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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Emergent Roleplay (aka TL;DR)  (Read 25456 times)

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2011, 07:00:17 am »
I think that if White Wolf/CCP put in even half the effect and visual impressiveness of EVE Online into the WODMMO, and if even the smallest handful of people buy into the setting enough to care about it as you obviously do, _username, then this will be the single greatest MMO I will ever see.

I also think the rest of you are missing the point of _username's exposition. Forget for a second how it's done, and appreciate it the way an average gamer will appreciate it: here's something that looks awesome, has mystery, and instills thought-provoking imagery and themes in its players. Thanks to these visual, mechanical, and player-generated effects, it's easier to flow with the game than it is to break out of it, for everything done in the game is if it were done in real life. Thanks to the situation, _username feels paranoia, intrigue, pride, and hope because there are "real" reasons to think so. This is not a shallow pride in number of levels attained, or the ephemeral pride of having beaten a raid boss; nor is this a vain hope of being invited to a raiding guild, or the anxious hope of scoring the right piece of gear. These are true investments that will have a lasting impact on the game, if in no other way than to make the next starry-eyed wanderer wonder what happened to _username's corportation.

If they do this for the World of Darkness, where perhaps a dank and echoing sewer tunnel ricochets with a sudden and lonesome scream, or the cold wind whistling at the top of a skyscraper cuts a Cainite off from the bustling noise of the teeming mortals below, then I think that roleplaying may just finally be the norm instead of the exception.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 07:07:13 am by Rick Gentle »
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Offline phonixor

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2011, 05:01:09 pm »
Must say i really thought that most of what _username was saying was made up...
But i find these kinda game mechanics very cool!

I really like this kinda roll playing... as it requires no effort... and it's what they talked about putting into the WODMMO aswell.. I find it really sucky having to pretend being a... without it having any ingame relevance/mechanics
but this is great!

what i don't understand is the starving part
- you can't build cloning facilities?
- you can't build food/resources generating stuff?
- what about shipyards?
- do you have to mine stuff yourself? or can you have bots doing the work for you?
(as mining the entire time seems like a horrible way to spend your time :P)

races and classes in WOW, did nothing to make you emerge in your character.
I loved playing a druid, cause of shapeshifting, and being a jack of all trades, but they are supposed to be nature's protecters
there is no interaction what so ever with the flora and fauna, other than killing and looting it.
so all that classes and races did, was give you certain combat abilities...
now that is also fine with me, as i don't roleplay on my own... but i do think that the kinda gameplay that forces/makes you roleplay just by playing a great game, can give you much more emergence!
of course wow was still great for other reasons!

a very important thing to enforce this kinda rollplaying in the WOD MMO could be a good implementation of the masquerade system, but i guess that is worth an other thread on its own :)

ps: great story btw _username, sorry for forgetting to comment on that earlier
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Offline Valamyr

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2011, 05:25:31 pm »
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Offline phonixor

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2011, 05:39:12 pm »
nm
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 06:05:27 pm by phonixor »
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Offline Radical21

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2011, 09:04:19 pm »


- do you have to mine stuff yourself? or can you have bots doing the work for you?
(as mining the entire time seems like a horrible way to spend your time :P)


I wish they would do that but from past experience many gamers seem to think it detracts from the game somehow  :facepalm:
(cause god forbid you will be able to play without having to grind!)

Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2011, 09:17:54 pm »
- you can't build cloning facilities?
- you can't build food/resources generating stuff?
- what about shipyards?
- do you have to mine stuff yourself? or can you have bots doing the work for you?
(as mining the entire time seems like a horrible way to spend your time :P)
Cloning vats can be installed in Titans and Motherships, but those vessels only exist in 0.0, not w-space.  So no...as far as I know, there is no way to replace/backup your clone from inside w-space.

Food isn't required per se, most things in the game require some kind of resource to keep it going: ships require capacitor power, ammo, drones, nanites, etc.  Star bases consume a considerable amount of exotic fuels in order to function.  Like real life, everything in Eve is made from other things.  Ships are built by players: they're built from blueprints, and require specific components and skill sets in order to put it all together.  And a construction facility, which itself must be built as well.  Components to make these things come from factories (which are often player-built as well), and those factories get their materials from refineries, which process raw materials, which come from industrial operations: mining, harvesting, stealing, etc.  In w-space, the simple fact is that you bring in what you can, but it's up to you to continually find new natural resources.  Or lay siege to somebody else's star base, or raid their logistics chain and take their stuff.  That works too.

Only the most mundane, abundant minerals are usually available in hi-sec systems.  The rare and valuable stuff can only be found in the sketchier corners of space.  The in-game explanation is fairly straight-forward: the valuable stuff was pretty much exhausted in the densely populated areas, so now days we have to search far and wide for it.  Of course, this is a purposeful game mechanic: it forces people to up the risk if they want to up their reward.  In hi-security space, you can set your ship to mine, and then go afk.  If you bring along a few combat drones, the pesky "belt rats" (NPCs) won't be much of a problem.  Anywhere else (low sec, 0.0, w-space), if you stop paying attention, it's only a matter of time before you are found by someone or something.  Player or otherwise, if anybody finds you, they are not stopping by just to say hello.  Mining ops are srs bzns!TM!, because they keep a w-space corp alive, they are prime targets for pvp attacks, and they are necessarily conducted away from the relative safety of a star base.  Armed escorts (other players) are almost always a necessity.

And as a reminder, most of what I've been talking about is end-game type stuff.  A hundred thousand players are perfectly content to stay in hi-sec for years, where there is just as much to do (if not more) that does not involve the levels of risk found in 0.0 and w-space.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 09:24:45 pm by _username »
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Offline phonixor

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2011, 09:35:23 pm »
you told me you can't bring those bigger ship thingies through worm holes...
but can't you just construct the shipyards, and then the Titans/Motherships in W space?
and can you have mining bots? and automatic supply chains or do you have to mine manually

in other words:
- can you have bots other then combat drones?
- can you assign orders to bots?
- how complex can these be?

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Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2011, 10:24:46 pm »
Titans and Motherships can only be constructed within a Capital Ship Assembly Array.  Those items cannot be anchored unless the owning alliance holds Sovereignty, which is a very convoluted subject in its own right.  Along with Sovereignty, the alliance must have developed that's system's infrastructure with a focus on strategic upgrades.

No Sovereignty means no Strategic Upgrades, which means no Capital Ship Assembly Array, which means no Titan.  Even if it was possible to build one out there, the Titan would be stuck in that particular w-space system once it was built.  Cynosural fields are a Titan's only method of interstellar transportation (they're way too big to use wormholes, jump bridges or stargates).  Cyno field theory is built upon some kind of faster-than-light subspace voodoo that is unavailable in w-space.  Ask a Jovian (if you ever see one), because I doubt anybody else actually knows.  Maybe the w-space systems are just too far apart, even for navigation methods that were designed to travel lightyears in an instant.  In any case, it's one of several game mechanics that CCP uses to make sure that w-space retains a distinctly different feel, compared to 0.0.

But I got off track.  BOTS.  You can use mining drones, which help to automate the process.  If you meant "bot" as in a game client that has been cracked or manipulated by third party software...yes, plenty of people do that too.  Some of them are even smart enough to automatically make themselves scarce if they detect an unknown person entering the system.  Plenty of people also get banned for doing that (as with most MMOs who care at all about a stable in-game ecnomy).
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Offline phonixor

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2011, 02:05:05 pm »
no i didn't mean using different account, i meant in game mechanics... which i understand mining drones are... that's very interesting... maybe you can translate that to the WOD MMO as a barkeeper (bloodlines) that you can train, to not hold on to the money, but put it onto your bar account or something :P

ensuring a stable income flow, for as long as you can hold those properties.

even though the titans might be restricted in that W quadrant, being able to respawn there defenitly helps your claim on the area :P

as far as i read Jovian are the only human race players can't play...
but is it possible to obtain the technologies through trade with them?
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Offline _username

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2011, 04:56:36 pm »
There are very few direct interactions with the Jove Empire, and they seem uninterested in trade.  Unlike the main four races, they didn't fall into a 10,000 year dark age after Eve collapsed (the original gateway to the Milky Way, some 26,000 years in the past).  Because of this, they are ridiculously advanced.  Some of their technology is indirectly available to players.  Maybe the most common example is the Angel Cartel's unique design, the Machariel battleship.  Unlike most faction ships, which are purpose-built modifications of existing ship hulls, the "Mach" is a radically different design.  The Jovians themselves fly a unique assortment of ships, but since nobody has their blueprints, they cannot be manufactured by players.
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Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2011, 11:10:57 pm »
A hundred thousand players are perfectly content to stay in hi-sec for years, where there is just as much to do (if not more) that does not involve the levels of risk found in 0.0 and w-space.
What _username neglects to mention here is that it also takes you YEARS of in-game training and accumulation of resources to get to the point where you can simply survive in 0.0 or w-space.   :justabite:

But I got off track
Yeah, you did. If phonixor wants to learn how to play the game, he should play the game. Let's go back to the emergent roleplaying business, because that's the interesting part. More on how it might work in the WODMMO, given your experiences in EVE Online?

I can speak personally as to the ease of getting into that mode of thinking while playing EVE Online. I've only played in high-sec space (lowest I ever got was I think .4, because I was delivering stuff many, many systems away), but the visual effects are just as impressive in those systems as they are in low-sec. They also have a lot more in the way of population of both PCs and NPCs, like CONCORD and stations and agents. The mission system is a little dry, but there are lots of chains and mini-storylines that help to make the world seem a bit more alive. The regular updates, expansions, and videos that CCP publishes (like the introduction of W-space, or the coronation of the Amarr Empress) do what no other MMO I've played has done, not even Star Wars Galaxies and their updates on the Galactic Civil War. (In that case, it could be talking about events on a server totally different than the one you played on, so there was a "WTH is going on??" disconnect.)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 04:34:52 am by Rick Gentle »
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Offline phonixor

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2011, 12:09:45 am »
Yeah, you did. If phonixor wants to learn how to play the game, he should play the game. Let's go back to the emergent roleplaying business, because that's the interesting part. More on how it might work in the WODMMO, given your experiences in EVE Online?
I am interested in game mechanics, and there excuses for them, and how they seem to limit stuff.
This insight into CCP helps me understand what to expect, and helps me be able to convert the game mechanics to the WOD MMO, just like you wanted. I already did this in this very thread!
So i think you jumped to conclusions a little to hasty.

One of the interesting things i learned about this whole Jovian Directorate thing is that they do allow powers and strengths to be out of reach of player characters.
This can for instance be translated that even if antediluvian like characters are in game, you probably won't be able to diablorize them.

As far as i understand now, all other big things can be player controlled and made
(well i doubt anything can become as powerful as CONRAD)
I really hope this means that we are able to physically effect the cities, be able to get out of clan disciplines and stuff. Because i have never heard of a game in which they gave players so much power! I find this very refreshing, promising and interesting!

I can speak personally as to the ease of getting into that mode of thinking while playing EVE Online. I've only played in high-sec space (lowest I ever got was I think .4, because I was delivering stuff many, many systems away), but the visual effects are just as impressive in those systems as they are in low-sec. They also have a lot more in the way of population of both PCs and NPCs, like CONCORD and stations and agents. The mission system is a little dry, but there are lots of chains and mini-storylines that help to make the world seem a bit more alive.
Can you be more elaborate on the quest system in EVE?
- i heard something about player based quest?
- long quest lines?
- story involved behind them?
- impact on the rest of the world?
- do they unlock special stuff/unable to obtain otherwise?
I do hope for many quest lines, and CCP driven content in the game.
It would be really lame if the storytellers of White Wolf keep all there good stuff for the books.
Though i don't think it realistic to expect anything otherwise :) (pretty please)
Sure player based stuff, can apparently be really great if i hear the stuff about EVE, but i don't see those ever resolve into gehenna scenarios or mayor plots. These things define the setting and are vital for the whole theme! Without the proper setting, and the mayor importance of these kind of events, it will turn into just a bushiness type of game like EVE(once again as far as i understand it), and that wouldn't do the WOD justice. (don't get me wrong the whole player driven economics system should definitely be there, and it sounds great in EVE, but it should just be a part (a smaller part then in EVE))
 
The regular updates, expansions, and videos that CCP publishes (like the introduction of W-space, or the coronation of the Amarr Empress) do what no other MMO I've played has done, not even Star Wars Galaxies[/i] and their updates on the Galactic Civil War. (In that case, it could be talking about events on a server totally different than the one you played on, so there was a "WTH is going on??" disconnect.)
Mmmh, your not very explicit again. Though with so much sandbox/player power in game, i guess it's harder to actually run out of content, which is something a lot of players in other MMO's have trouble with. After you done all quest all you could do is run the same dungeon over and over again, until you have that rare drop. Which is just to repetitive, time consuming, and boring!

Unless they add archmages, with high level space magic,  i really doubt we will be able to see W-Space like stuff. What i foresee is that they make more and more buildings accessible during each patch. and maybe expand the cities with suburbs and second districts. Though this goes back to the discussions on a different thread. Though i think being able to own for instance residential buildings/districts, and collect rent, and have feeding rights/ground there. Does give the players the feeling they are the masters that control humanity from the shadows.

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Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2011, 05:12:08 am »
The solution to everlasting complexity and interest is solved to a great extent simply by making most of the game's content PC-reliant, as in EVE Online. You can mine, build, fly, and destroy ships without ever having to interact with an NPC or take a quest. Alternatively, in the World of WarCraft paradigm, NPCs are the driving force behind everything. They give quests - they are the targets of quests - they are the raid bosses - they are the city guards. The only extent the WoW paradigm encourages Massively Multiplayer content is by forcing players to band together to accomplish anything. Roleplaying is almost nonexistent.

The thing about emergent roleplaying - and roleplaying in general, really - is that you don't need mechanics to back it up. The goal is to make the wishes of the character match the wishes of the player (or vice versa), so that when you're talking about the game, you're talking "in-character". This sort of thing is really only possible with a design like EVE Online, because there are no such things as raid bosses or epic lootz that spoil the immersion. If you're worried about gear, you call it by its name, not "the Archmagus set-piece" or "go kill Gruul". If you need missiles, you ask for missiles; you use those missiles to accomplish the tasks you set for yourself in-game (presumably killin' stuff, though you could also be an acquisitions guy for your corp, a trader, etc, etc), and you gain the benefit of completing that goal, which is both your goal - as a player interested in getting ahead in the game - and your character's goal - as a character interested in getting ahead in the game.

The mechanics used to bring about this cooperative spirit are of secondary importance. This is at least a level above the "how" things are done - the better questions to pursue are "why" and "for who" they are done. If the game is successful in its emergent roleplaying, the player should be the one providing the answers to these questions, and they should both be "For me, the player-character." Giving players the incentive and the motivation to improve their character in less tangible ways is what separates roleplaying from simple grinding. In grinding, you advance mechanically, with a level system or even just dots on a character sheet. In roleplaying, things like reputation, background, and motivation again are just as important - they will affect how other people react to you, and the direction you want to take in the game.

For example, you have just lost one of your havens to a money-grubbing Toreador posuer. You want to make sure this doesn't happen again - in-character for the reason that you need a place to stay out of the sun, and because it makes you look like a pansy in the eyes of the court - out-of-character because it makes you look like a pansy in the eyes of the court, and because you've just lost the domain that accompanied that haven site, as well as things like your furniture and accessories, which you spent a lot of your free time accumulating. The thing to do, then, is get back at the Toreador for nabbing your haven, preferably with interest. Ths makes you, the player, more respected for being able to get back at a rival, and would have the same effect for your character if your character were operating on their own initiative.
That, to me, is what emergent roleplaying is. The mechanical foundation of the game isn't what keeps you playing - it's the investment you have in your character and their future.
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Offline phonixor

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2011, 10:45:02 am »
Ok, i see what you describe as getting things interesting around PC instead of NPC, as a game mechanic/design. So other then semantics i guess we can kinda agree on that.
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Offline Radical21

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Re: Emergent Roleplay
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2011, 12:37:50 pm »
The thing about emergent roleplaying - and roleplaying in general, really - is that you don't need mechanics to back it up. The goal is to make the wishes of the character match the wishes of the player (or vice versa), so that when you're talking about the game, you're talking "in-character".

Actually Emergent roleplaying is all about mechanics used to set the stage and motivate players to become more immersed in the game, roleplaying as results, but there are always mechanics to back it up, if its the way PvP is designed or other interactions the player need to go through to achieve success.

Though EVE has many "Go-fetch" quests , the mechanics that really sets it apart are the PvP and Economy related mechanics that indirectly lead to this emergent roleplaying.. without these constraints or lack there of  the game would probably be played like any other mainstream MMORPG.

 

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