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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)  (Read 25494 times)

Offline Radical21

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #255 on: July 06, 2013, 03:25:49 am »
See, having a combat-capable Elysium IS possible! ... as long as you have a badass Sheriff or Keeper to keep the peace. Which is how I wanted it to go anyway.

Im sure that wont happen, but I admittedly favor fully violence free Elysiums. Its great to have spots where there are no -physical- threats. I do want ways to meaningfully compete with other players for influence and assets while in Elysium, since that's largely the point. They should be true PVP safe zones, like Havens - these are the only cases where I want true safe zones - but there ought to be options to challenge other players' social and political standing in Elysium. Very much hope they do that anyway - it would be rather boring as a pure talking spot.

I'd love to see both kinds, as in 'Starter' cities that are NPC enforced and have a setup Elysium that are fully violence free and the more PvP Cities where Elysium is unofficial and must be maintained by the players if they want it.

To build 'social battle mechanic' in the Elysium as you call it, there first needs to be an analysis of all possible outcomes of interactions happening in the elysium.

Can the one engaging in that social mechanic become Worshiped? Humiliated? shunned? sympathized? But all of these states exist mainly in our minds , can winning in a social-battle like that really change the way we look at someone's character? (most players do not make separation between IC and OOC by default)

The only thing that really comes to mind is doing something like ECM/EW, ECM/EW messes with the Input/Output of systems aboard an aircraft to make these systems read and report things very differently from what is actually happening , leading the aircraft to become "confused" or making it feed the pilot false information.
So imagine messing with someone's chat client in this way where choice words in incoming or outgoing text messages could be made to sabotage someone's efforts in communicating.

Like cases where discreet switching a 'yes' with a 'no' in a sentence causes a flame war.
 
The problem with this is that it can be easily overridden using VoIP 3rd party chat.

Sure you can make reputation into a stat that goes up or down depending on the amount of 'likes' you get from people in Elysium but that is not too detailed in respect to what really happens and doesn't have any correlation to character's adaptability in social situations (Social stats and skills).

For a refresher on social stats(and the way I try to interpret their use):

Manipulation : Making others want something.
Charisma: The power of personality that makes others listen.
Appearance : Pretty face should make others more agreeable and trusting.
Etiquette : How well you carry yourself.
Leadership: Making others do stuff  for you.
Performance : making speeches and gimmicks to support what you say.

We cant use any of the above to manipulate real emotions as far as I could tell because OOC it isn't real for them in any capacity.

so how do you really use these? rob players of the choice in matters if they lose the social battle? but OOC they would still disagree and would do whatever they can to work around whatever agreement the social battle coerced.

You could try to simulate emotions using emotional stats of sorts that demand some goals to be met (for example if your character's loneliness meter spikes up you need to talk to another player and make them invest in you as a token of their approval , lol).
Still it sounds fairly convoluted at this point and needs more polishing to do anything of the sort.

Offline Valamyr

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #256 on: July 06, 2013, 04:48:18 am »
See, having a combat-capable Elysium IS possible! ... as long as you have a badass Sheriff or Keeper to keep the peace. Which is how I wanted it to go anyway.

Im sure that wont happen, but I admittedly favor fully violence free Elysiums. Its great to have spots where there are no -physical- threats. I do want ways to meaningfully compete with other players for influence and assets while in Elysium, since that's largely the point. They should be true PVP safe zones, like Havens - these are the only cases where I want true safe zones - but there ought to be options to challenge other players' social and political standing in Elysium. Very much hope they do that anyway - it would be rather boring as a pure talking spot.

I know novels and games are separate but I do recall a Tremere primogen being killed by an Assamite in an elevator in Elysium and the Sabatt certainly doesn't care.

Like you said, novels and games are separate. I dont expect the MMO to mirror every possibility a writer can come up with, and you shouldn't either ;) In gaming terms, some limited safe zones are a good thing. There's plenty of other places we'll be able to bash each other in the face to our hearts content ;)

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)
« Reply #257 on: July 08, 2013, 01:26:47 am »
The Clannovel series opens with an attack on a Camarilla Elysium by Sabbat forces (the assault on the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, Georgia, in Clannovel: Toreador).
VTM - Bloodlines opens with an attack on a Camarilla Elysium by Sabbat forces. The rest of the game had "safe" Elysium zones, but there was little threat of physical combat in them anyway. (Though who wouldn't want to pop LaCroix at least one?)
There's an assault on a High Clan court in VTM - Redemption by mortals (the assault and slaying of Prince Rudolf Brandl during the Night of Fire in Prague). If you want to count it, Christof and Wilhelm assaulted a Cappadocian monastery.
There might be fewer differences between how novels work and how games work than previously estimated.

Elysia are hardly safe zones - they're barely cease-fire zones. The only reason they exist is to provide a battleground for a different kind of fighting - the fighting of sidelong glances and whispering in corners - that cannot afford to be interrupted by actual physical combat.

As far as I'm concerned, mechanical enforcement of an Elysium zone is artificial and a cop-out that reduces risk in the game and does not make sense for the Cainite political setting. The only reason Elysium is respected and the Prince holds power is because he and his authority are feared - through the agents of Keeper of Elysium, the Sheriff, and whatever bullies he has to keep the peace.
However, I believe an acceptable compromise would be very much like EVE's CONCORD system and security space. You can technically attack in areas declared as Elysium, but it would be a very bad idea, because the Prince gets a cadre of great security that he can apply to an Elysium. If anybody initiates violence in that area, they are attacked by the strong NPC forces. They might be able to complete their objective beforehand - killing/knocking into torpor an elder or rival - but they're going to want to run immediately after. Only if they are a true badass will they be able to hold off the security, much less beat them. Getting away alive would probably give them lots of brownie points with forces antagonistic to the Prince and his authority. ("Ha-ha! You can't even protect yourself on your own sacred ground!")
Elysium would have the highest security (1.0 or .9 in EVE terms), and the 1.0-equivalent security force could only be applied to one spot at a time (as determined by the Prince or his designated Keeper of Elysium, or perhaps the Sheriff - picking who gets to wield this security force could be an important negotiation bit for the Prince). All other security forces would be used at the discretion of an individual player and their own efforts - ex. their number of Allies, Contacts, and Retainers, what Influence they have over the police forces of their city, etc, etc. In effect, they could use these Backgrounds to create a stronger or weaker security force in their own domains (being friendly to police occupation means higher security, less crime, but makes it harder to feed. Not cultivating security contacts leads to lower security, more crime, easier feeding, etc.). It should reduce the burden on players to be their own security forces (patrolling their domain, having multiple havens and weapons caches), like they have to be in low-sec EVE space.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 04:34:17 am by Rick Gentle »
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