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Bloodlines 2 General discussion / Re: But what about the Ghouls ?
« Last post by DarkProphet on May 23, 2019, 06:26:40 AM »
I think you can actually turn her, and Yukie :)!

Can't imagine Yukie agreeing to that.

You talk her into it by convincing her it would make her job hunting demons easier and give her even more power.

I can understand it from a gameplay perspective of giving her some reason to become a ghoul, but narratively, I agree with Highwayman that she would never really go for that. =p

Don't mess with my Bloodlines 1 waifu. ;D
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But humans are OBVIOUSLY NOT cows xD... we might make analogies about their relationship to the kindred, sure... but humans are self-determined living beings with some degree of free will and the capacity for great amounts of emotional and physical suffering. It's obviously a bigger, more terrifying thing to kill a human than it is to kill a cow. And it is quite the gargantuan horror to kill hundreds of humans every year.

Its the circle of life and killing a vampire to save the lives of a food source is murder even if that food source is sentient.  Camarilla law is pretty clear about when its OK to slay another vampire and none of those conditions are met when our character is given the chance to kill Pisha.  Absolutely positively none.  1. A blood hunt has not been called on her.  2. She is not your unreleased childe and 3. You are not dueling her to the death with the go ahead from a Camarilla Conclave.  She is not a prince that you are challenging.  Regardless of your motives and the righteousness you feel about it, you HAVE committed what would be seen as a murder and a crime in the eyes of the Camarilla.  Full stop.  And its a murder your character winds up keeping quiet about.  And even if you think that Pisha has broken Camarilla law (there is no evidence that she actually has) its not your place to dish out her punishment in the eyes of the Camarilla. 

I guess what it boils down to is do our vampire PCs obey Camarilla law or not?  Mine doesn't necessarily do so but he still doesn't feel that it is proper to kill Pisha.  As I have said before, we all have to make our own choices.

Highwayman, I agree with your point on a moral level. However, Zephyr is correct about the Camarilla laws. This is why I often don't like the Camarilla. Their "justice" isn't just. Kindred have rights and humans do not, according to Camarilla law. Bloodlines 1 is a great game, but it doesn't really show you just how many flaws there are with the Camarilla. They do a lot of good, but they're also pretty awful in other ways.

Heck, you even have to follow the Prince's orders if you're one of them. I'm not just talking about being a newbie an errand boy/girl for the Prince like in Bloodlines 1. You could prove yourself an asset to the Camarilla and become a citizen under it, doing your own thing for a decade without upsetting anyone. Then one day, the Prince commands you to murder ten harmless mentally ill humans and he tells you they've done nothing wrong to anyone and aren't endangering the Masquerade. Hell, they don't even know about Kindred. When you ask him "Why?" He just smiles and tells you "It would amuse me."

If you obey, you get to keep unliving. If you don't obey...well, you've just disobeyed a direct order from your Prince. That is grounds for a Blood Hunt to be called on you, and now everyone in the city is accountable to hunt you down and kill you...not just killing you, but with the encouragement of Diablerie. Yes, Diablerie is legal on the target of a Blood Hunt. So you don't just die but your soul is swallowed as well if whomever takes you out wishes to do that. And why is this happening to you, a loyal follower in the Camarilla for years? Because you disagreed with a cruel, whimsical order from the Prince to murder the innocent.

One might then say "Oh, but the Camarilla has high standards for becoming a Prince so you would never get a Tyrant and-" BULLSHIT. Anyone wanna know what the requirement is to become Prince per Camarilla law? Go somewhere that doesn't have a Prince. Send someone out (your "herald") to let everyone know that you have "declared praxis" (you are declaring that you are the Prince). That's it. All you have to do now is hold onto your claim. So you could walk into a small city that has ten independent vampires in it, declare yourself the Prince, and now per Camarilla law, you run the city unless someone can "dethrone" you and become Prince in your place.
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Bloodlines 2 General discussion / Re: But what about the Ghouls ?
« Last post by DarkZephyr on May 23, 2019, 06:18:46 AM »
I think you can actually turn her, and Yukie :)!

Can't imagine Yukie agreeing to that.

You talk her into it by convincing her it would make her job hunting demons easier and give her even more power.
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Bloodlines 2 General discussion / Re: Playable Clans
« Last post by DarkProphet on May 23, 2019, 06:00:57 AM »
Lot of nice material here. Begin the dissection !

He is specifically passing a judgement on said communication, I think, and I agree with him. Someone who seems motivated completely by personal, emotional issues, is doing a disservice to the community by voicing these thoughts, without considering the ramifications. There is a limit to actionable feedback in this world, and if "suggestions" of this type were taken seriously, they would kill any game. His criticism could be levied at all parts of the project from any angle, since it just involves someone being made uncomfortable/unhappy by parallels between real-life and in-game content.

"They would kill any game"

But... Rage 2 has sold like condoms at a swingers party. I lack the hard data but I don't believe the article had any effect on it's sales. So this argument seems a bit far-fetched. In the end, all that this man did is state an opinion. Nothing else happened, nobody lost their job, nobody was killed... nothing happened.

While it hasn't been confirmed that Rage 2 is definitely failing or under-performing, there is evidence to at least suggest that it is failing or under-performing: https://www.pcgamesn.com/rage-2/sales And did this article play some part in that? According to the people in the comments on his article, it allegedly cost a few sales, and if other people agreed and voted with their wallets in the same manner without commenting on his article, then he indeed may have made a difference, even if it was small. There's certainly no data to support that he has helped sales.

As to no one losing their job...that depends on the sales, and as far as "nothing else" happening, I just addressed that at least a couple of people have decided not to buy the game based on his article. "State an opinion" is not "all he did." He published the article on a major gaming news site and called these people out for insensitivity, also making the claim that it's not just him whose feel-feels are hurt:

"But here it is anyway. Another mutant with a cleft, letting me know this one is truly subhuman, so far from the other humans that it can be mounted like a hunted animal. It adds the tiniest environmental flavor for some players, but makes others feel like absolute trash.
So much for a “little more” sensitivity."

Excuse me? He makes no claim of having polled anyone, yet here he is saying "some players." He's the only person in the world that we know of who felt disenfranchised by the cleft palates. What a devious prick.

Also, the article is not labeled as an opinion piece, but as an essay! It's at the top left corner in pink font of the article, whereas if you look at this Tomb Raider article, it is marked as an opinion piece yet both are roughly the same length and are clearly opinions: https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/11/17961496/tomb-raider-death-animations

Quote
To put it another way, it's almost as silly as saying to someone writing a horror story "turn this into a comedy, because I don't like horror".

It's more like "The villain in your story has Down's Syndrome... I actually have Down's Syndrome and it hurts me to see myself represented that way".

That's not an order. The writer of the horror story is not obligated in any way whatsoever to change it. BUT... if he does, then perhaps it was for a reason, perhaps other people see the first person's viewpoint and empathize with his plight, thus... the horror story doesn't sell well because it looks like it attacks people with a disability.

Well, the writer of the article called the devs insensitive for not doing it. This dude was demanding change while trying to act like he's being polite about it. He asked for change, didn't get it, and wrote a hit piece about them being insensitive when they didn't cave to his demands. The guy is a scumbag. Unethical is unethical. No one needs to die or lose a limb for someone to be scum.

Also, Down Syndrome has a huge effect on a person's mind, and thus, his or her actions. A cleft palate does not, unless there's a tea-sipping section of the movie in which the character is brought great shame due to the disfigurement. Rage 2 clearly isn't attacking people with one or two mutations. It is presenting creatures who are truly no longer human as they have mutated extensively and have numerous mutations, undoubtedly both inside and outside, which cause not only their bodies but their minds to differ from the average human. They are willing to murder humans without need as they are so far gone and so inhuman. A freaking cleft palate isn't what makes them inhuman. Triple the mutations suffered by a Chernobyl victim for multiple generations on end is what makes them inhuman, and the writer seems intelligent enough to know this, but unethical enough to dodge the truth so that he can slam the devs for not caving to his demands.
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But humans are OBVIOUSLY NOT cows xD... we might make analogies about their relationship to the kindred, sure... but humans are self-determined living beings with some degree of free will and the capacity for great amounts of emotional and physical suffering. It's obviously a bigger, more terrifying thing to kill a human than it is to kill a cow. And it is quite the gargantuan horror to kill hundreds of humans every year.

Its the circle of life and killing a vampire to save the lives of a food source is murder even if that food source is sentient.  Camarilla law is pretty clear about when its OK to slay another vampire and none of those conditions are met when our character is given the chance to kill Pisha.  Absolutely positively none.  1. A blood hunt has not been called on her.  2. She is not your unreleased childe and 3. You are not dueling her to the death with the go ahead from a Camarilla Conclave.  She is not a prince that you are challenging.  Regardless of your motives and the righteousness you feel about it, you HAVE committed what would be seen as a murder and a crime in the eyes of the Camarilla.  Full stop.  And its a murder your character winds up keeping quiet about.  And even if you think that Pisha has broken Camarilla law (there is no evidence that she actually has) its not your place to dish out her punishment in the eyes of the Camarilla. 

I guess what it boils down to is do our vampire PCs obey Camarilla law or not?  Mine doesn't necessarily do so but he still doesn't feel that it is proper to kill Pisha.  As I have said before, we all have to make our own choices.
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Bloodlines 2 General discussion / Re: Playable Clans
« Last post by Highwayman667 on May 23, 2019, 05:20:53 AM »
Lot of nice material here. Begin the dissection !

He is specifically passing a judgement on said communication, I think, and I agree with him. Someone who seems motivated completely by personal, emotional issues, is doing a disservice to the community by voicing these thoughts, without considering the ramifications. There is a limit to actionable feedback in this world, and if "suggestions" of this type were taken seriously, they would kill any game. His criticism could be levied at all parts of the project from any angle, since it just involves someone being made uncomfortable/unhappy by parallels between real-life and in-game content.

"They would kill any game"

But... Rage 2 has sold like condoms at a swingers party. I lack the hard data but I don't believe the article had any effect on it's sales. So this argument seems a bit far-fetched. In the end, all that this man did is state an opinion. Nothing else happened, nobody lost their job, nobody was killed... nothing happened.

To put it another way, it's almost as silly as saying to someone writing a horror story "turn this into a comedy, because I don't like horror".

It's more like "The villain in your story has Down's Syndrome... I actually have Down's Syndrome and it hurts me to see myself represented that way".

That's not an order. The writer of the horror story is not obligated in any way whatsoever to change it. BUT... if he does, then perhaps it was for a reason, perhaps other people see the first person's viewpoint and empathize with his plight, thus... the horror story doesn't sell well because it looks like it attacks people with a disability.
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I don't really consider my question irrelevant because that's the same question my character asks himself when he decides not to slay her.

And maybe that's fine for your character because he doesn't seem to be concerned about humans. However, if the Camarilla or the Anarchs (only two likely candidates) care in any way for kine... then the question doesn't really matter because your character or mine are not the ones getting cannibalized.

As I had said before, I think that if the Camarilla ever found out that I had killed Pisha for simply being herself, I would find myself being the one one in violation of Camarilla law. You aren't supposed to murder other vampires.  And by vampire law, killing Pisha for being what she is is murder.

I don't know about this. Camarilla law is pretty severe; final death seems to be the sentence for most crimes. There are no vampire prisons to my knowledge, so if you embrace ilegally, kill people for sport or break the masquerade too often then you simply get the Sheriff's sword (in Lacroix's case). We might discuss the difference between murdering and executing but... kindred don't really care much about "unlife".

As I mentioned previously, if a human being went around killing other human beings to stop the butchering of animals for meat they would be hunted down by the cops as a dangerous serial killer.

But humans are OBVIOUSLY NOT cows xD... we might make analogies about their relationship to the kindred, sure... but humans are self-determined living beings with some degree of free will and the capacity for great amounts of emotional and physical suffering. It's obviously a bigger, more terrifying thing to kill a human than it is to kill a cow. And it is quite the gargantuan horror to kill hundreds of humans every year.
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Bloodlines 2 General discussion / Re: But what about the Ghouls ?
« Last post by Highwayman667 on May 23, 2019, 04:52:20 AM »
I think you can actually turn her, and Yukie :)!

Can't imagine Yukie agreeing to that.
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Bloodlines 2 General discussion / Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Last post by Highwayman667 on May 23, 2019, 04:51:04 AM »
I think the developers already said that this time you will have more choice in what faction you align with...

Damn you Lacroix... I might be going Camarilla if that's the way it is.

Going Camarilla was one of my usual two endings even if the ending, moving the sarcophagus into a warehouse - did they kill all of those who moved it to keep the secret? - was lame.  My favorite was going independent (giving the middle finger to Nines was so fulfilling!)  :)

There's truly nothing like going independent. That middle finger also made the game for me.
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Bloodlines Tech Support / Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Last post by Emeus on May 23, 2019, 02:35:44 AM »
What happens when the dancing is over? Didn't you have time to sneak away?

No, they awake right up, full with their sight, and sometimes you get exposed immediately right after commanded a dance.

Not to mention there are situations which need you to trance 2 people together to sneak away, making one of them dance then it's time to reload, and perhaps again later.
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