hardly a footnote: a single measly Hurricane was the only official casualty.  We've had worse.  Far worse.  But after all these years, it's still scary: despite our experience, our caution, our paranoia and our aggression, there is always a bigger fish, and he is always hungry.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 01:24:11 pm by _username »
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Offline Nigama

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #171 on: June 10, 2013, 01:22:30 pm »
What did they do during the two hours you guys were gone?  Nothing?

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Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #172 on: June 10, 2013, 09:00:16 pm »
Steal this situation and turn it into two rival Cainite factions, and it fits extremely well as an exciting night in the World of Darkness.

Except for the part about valiant self-sacrifice and waiting for the slow and weak to catch up. Your Curse pilot was very vampire-like. I dub him "Nossie".

Armor tanking, eh? You guys have a lot of Amarr? I remember armor-tanking as an Amarr...
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Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #173 on: June 10, 2013, 09:43:12 pm »
I wasn't there during the 2 hours, but over comms I could hear some of our guys on the inside.  It sounded like some light harassment with bombers and sniping Tier 3s...frequently shifting tactics and hardware to keep them off balance.  Basically just making sure they didn't get too comfortable, or think that they could try to establish a foothold.

And yes, medium armor is one of our primary fleet doctrines: Zealots, Canes, Legions, Proteus and Guardians see daily use in our system.  We also maintain Bhaalgorn, Moros and Archon capabilities in case things escalate.  Of course, sometimes that isn't the best approach.  We also maintain a stable of bombers and Nagas as a way to use a small number of people to keep a larger force at bay.
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Offline Radical21

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #174 on: June 20, 2013, 03:39:41 am »
Skyra are you part of the R&K corp?

Also since it seems combat tactics usually involves playing a combo of two or more ships to gain advantage I wonder how hard is it to dual box?

given that tactic is :
Quote
“A tactic is a calculated action determined by the absence of a proper locus. … The space of a tactic is the space of the other” (ibid., 36-37). A tactic is deployed “on and with a terrain imposed on it and organized by the law of a foreign power.” One who deploys a tactic “must vigilantly make use of the cracks that particular conjunctions open in the surveillance of the proprietary powers. It poaches in them. It creates surprises in them” (ibid. 37).

I wonder if WoD would employ something like that to create a combat or social interaction system ...

The move they did, baiting you with a scanner seemed to have worked beyond their expectations if it was not a wild concidence.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 04:01:16 am by Radical21 »

Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #175 on: June 21, 2013, 10:18:23 pm »
I'm not part of Rooks and Kings, but I've run into them once or twice.  My organization was part of Talocan United until that alliance disbanded.  We frequently run into Aperture Harmonics, Volta, Sleeper Social Club, No Holes Barred and (annoyingly often) Verge of Collapse.

As for tactics, we go so far as to maintain our own confidential library of Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (closely modeled after TTP libraries of real-world military forces).  It might seem like overkill, but in my relatively small corporation that level of organization just kind of comes with the territory.  Our average age seems to be around 30, and average character age seems to be around 3 or 4 years.  We have an army CBRN (chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear) response expert, a retired Marine Corps civil engineer, and an air force pilot, so fleets compositions tend to be analyzed to death for effectiveness.

Our TTPs exist to help standardize our methods and hardware, so that everybody can quickly get on the same page (no "kitchen sink fleet" bullshit).  This drastically decreases our reaction times (fielding a fleet in time to accomplish anything) and increases our effectiveness/survivability.

Dual-boxing is something that about 2/3 of my corporation does.  Most of us run 2 accounts simultaneously, and a couple of our members run as many as 4 at once on a regular basis.  We used to have this one hardcore industrial guy who ran 11 at once.  For combat, 2 at once is usually the most that can be managed safely.  Of course, this is entirely dependent on the situation.  Some ships (dreadnoughts, fleet boosters, heavy interdictors) are fairly forgiving, and don't require a whole lot of attention at any given moment.  Others (interceptors, force recon and especially logistics/carriers) require a high level of focus, and splitting your attention is often a bad idea.  Still, it's up to the environment, the individual and his level of experience.

In that fight I described above, I was dual-boxing a logistics ship (requires a lot of attention) and a heavy interdictor (requires much less).  A couple days ago we had a smaller engagement, and I used a similar approach: dual-boxing a different heavy interdictor and a force recon ship (requires focused attention).  Contingency planning is a big part of this...knowing what you'll do if things get a lot more busy than you were expecting.  Knowing which assets will be a priority for extraction, if you get overrun.

For WoD, I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the same approach.  I plan to have all kinds of custom tactics for specific situations, both social and combat.  And not all of it will be button-clicking.  Misdirection, surveillance and other deviousness will benefit significantly from effective dual-boxing.  I just hope that we get to control a host of different ghouls/animals/whatever so that we can all enjoy a variety of capabilities and approaches.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 10:21:56 pm by _username »
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Offline Radical21

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #176 on: June 22, 2013, 01:01:14 am »
For WoD, I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the same approach.  I plan to have all kinds of custom tactics for specific situations, both social and combat.  And not all of it will be button-clicking.  Misdirection, surveillance and other deviousness will benefit significantly from effective dual-boxing.  I just hope that we get to control a host of different ghouls/animals/whatever so that we can all enjoy a variety of capabilities and approaches.

I would definitly favor that over the mainstream approach that is based mostly on luck and debased by cash shop benefits.
However after thinking about it and looking at EVE some more, where in EVE ships are being customized deployed towards a tactic,  In WoD I hope its slightly different:
Disciplines and abilities as the thing to be customized and deployed towards tactics, with each discipline/ability being 'primed' towards a customized purpose(or used in devotions?)  Augment disciplines such as Fortitude and Potence etc would probably be the exception because they only augment other abilities and their disadvantages are possibly eating up bloodpool and taking the slot of a "real" discipline. Celerity will have to undergo a serious modification and will probably become more like a normal discipline than a global effect.

Skill and Attributes are also something that should allow for customization but maybe it is better to turn these into a shorter list of usable character traits/feats/weak-spots to compensate for the increase in complexity.

That way "leveling up" unlocks more variance instead giving someone a flat I-win advantage that  in my eyes at least causes most RPGs to override any interesting tactical gameplay. As in it would give your character more tools to work with but wont making him a better craftsman.

Assuming they go for subscription model, I think they would still want to encourage dual-boxing if it makes people want to get more accounts so that approach supports that without necessarily being p2w.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:31:54 am by Radical21 »

Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #177 on: June 23, 2013, 01:44:33 am »
With an unpredictable number of characters in a scene, I think celerity will probably be presented as a kind of area effect time dilation (like Bloodlines) rather than just speeding up an individual character's movement (like Redemption).  Eve already uses this as a way to make those gigantic 500-man fleet fights more enjoyable for the players and more manageable for the servers.  I've only ever seen it twice (250 and 300 people on grid, respectively), so it's not like the servers rely on it all the time.

For those not aware, it basically just makes time slow down within a localized area.  In gigantic fleet fights, it's an unfortunate but unavoidable fact that somebody will die every single second.  And if you're that guy whose brand new battlecruiser goes *KER-BLAAM* 3 seconds after you come out of warp (think: Star Trek 2009 when the fleet gets ambushed), it's a lot less fun if you didn't even see what was hitting you.  At least when time dilation is in effect, you might get to see the hundreds of torpedoes and dazzling lazer light show pointed in your direction.  And then you go *KER-BLAAM*, slightly less ignorant than you would be otherwise.

Anyways, activating Celerity could initiate a localized time dilation, say...maybe within 100 feet.  Depending on the complexity of their combat codebase, it might even fade gradually along its event horizon, rather than go into full effect right at the combat area's edge.  Suppose Celerity increases your speed by 20% per level, and suppose they go with the Dark Ages: Vampire version of the mechanic when it comes to blood cost (that is, you can choose how much celerity to use, with increased blood cost and increased speed per turn, up to your known Celerity level).

So somebody pops Celerity 2 to ambush another guy in an alley, while a third guy is walking past the alley entrance 100 feet away.  All 3 of them experience a 40% time dilation.  The guy at the alley's entrance can choose to walk away, and he will gradually leave the time dilation area.  Or he can choose to pop Celerity 5 and take both of them out while they're committed to combat.  If he does, all 3 of them experience a 100% time dilation, where everything (from the player's perspective) happens at half speed.  There might be a little meta-gaming that arises from this, since it would allow a player to know that somebody is using Celerity near them.  But this could be rationalized as their Beast warning them that the Beast of another has reared its head in close proximity...something about sudden vitae expenditures trigger a hunger that Beasts around them also feel...or something.

Now that the 3 characters are engaged in some kind of time-dilation combat, it would be fair to say that the "grid" (to use Eve terms) expands to include all of them.  So a fourth person, across the street and down the block from the guy at the alley's entrance would feel the recently-expanded dilation from the escalating fight in the alley.  He would feel significant time dilation, and lacking a direct line of sight to the fight, would be more likely to look around himself, consider his options and simply proceed with caution.

This kind of combat movement could be enhanced in immersive ways by things like high heels. Sure, they look hella sexy at the red carpet premier, but they cut your run movement speed by like 70%, and they would have to be removed in order to fight/flee effectively.  However, if their owner is so confident in their celerity, melee, or whatever, they could choose to leave them on and still mop the floor with the assassin/burglar/whatever.  Like something right out of a movie: badass hot chick refuses to wreck her outfit, but her considerable skills/training allow her to win despite the self-imposed limiting factors.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 01:50:40 am by _username »
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Offline Radical21

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #178 on: June 23, 2013, 02:16:12 am »
Hmm , You could also make celerity slow the actions of everyone except the user's which means that he is faster on melee attacks for the while Celerity is active since his DPS won't be affected by the slowdown
This solves the problem of having to speed up someone, you just make him fast relative to the others(assuming they don't have celerity).

to do otherwise it means the punks or the character's allies also enjoy the celerity boost which doesn't seem right since they spend no bloodpool so you will end up with meta celerity generator characters which is just wrong..

However in that case that Celerity acts to create time difference , to make it a somewhat fair cheat, it should burn through bloodpool really really fast so constantly using it to be faster would be made more difficult.
 There can still be Tremere Refueler builds that support the Celerity user by remotely infusing blood using blood magic.

I think that Regardless of celerity in any combat a global slowdown effect might be handy to give the game more of a turn-based feel ,
ambush tactics can still exist by virtues of preparations(anticipating the enemie's setup while they can't anticipate yours) and having to ready/draw the weapon which could be made more difficult under fire to simulate surprise reaction even if the player is allowed to think due to the slowdown.


The Radius of the time dilation would have to be somewhat big otherwise like you say someone can skirt the edge of it and toss in a hand grenade.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 02:50:46 am by Radical21 »

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #179 on: June 23, 2013, 10:11:46 pm »
Frankly, I don't think that conception of Celerity captures either the mechanics or the feel of the power. It slows everybody else down, instead of (perceptually) speeding one person up. It affects an area instead of a person. It really sounds more like a Temporis power than it does actual tried-and-true Celerity. It also sounds like a lot more coding to do than simply making Celerity go zoom-zoom and increase attack speed. The way you would have it work, _username, it basically sounds like an AoE speed debuff. It also sounds like a batch to integrate with different levels of Celerity, whereas with the zoom-zoom idea, you can have five different levels of Celerity bouncing around on-screen with no problem.
So... yeah. I'd say save it for if they put in the esoteric bloodlines like the True Brujah.

It might be a good idea to have an increased blood cost for stronger levels of Celerity. Though that would mean having to toggle the level of Celerity you wanted to use every time you activated the power, which could get annoying. (Like scrolling through all the level-based powers in Bloodlines.)
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