Author Topic: Album: Project Vaulderie  (Read 7549 times)

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 06:25:46 PM »
I'm okay with just the ability to mod Bloodlines. I've wanted to add a winery to Hollywood for a while. And also "The Blow Job" quest. And also new Gangrel skins. And... and, maybe, killable werewolves?
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Offline dbs

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 10:15:36 PM »
Judging from the comments people are more interested in a MP game or mini-MMO in the world of Bloodlines than just a remake of the game itself. Maybe you should indeed start again with a MP demo to get attention before taking on the single-player game, which I still believe may be too much work for just two people ;)!

There are mixed feelings about this, many favor the multiplayer or a mini-MMO because of what happened to WoD MMO while others still would like single-player to come out first. Either way the game is being built with the editor in mind along with networking, which is why the multiplayer term is used ambiguously. Everything is built with networking in mind from the beginning to get every major component and the core to communicate between themselves via networking too. We'll keep on working on the multiplayer elements but as I mentioned in the past many times, anything that gets done for single player will work in multiplayer and vice versa, minus the networking and of course, leaving each where it makes sense.

I often think people highly confuse the intention of this project, but we want to make sure it's going to be the Bloodlines we know and love, with additional improvements where it make sense to be implemented, and for it being an MMO wouldn't feel right at all, because the hub maps alone are not as big, especially not Santa Monica. Story teller mode, co-op, and additional role playing are going to be an option, but an MMO is pretty far fetched. We can provide the same MMO feeling and all, but pulling off such a huge scaled MMO will require a high amount of man power and networking services that can accomplish this.

I agree entirely and this is really what I want to see happen with this project, so it's really reassuring. This is the definitive version of Bloodlines, the fact that the networking and such is making it in is simply the icing on the cake.

I like what people have said about opening up previously unrestricted areas too, again, Unity allows that and it just makes traversing the world that much more fun.

There's a lot of interest for this project from people outside of the usual circles, I've linked and talking about the project elsewhere and people get really excited when I mention it's on Unity as well as they know that just opens up the doors for players to make a lot more relevant content as well.

Loving the work so far.

Offline atrblizzard

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2014, 11:46:24 PM »
Apparently not everyone seems to share the same thoughts, I've encountered several group of fans who would rather see it on Source because it looked "better", more moddable and so on. Others say Unity is a joke engine, the graphics look crisp and not alive, and that it should be ported to Unreal Engine 4, and so on, without ever thinking the amount of work that has to be put to get it done, which is exactly what was not happening with Source. I will be blunt here, working with an old engine as Source is something I was aware from the beginning, that it's not going to end well or at all. At the time Unity was growing, it still wasn't as powerful as it is now. No sane developer would want to put 7-8 years on finishing a mod or any other Source game that usually takes that long (I kid you not, look at most commercial non-Valve Source games), mainly because of the pipeline and painful tools to get the basic job done, where as Unity doesn't have any of these limitations.

As soon as someone hears Unity, they start to bad mouth it because of the image most indie games give. Sure, Unity has its flaws but it's definitely not a weak engine. It just allows us to get our job done the way we want it, while offering as many possibilities as possible. Out of box Linux and Mac support, integrated editor to create mostly anything that needs modding support, which is all allowed thanks to Unity's framework and .NET binding.

But I'm also excited to hear the huge support the project got since the Unity switch, and we were never prouder than we are now of the possibilities we can offer within the engine. Our goal is to bring the best, and it so happens that Unity is the best choice for that. We want an engine that is capable of running on mid-end computers, even low-end if possible. These are not really possible with UE4 or CryEngine, which would already kill a huge part of the community. What's the point on releasing a game that would work for a part of people. Or even without such a powerful editor at this point. But yes, the sky is pretty much the limit for Project Vaulderie and Unity, it's powerful, it's fast and very open. I do mean the pipeline here is open.

Thank you for the kind words and support, knowing that we made the right choice and are able to do much more just thrills us even more!

Offline dbs

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 11:59:39 AM »
The irony of the 'bad press' around Unity is that it usually comes from a group of people that have never developed a game and/or used an engine before. They are basing their criticism on the end product and not the toolset itself, which in the case of Unity is just beyond silly as it's very broad and can produce things across a broad spectrum. I have never heard someone actively involved in gamedev pan Unity as anyone that actually works in the field is aware of how your engine is just that, an engine. Pay them no mind.

Stick with it. For what you guys are looking to achieve personally would agree it's the best and most feasible option.

Looking forward to future updates from both of you.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 07:38:02 PM »
The irony of the 'bad press' around Unity is that it usually comes from a group of people that have never developed a game and/or used an engine before.

I think another problem is that there are no big AAA FPS or RPGs around using Unity. At least I know none. Deus Ex: The Fall was the first Unity game I actually played on a PC and while the facial animations were horrible, the levels itself were looking great!

Offline atrblizzard

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2014, 03:05:27 PM »
The irony of the 'bad press' around Unity is that it usually comes from a group of people that have never developed a game and/or used an engine before. They are basing their criticism on the end product and not the toolset itself, which in the case of Unity is just beyond silly as it's very broad and can produce things across a broad spectrum. I have never heard someone actively involved in gamedev pan Unity as anyone that actually works in the field is aware of how your engine is just that, an engine. Pay them no mind.

Stick with it. For what you guys are looking to achieve personally would agree it's the best and most feasible option.

Looking forward to future updates from both of you.

Indeed, people compare the engines from the results they produce, without taking into account the quality of the game/assets themselves. Unity always focused more on the scripting level, without the need to even exit the editor in order to compile.

There are a lot of these small details that Unity does really well, and it may suffer from some features that are not included and which are pretty basic needs, but they're working on that, features like uNet, uGUI and IL2CPP. I'm pretty excited for what Unity 5 will have to offer and I can safely say, competition is healthy to keep both products to improve and compete with each other.

I think another problem is that there are no big AAA FPS or RPGs around using Unity. At least I know none. Deus Ex: The Fall was the first Unity game I actually played on a PC and while the facial animations were horrible, the levels itself were looking great!

Deus Ex: The Fall isn't really a great example for this because the PC port wasn't remade at all besides from various PC input features. Dreamfall Chapters is a better example of a great city environment.

In the end, art is art. If you import the same models and textures into both Unity and Unreal, they will look the same. The only difference would be the shaders. If you were to use the same shaders in both engines, then they'd be identical. The only real problem Unity has is that there hasn't been many showcase from good artists that can showcase the true power of Unity's look. But then again, the true power for it lays within its scripting.
I personally would stay away from this kind of look at all cost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjTQwZRUfb8

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2014, 05:52:49 PM »
I haven't played Deus Ex: The Fall yet, but I have played Human Revolution, and I don't remember being impressed by the facial animations in that game. (Even in the cinematics, they were slow and blunt-looking.) The attention to detail and appropriateness of the expressions were loads better in Bloodlines.

Will the Unity engine support the creation and addition of new Disciplines? 'Cause if we can add new Disciplines, we can add Vicissitude, and if we can modify facial characteristics... maybe we can do an in-game version of Malleable Visage or Fleshcrafting in real-time conversations.
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Offline Radical21

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2014, 08:19:20 PM »
Rick its not so much a matter of what engine , its more of a matter of what facial animation system is in use: If the base mesh of the face is tied to a detailed Facial Rig(where the rig is the same for nearly all characters) this might be possible, otherwise I see these small details creating alot more work for the team.

Another possibility is that all characters use the same Rig at different parameters to assume different appearances and allow for shape-changing , For example of this :Blendercookie team made the 'Flex Rig' that have various Blendshape targets and triggered geometry, allow it to shape change into a very large variety of characters. I don't know if anyone ever tried to setup something like that for Real time applications though, ESO's multiplayer rigs were the closest I've seen to this (EVE too although their rigs are not really online so far).
Either way you cant have characters looking as Cartoony as the flex Rig so it would be allot of work remaking it all to work that way

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2014, 10:17:07 PM »
The attention to detail and appropriateness of the expressions were loads better in Bloodlines.

I agree to that! Nothing has ever come close except for HL2 of course and maybe RAGE. And the face in the Dreamfall video didn't look as good as ten years old Bloodlines either. This has to look fine for Bloodlines single player to work!

Offline atrblizzard

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2014, 05:06:40 PM »
Rick its not so much a matter of what engine , its more of a matter of what facial animation system is in use: If the base mesh of the face is tied to a detailed Facial Rig(where the rig is the same for nearly all characters) this might be possible, otherwise I see these small details creating alot more work for the team.

Another possibility is that all characters use the same Rig at different parameters to assume different appearances and allow for shape-changing , For example of this :Blendercookie team made the 'Flex Rig' that have various Blendshape targets and triggered geometry, allow it to shape change into a very large variety of characters. I don't know if anyone ever tried to setup something like that for Real time applications though, ESO's multiplayer rigs were the closest I've seen to this (EVE too although their rigs are not really online so far).
Either way you cant have characters looking as Cartoony as the flex Rig so it would be allot of work remaking it all to work that way

Usually blend shapes use less CPU/GPU, while bones use less memory. The issue with morph targets is that it requires the exact vertices to work with, else it'll give you bad results. While with facial rigs like in most Unreal Engine games, you can get all bones to be skinned again if any geometry gets edited. Problem is, both have set backs, while bone driven facial animations can be reskinned easily after modifying its base, they don't look as natural as morph targets would. Not to mention if you use models of different proportions, they wouldn't work as well with the same rig, as in with morph targets, it all bound to getting the right shapekeys orders.

I agree to that! Nothing has ever come close except for HL2 of course and maybe RAGE. And the face in the Dreamfall video didn't look as good as ten years old Bloodlines either. This has to look fine for Bloodlines single player to work!

The reason for that is due to Source using FACS expressions along with flex shapekeys. FACS stands for Facial Action Coding System, in which the basic idea is that each phoneme or expression can be used together to create proper facial expression. In Source they use a default of 60 facial expressions, varying from mood to phoneme presets, which together create the full facial animation.
While other engines go with actual face rigs, bone driven facial animations, Source uses morph targets and presets to achieve this. We can get the same results in Unity with blend shapes. Once the blend shapes are in order, it's just a matter of creating the same presets and use them for any dialog, similar to what Faceposer does. Source has numerous limitations to these flexes, but in the end it all goes down to the artist on how these are set up and used.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2014, 07:51:09 PM »


Usually blend shapes use less CPU/GPU, while bones use less memory. The issue with morph targets is that it requires the exact vertices to work with, else it'll give you bad results. While with facial rigs like in most Unreal Engine games, you can get all bones to be skinned again if any geometry gets edited. Problem is, both have set backs, while bone driven facial animations can be reskinned easily after modifying its base, they don't look as natural as morph targets would. Not to mention if you use models of different proportions, they wouldn't work as well with the same rig, as in with morph targets, it all bound to getting the right shapekeys orders.

like you said CPU power is not really the issue, the issue is having to transmit the parameter data in realtime which can get costly in over 50 concurrent players or so.
having exact  vertices can be overcomed if most characters are sculpted and then retopolgized using a shrink-wrap method(since most humanoid faces have the same geostructure) so same retopologized vertecies are common for all but yeah it would look funny in meshes with totally different topology.



Offline Wesp5

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2014, 08:26:51 PM »
While other engines go with actual face rigs, bone driven facial animations, Source uses morph targets and presets to achieve this. We can get the same results in Unity with blend shapes. Once the blend shapes are in order, it's just a matter of creating the same presets and use them for any dialog, similar to what Faceposer does.

I hardly understood some of the technial mumbo jumbo, but this sounds fine. Bloodlines needs good facial animations on any engine it is running on, it's one of the main points of the game together with the great voice-overs. Still I wonder why many more modern games seem not to care at all, like most of the Unreal engine games...

Offline Nosferatu Numbers Station

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2014, 08:40:12 PM »
I hardly understood some of the technial mumbo jumbo, but this sounds fine. Bloodlines needs good facial animations on any engine it is running on, it's one of the main points of the game together with the great voice-overs. Still I wonder why many more modern games seem not to care at all, like most of the Unreal engine games...

Time and budgets of course, not to mention the grating feeling of tedium.  Most games today are made with one purpose: to sell as a product.  Especially if said product was based off a movie or a sequel to a game that has passed it's trilogy stage.

Plus not all developers can put their heart into the games they make, since not all of the games they make are ones they are interested in.  So money replaces the metaphorical empty hole in their hearts.
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Offline Darkfury

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2014, 09:27:38 PM »


"Plus not all developers can put their heart into the games they make, since not all of the games they make are ones they are interested in.  So money replaces the metaphorical empty hole in their hearts."

True as hell.
That is why you can sometimes enjoy masterpieces.
WoD PnP and later Bloodlines had it. This missing part which everyone wants.
But i suppose it depends on time as well. there is not much of game like this nowadays.
 

Offline Seraph

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Re: Album: Project Vaulderie
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2014, 02:32:00 PM »
Looks great guys  :vampsmile:

been giving out the word to all my friends in ITT and other mmo's i've been playing,

keep up the great work and if you ever need any help just message me and i'll do what i can!
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