Author Topic: Cease and Desist  (Read 13698 times)

Offline atrblizzard

  • Administratrix
  • Methuselah
  • *****
  • Posts: 262
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2015, 01:58:48 PM »
If people wanted a Vampire game badly enough it would have happened by now regardless of any C&D.

This, I cannot stress this enough. Creating the assets per se isn't the biggest issue to face. It has more to do with the new IP to be as close to WOD in terms of quality and sustainability.

Well, there are a couple of Vampire games, besides the Castlevania series reboot, e.g. Dark, Blood Knights, and probably the best of the lot so far BloodLust Shadowhunter. Although, truth be told, nothing beats VMTB and VTMR for me.

Got to be honest, never found a game to be as great as VTM:B and VTM:R, no matter what other vampire related games are out there. Dark is just a huge disaster, a sign out there on how NOT to do a vampire or any game in that matter. But a combined game between VTM:B and VTM:R as Saphrax pointed out would pan out if done properly.

There's a lot we can learn from Bloodlines, on what works and what doesn't work, same with the WOD lore and to do something better than some of their decisions (like oWoD's ending). The lore has to be my weakest point right now regarding WoD, but I am curious though, how many would be in for a new vampire game, similar to Bloodlines and single player and how many are willing to kickstart such an initiative?

It is true that Sanguine Nights: Darkest Blood didn't work out too well because it was first stated as a multiplayer RPG game, then later on turned into a hybrid game, but at the same time, people were highly interested in the World of Darkness MMO. Now that the MMO has been canceled more than a year ago, and Project Dogmat, while is very exciting for the purpose of bringing back the MMO to life in their own lore, there is still not a single player vampire game feasible for a Bloodlines spiritual success.

Getting people to work on such a game isn't much of a hassle development wise, but lore wise. It has to be really good lore wise and implementation wise. I want to hear the community's opinion if they are interested in what could be the best Bloodlines spiritual success with the community's aid. Remember, it won't happen if nobody is doing anything about it. ;)


Offline Bohemian Toreador

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Only Beauty redeems...
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #76 on: October 11, 2015, 04:47:19 PM »
If people wanted a Vampire game badly enough it would have happened by now regardless of any C&D.

This, I cannot stress this enough. Creating the assets per se isn't the biggest issue to face. It has more to do with the new IP to be as close to WOD in terms of quality and sustainability.

True enough. The depth of the lore is what makes the WoD IP so great. VTMR and VTMB are great games in their own right, especially at this point with the UP (VTMB) and mods, but their real allure lies in fact that they are kind of cRPG "WoD sessions".

The thing is that the new indie IP should be close enough to some of the most fundamental themes of VTM, but at the same time it should be safe from C&D threat, i.e. it should also be different enough so as to not get C&D letter from CCP. This is no easy feat, but so far Project Dogmat seems like they are kind of able to pull it off, it seems to me. Maybe their IP (which from the previews available so far seems to be close enough to WoD, yet distinct enough so as to be safe from C&D) could be used for a single player cRPG as well?

There's a lot we can learn from Bloodlines, on what works and what doesn't work, same with the WoD lore and to do something better than some of their decisions (like oWoD's ending). The lore has to be my weakest point right now regarding WoD, but I am curious though, how many would be in for a new vampire game, similar to Bloodlines and single player and how many are willing to kickstart such an initiative?
...
Getting people to work on such a game isn't much of a hassle development wise, but lore wise. It has to be really good lore wise and implementation wise. I want to hear the community's opinion if they are interested in what could be the best Bloodlines spiritual success with the community's aid. Remember, it won't happen if nobody is doing anything about it. ;)

I would definitely Kickstart such a project. I have not been keeping up with the development tools for over a decade, so you may be right that the development on a modern engine with right set of tools is maybe the easy part. The problem with the lore is that no matter what you do, you just won't get such a depth as there is to WoD - from plethora of sourcebooks for p'n'p/larp to the novels (and yeah, I disregard the Gehenna novel (and the sourcebook, for that matter), which should be retconned out of existence altogether - fortunately, for the gaming sessions (especially with V20) you can do pretty well without any of the surrounding Gehenna fluff). Still, if you get the lore right (and I repeat that PD's efforts seems worthwile), you can have lot of shout-outs to the WoD lore without directly copying it.

Or maybe there might be a way to set the game in a scifi-gothic setting (say on Mars - think of Total Recall/Mars: War Logs vampire style) while not explicitely severing the ties with the actual WoD IP. New environment might have brought new bloodlines with their own politics and stuff and/or local clans' branches changed names (and for IP reasons also disciplines' names need to be changed) because of political struggle with the old planet (meaning Kindred politics here, spilling of course into the Kine politics), and if the subsequent connection with the old planet was severed because of some cataclysmic event (like in Mars: War Logs) then it would explain why there is no further Camarilla/Sabbat interference (although their local variants might as well exist under their own "Martian" names, committed to their respective agendas - but in order to avoid getting the C&D letter, there better be more sects that maybe "branched" from their original ones after the things got going on Mars).

There could be some subtle "easter eggs" pointing out that the history of the Martian Kindred (that is now stranded in the gothic-punk post apocalyptic Mars society) stems from the oWoD (but done in a way that no C&D would be coming - so perhaps the most we can hope for would be no explicit oWoD connection but the fact that the setting actually does not contradict the oWoD lore, which should be fine since it would be different enough, yet keeping the same vibe).

Yeah, I am just rambling here, I know.

In fact, at this point I would probably be glad even for non oWoD IP (with enough shout-outs to WoD, like PD seems to be) single player cRPG.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 05:46:10 PM by Bohemian Toreador »

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #77 on: October 11, 2015, 08:24:39 PM »
but I am curious though, how many would be in for a new vampire game, similar to Bloodlines and single player and how many are willing to kickstart such an initiative?


Ill go ahead and say that what kept me hooked on VTMR and introduced me to the P&P was actually the unique multiplayer experience(VTMR's Storyteller Mode):

Many P&P fans would dis it outright on account of having a graphical representation and that it makes use of chat instead of voice, but to me these were actually strengths that made the experience more immersive:
-instead of voices and faces that sound/look nothing like the characters: I am free to imagine them speaking and looking like the player intended them to be.
-The interactive 3d environment and avatars can save hours of descriptions (reading and writing) and inspire ideas about how to interact with the scene.

There were plenty of downsides of course but with today's engines and tools these could be overcome fairly easily.


Singleplayer-game is good also but I think that on the AAA level it takes much more work to get off the ground because to make it you also need Strong story, Directing and Plenty more Voice over work and Animation right out of the box....
In Multiplayer on the other hand its enough if you start off with a platform and a few assets.

Quote
Sanguine Nights: Darkest Blood
I think it was very ambtious at the time for what it tried to deliver. personally I didn't buy into their concept of steampunk vampires.
Looking at making these type of multiplayer games (MMOs , Large scale shooters) the main issue is sustainability because you need to pay server rent for a decent server with less lag and hope that enough people are willing to help the upkeep.
So IMO better to develop something that can function over VPN services.

Quote
Or maybe there might be a way to set the game in a scifi-gothic setting (say on Mars - think of Total Recall/Mars: War Logs vampire style) while not explicitely severing the ties with the actual WoD IP.
The Problem is that if you take the settings to a very different direction , then comes a question "Why Vampires?" (why not dark superheroes). That becomes my thought process when I think about designing that stuff.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 08:46:55 PM by Radical21 »

Offline Bohemian Toreador

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Only Beauty redeems...
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2015, 09:02:43 PM »
The Problem is that if you take the settings to a very different direction , then comes a question "Why Vampires?" (why not dark superheroes). That becomes my thought process when I think about designing that stuff.

I see your point, but let me put it this way: from my point of view the question is not "Why Vampires" but rather "Why 'very different direction'?" (say scifi-gothic Mars after some cataclysm that severed its society from the Earth). The only real reason is to keep the possible compatibility with WoD IP in the way I suggested (or any other potentially better way... you see the point). That's why  :vampsmile:

Offline Wesp5

  • Administratrix
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 5943
  • Unofficial Patcher
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2015, 09:13:18 PM »
The only real reason is to keep the possible compatibility with WoD IP in the way I suggested (or any other potentially better way... you see the point). That's why  :vampsmile:

The problem is even in a Mars setting you would get a C&D letter once the similarities are too obvious. Also in my opinion one of the best parts of both VtM:R and VtM:B was that they play in our past and present world and not some generic SF or fantasy alternative! As for the lore, I don't know much more than I learned while working on Bloodlines but just speaking from a gameplay point of view, it should be possible to reduce the number of clans and thus avoid most of the WoD similarities. Like one fighter clan, one stealth clan, one social clan and one mage clan...

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2015, 09:23:51 PM »
The Problem is that if you take the settings to a very different direction , then comes a question "Why Vampires?" (why not dark superheroes). That becomes my thought process when I think about designing that stuff.

I see your point, but let me put it this way: from my point of view the question is not "Why Vampires" but rather "Why 'very different direction'?" (say scifi-gothic Mars after some cataclysm that severed its society from the Earth). The only real reason is to keep the possible compatibility with WoD IP in the way I suggested (or any other potentially better way... you see the point). That's why  :vampsmile:

Another question is why our community is being targeted by Onyx Path or CCP while stuff like Vampire Diaries are allowed to go on unscathed?
What is their actual trademark when it comes to that stuff?
I mean I know the real answer is money but doesn't make it right legally.


it should be possible to reduce the number of clans and thus avoid most of the WoD similarities. Like one fighter clan, one stealth clan, one social clan and one mage clan...

Or just avoid calling them clans and call them Covens?

Although to be honest I'm more excited by the idea of players deciding what their organization is about.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 09:29:30 PM by Radical21 »

Offline Sabbat_stalker

  • Neonate
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2015, 02:50:56 PM »
If paradox allowed you to continue project vaulderie would you do it ?
Or are you burned out now and don't have the motivation , time or passion to do it now ?

Offline atrblizzard

  • Administratrix
  • Methuselah
  • *****
  • Posts: 262
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2015, 08:00:46 AM »
I would say yes in a heart beat. I still haven't lost my passion on it or given up on it. However I have a full time job which means I have little to no time, but that could be arranged if all goes well.

Offline Sabbat_stalker

  • Neonate
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2015, 10:53:58 AM »
I have just had a thought :
If you do get permission to continue , you will have to start from the very beginning since you stated earlier that you have deleted all previous work from your pc .

Offline samspin

  • Administratrix
  • Neonate
  • *****
  • Posts: 96
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2015, 04:58:58 PM »
I have just had a thought :
If you do get permission to continue , you will have to start from the very beginning since you stated earlier that you have deleted all previous work from your pc .
Although the C&D letter told to delete all work containing copyrighted images/elements, the actual project was designed to require one to have the original game and extract the required resources from it directly to build individually on each user's PC. At least from my understanding. Therefore it is possible atrblizzard still has at least some code saved for reuse on something else, or had used work unrelated to the project from prior work on something else in the past. PC game engines tend to be recycled from game to game with modifications to make them fit each purpose. I guess time will tell.

Offline Wesp5

  • Administratrix
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 5943
  • Unofficial Patcher
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2015, 06:53:10 PM »
I would say yes in a heart beat. I still haven't lost my passion on it or given up on it. However I have a full time job which means I have little to no time, but that could be arranged if all goes well.

If you really want to do that, you need to check with Activision. Because even if Paradox has no problems, the actual game assets are copyright of Activision and they can stop you anytime as well!

Offline atrblizzard

  • Administratrix
  • Methuselah
  • *****
  • Posts: 262
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2015, 09:05:22 AM »
If you really want to do that, you need to check with Activision. Because even if Paradox has no problems, the actual game assets are copyright of Activision and they can stop you anytime as well!

It's funny that after all these years we feared Activision would be the one to shut us down, which in return it turns out to be the IP holders. Contacted Tobias regarding the project, hopefully we'll get some light shred about it soon enough. In any case, it'd still load the original game's asset, which would act nothing more than an engine replacement.

Offline Solar

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2015, 12:27:45 PM »
I'm curious if there was any news regarding Project Vaulderie. I recall them saying something on FB about asking Paradox to start the project again?

Offline Signothorn

  • God Hates Fangs
  • Administratrix
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 15176
Re: Cease and Desist
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2015, 07:46:13 PM »
I'm curious if there was any news regarding Project Vaulderie. I recall them saying something on FB about asking Paradox to start the project again?

As of yesterday when I chatted with AtrBlizzard, he hadn't heard back about his request.