collapse

Author Topic: Politics and philosophy  (Read 1522 times)

Online Raving_Neonate

  • Rave.Period.
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Raving somewhere....
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2019, 07:43:11 PM »
I don't have any problems with Christianity, since most of its fundamental moral principles resonate with me such as compassion, virtue and sacrifice.

The problem I do have with it though, is its focusing on the enforcement of "guilt" through the primordial sin mechanic and the insistence on the concept of free will. The latter does not exist (it has been proven that your decision regarding various things had been already made for you, either during your time of birth or just a few seconds before you move the bottle to the right) and no matter what anyone says, there are always predeterminers that will make the choice for you whether you like it or not.

The primordial sin is the most excellent tool for control that I have ever seen, but the most frightening if you look into it deeper aspect of it is the actual length of hate: why would the creator punish his own creations for the acts of his own faulty creation, treating the humans as mere collateral damage in the war between heaven and hell. The more I looked into it, the more disturbing it got in my eyes, forcing me to question a lot I believed in.

As a creator myself, I had been appalled at the decision that befell Adam and Eve: I know what disappointment feels like, but to force billions to suffer just for the transgression of the few is dreadful. I don't know why, but it forces me to make a parallel with the words of Stalin "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic."... somehow this frightens me if it really is true.
Me: "I love lollipops!"
WoD ST: "We don't allow lollipops, because we are too dark!"

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2019, 11:35:08 AM »
The problem I do have with it though, is its focusing on the enforcement of "guilt" through the primordial sin mechanic and the insistence on the concept of free will. The latter does not exist (it has been proven that your decision regarding various things had been already made for you, either during your time of birth or just a few seconds before you move the bottle to the right) and no matter what anyone says, there are always predeterminers that will make the choice for you whether you like it or not.
Sure, this faux free will self-contradiction is the one (just one) of consequences of the fundamental Chrhistianity flaw. Not the flaw itself, though, it's much, much deeper. If your decisions were already made for you, it means that you're free to commit any atrocity, you're going to be forgiven by your all-loving creator in the end if you really believe.
This means it not rejects, but violates (corrupts in a word) the most important human principles, the logic and the cause-effect. In Christianity, cause-effect both exists and does not. In means it encourages people to act like stereotypical schizoprenics (self-contradiction as the modus operandi!), to put it short. It's of no coincedence it's so popular among the certain contingent of madhouses, I mean, murderous and pointlessly violent. Or, ironically, treacherous people with a chronic backstabbing disorder (c), despite betrayal being the worst one can do in Christianity. Judas is, in a way, the Christ of betrayers who absolved their sins like Christ absolved everyone, for the reason that his actions and willing eternal damnation (because of the suicide) were absolutely neccessary for the plan to succeed. The most devoted JC fan indeed.

These moral principles matter not if their philosophical basis, and your logic along with it is corrupted (I guess, purposefully) anyway, quite the contrary, it invites you to violate them, everyting is cool as long as you have them itselves. For example, free to kill, and damn, even betray as long as you truly feel remorse for such acts.
And please note, Compassion is a double-edged sword, it a necessary basis for sadism as well. Indeed, being a real sadist absolutely requires a developed sense of compassion, otherwise one won't get a kick out of someone's else suffering. Without a strong ethical spine to back it up, cultivation of compassion leads to active sadism or passive forms of it, savoring of misery. In the least malevolent form, empty acts of compassion without an actual intent to help people for real, i.e. using one's compassion as a drug.

Which is one of the reasons it has so great a potential to turn any person who's conflict-prone (who isn't?), treacherous or plain unstable (or not entirely stable, who is?) into a walking ticking bomb, and, mind you, a contagious one, by cultivating the importance of undeserved misery both yours and everyone else by original sin (sadism-masochism), irrational sense of shame of guilt (for the acts you're responsive AND not responsive for, exactly like a creator), also illogical, hypocritical and self-contradicting behavior. To put it differently, amplifies, compounds and brings to the surface any human imperfectness in a vicious cycle. Seems like a perfect bioweapon of mind-destruction to me.

I'm dazzled that someone who did not fail to see this contradiction at the some does not have any problem with it. It seems so... Christian to me.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 02:24:06 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2019, 05:55:48 AM »
To add on gender topic, in newfound DPR (Donetsk People's Republic) there is no military draft for women, still, they aren't only allowed, but encouraged to join military. Those who do, tend to be quite good in this job.
Guess they aren't in the situation that calls for stereotypes and prejudices. By the way, there's no actual military conflict between Ukraine and DPR (and it never was a full-blown one to begin with), both sides are deliberately dragging out the theatrics by unofficial aggreement, Ukrainian goverment as an excuse to suck everyone's money by inflation for embezzling, pardon, military purposes, DPR in order to retain their financial backing from Russia.
Even more ridiculous that economical relations aren't only preserved, they're in fact, improved. There's more wares from now DPR regions on Ukrainian wholesale marketpaces than ever in Ukrainian history, at usual, nominally from neighbour regions, sometimes blatantly from Donetsk. Although, the same cannot be said about today Crimea, it's economicaly divorced from Ukraine. Even more ridiculous that the bulk of Ukrainians still did not get it.
I think it explains why I'm not particularly fond of this nation. The people as blind, deaf and braindead aren't fit for anything but slaves and pawns. Well, technically, "my" nation, but I'm not fond of any other either, not even of humanity itself, to say the least.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 01:16:35 PM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2019, 12:00:05 PM »
Perhaps I will be judged for this, but us Slavs always had and will have a higher propensity for inner quarrels, divisions and schism on every possible scale and by every conceivable category - as if we never moved on from the ancient tribal mindset.

This is such a strange statement. History does not support it in any shape or form, unless your historical time frame is the last 40 years. On the contrary, Slavic people had far less violence between them when compared with the bloody history of Western Europeans. Hell, Western Europeans removed entire civilizations from existence in the Americas. Balkan 90s wars and current war in Ukraine is a picnic in the park when compared to Thirty Years' War.

Quote
That is why the Balkans are the way they are: chaotic and divided, both by domestic forces and foreign alike, both determined to persist in this chaos that ruins hundreds of lives on the daily basis.

Balkans are that way because of its geography and the disastrous legacy of Ottoman imperialism. Serbian imperialism is a problem since the Turks left, but I do not wish to taint the forums with our historical and current relations.


Deicide

Even if we Slavic people never converted to Christianity, that itself would neither help or hinder any violence between us. That is a another strange sentiment.


Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2019, 01:42:11 PM »
Used infighting in a broad sense, not prone to in-violence indeed, still they were anything but collectivistic. Individualistic and highly independent I would say. Even these rare princes who managed to more or less unite the nation, did so by gaining popularity and respect in a struggle against external enemies or otherwise showcasing their effectiveness and convincing others to join their lead, not much by force.

As for Christianity, if these points I've brought aren't any convincing, I'm not gonna play agent Mulder here. You aren't convinced, and that is that. Myself convinced that if the religion encourages its follower to be a voyeur of misery and utter destruction, the lack of mentioned would have helped. Not determinally, maybe. Not on the scale of nation, but individual, living standards would'be been higher. After all, a successful nation means exactly nothing without a successful individual. You won, you're moron (c). Not about you, of course.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 08:19:01 PM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2019, 05:34:49 PM »
Christianity and Islam have erased tens of thousands of other religions from existence. They are breaching into India, East and South East Asia, the last bastions of non-Abrahamic faiths. What does that tell you, Deicide? Then again I see religions as living and breathing organisms, fighting over territory.

Christianity and Islam, the children of Abraham have conquered the world.

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2019, 06:05:49 PM »
This is a fine illustration of Christianity's contagious and cancerous nature. It not only feeds on followers' misery, but thrives on the very stuff thrown at it. It's useless to forbid it, moreso, it's a recipe for disaster, it exactly what they want, since nothing is cooler for them than martyrdom, the more it oppressed, the stronger it becomes. Bulgakov told pretty much everything about this certain peculiarity in M&M sub-novel about Yeshua in the most upfront fashion.
He deserves an extra respect for explaining the parasitic its nature and the main struggle method so simply even average Jane or Joe could easily get it.

To sum it up, the best method to deal with Christianity: it feeds off darkside. Never use anything darkside against a Christian. Never ever attack or critique them. Be extremely careful with public critique even before non-Christian audience, never do that if it doesn't have a potential to understand. Don't take them seriously, and, the most importantly, use their own weapon again them, show them some Christian compassion no matter the situation, even if they attack you. Parlicularly if they do. To put it differently, an advice from a renegade Sith Lord, against Christians, use light side only.
Such an irony, the religion of light that fueled by darkside.

Islam has very little in common with Christianity, sure, they borrowed a part of its mythology and characters, but the philosophical basis is completely done from scratch and adopted material was repurposed. I would say, it's the least Abrahamic from Abrahamic religions, it's fairly simple and upfront Order worship at the core so unlike others. If not the plagiarism, it won't even qualify as Abrahamic. Pretty much like Judaism has very little to do with Greek polytheism, despite Azrael being a rebranded Greek goth dude Hades and so on. I would treat Islam as a whole new religion with familiar names in order to ease the conversion from Christianity.
In Islam, if you live by Quaran (a set of fairly unambiguous rules), you will be granted heaven, it's that simple.
It's aggressive indeed, very openly so and completely lack the aforementioned Christian peculiarity. It's a sword against a bioweapon.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 08:01:10 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2019, 11:46:50 PM »
Deicide, so what is your faith?

Sublime emptiness?

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2019, 07:59:26 AM »
The concept of faith is alien to me, not to say I consider its very existence redunant. That's quite a stretch, but you could approximate it by saying that I believe in what I'm utterly convinced in. Make no mistake, conviction and faith are different matters, but, I guess, one could pass for another for certain purposes.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 08:22:18 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2019, 06:49:56 PM »
That's quite a stretch, but you could approximate it by saying that I believe in what I'm utterly convinced in.

In what are you utterly convinced?

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2019, 12:10:03 PM »
To revive this thread a bit, I was recently forwarded this which I found quite interesting. It is about Mueller investigation into the possible Trump-Putin collusion. I will quote Glenn Greenwald on this Mueller business. I would really love to hear the opinions of our American users on this.

"The Mueller investigation is complete and this is a simple fact that will never go away: not one single American was charged, indicted or convicted for conspiring with Russia to influence the 2016 election - not even a low-level volunteer. The number is zero. Compare what cable hosts (let's leave them unnamed) & Democratic operatives spent two years claiming this would lead to - the imprisonment of Don, Jr., Jared, even Trump on conspiracy-with-Russia charges - to what it actually produced. A huge media reckoning is owed. Don't even try to pretend the point of the Mueller investigation from the start wasn't to obtain prosecutions of Americans guilty of conspiring with Russia to influence the outcome of the election or that Putin controlled Trump through blackmail. Nobody will believe your denials. Are we now ready to rid ourselves of the thrilling espionage fantasy that Trump is controlled by Putin and the Kremlin using blackmail? There's no way Robert Mueller would have gone 18 months without telling anyone about this if it were true, right? How could that be justified? Perhaps now we can focus on the actually consequential actions the Trump administration is taking and finally move past the deranged conspiracy theories that have drowned US discourse for 2+ years. A side benefit will be not ratcheting up tension between 2 nuclear-armed powers. Giving up these exciting conspiracy theories about international blackmail & convening panels to decipher all the genius hidden maneuvers of Mueller will be bad for cable ratings, book sales & the Patreon accounts of online charlatans. But it'll be very healthy in all other ways.

The desperate attempts to salvage something from this debacle by the Mueller dead-enders are just sad. Yes, the public hasn't read the Mueller report. But we *know* he ended his investigation without indicting a single American for conspiring with Russia to influence the election. Trump, Jr. testified for hours and hours before Congress, including about the Trump Tower meeting. If he lied there, or to Mueller, why didn't Mueller indict him for perjury, lying to Congress or obstruction? Same questions for Kushner. Stop embarrassing yourselves. If Mueller found evidence that Putin controls Trump & forces him to act against US interests & in favor of Russia - not just with a pee-pee tape but with financial blackmail - what could possibly justify keeping that a secret through the end of the investigation? It's ludicrous. US discourse has been drowned for 2+ years with conspiratorial, unhinged, but highly inflammatory and unhinged idiocy - playing games with two nuclear-armed powers because of anger over the 2016 election. It's time to stop. Mueller ended his work. We see the public indictments."



Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2019, 01:04:24 PM »
Bulgakov told pretty much everything about this certain peculiarity in M&M sub-novel about Yeshua in the most upfront fashion.
In the case anyone will be interested, I should also clarify on this, as on religion as a whole. Bulgakov did not portray Yeshua in a negative way: quite the contrary, as a pacifist, a dreamer, who had nothing with what was attributed to him, and the most definitely did not preach anything. Unfortunately, he had happened in the wrong time in the wrong place becaming thus the symbol of Christianity as we know it.

Every religion has something positive, but also a potential for abuse and boils down to the lowest common denominator in the worst case. Buddhism emphasises cause-effect, but it's often being interpreted as non-action and conflict avoidance, for Christianity it's care for others, but an excuse (all-forgiveness) for any deed on the other side, for Islam - upfrontness and order, alternatively, an excuse for violence against another group (interpretation of infidels).

Some are broken by design more than others (Christianity, I did not even scratch its surface, but this does not matter in this case). As I said, all of this does not matter at all as long as all of them are broken. Like, today Islamic Jihad is yesterday Christian Conquista. Nothing was changed, nothing will ever change. Any ill-intentioned group will readily use their religion as an excuse, no matter which. Alternative interpretations would be labelled as heresy, so it's quite pointless excercise to ask followers around about a correct one.

Since the worst case determines system's reliability, any religion is a horrible idea for cementing the system, i.e. the society.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 02:34:50 PM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Highwayman667

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2019, 02:57:01 AM »
In Islam, if you live by Quaran (a set of fairly unambiguous rules), you will be granted heaven, it's that simple. It's aggressive indeed, very openly so and completely lack the aforementioned Christian peculiarity. It's a sword against a bioweapon.

I'm not sure if you're making this argument, but whenever people want to say "Islam is worse", they always do so in reference to contexts where mechanisms that separate government and religion aren't very clear. Christianity has insane beliefs that are just as dangerous as the ones found in Islam, but you'll never see a christian terrorist group in the US with influence and numbers because the government has the ability to crack down and disable such groups.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2019, 04:24:19 AM »
In Islam, if you live by Quaran (a set of fairly unambiguous rules), you will be granted heaven, it's that simple. It's aggressive indeed, very openly so and completely lack the aforementioned Christian peculiarity. It's a sword against a bioweapon.

I'm not sure if you're making this argument, but whenever people want to say "Islam is worse", they always do so in reference to contexts where mechanisms that separate government and religion aren't very clear. Christianity has insane beliefs that are just as dangerous as the ones found in Islam, but you'll never see a christian terrorist group in the US with influence and numbers because the government has the ability to crack down and disable such groups.

Every abrahamic-religion can be misinterpreted and twisted towards a terrorist agenda - the big proponent towards that is ironically the need of religions to scare their followers into assuming a controlled lifestyle as a sign of virtue , to separate sinners from saints- it is inevitable that someone eventually interpret things towards their own agenda. In my opinion that is why religious organisations were formed to begin with.

Take for example a chain of posts I've seen yesterday on a Facebook group: Where a guy tried to claim artists were channelling dark energy onto the world using their pagan-looking artwork and that is the cause of all shitstorm we see in the media. Prime WoD writing material, if that guy wasn't so insanely serious about it..   it doesn't matter what specific religion he was following, he would still have that mindset which is likely one step away from going out there and killing artists.

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Politics and philosophy
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2019, 05:52:53 AM »
...but you'll never see a christian terrorist group in the US with influence and numbers because the government has the ability to crack down and disable such groups.
Many of them could easily rival Islamic groups by degree of conviction, like an infamous Heaven's Gate (R.I.P.). Luckily, they were one of the few trve sects, so they did not use followers' funds in any way, even forbade the deduction of property in their favor. Funded themselves by working together in the professional web design area. Not to say, never commited any twisted stuff usually associated with a sect.

Every abrahamic-religion can be misinterpreted and twisted towards a terrorist agenda
I would generalize - every organized religion, not necessary abrahamic.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 05:55:08 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)