If this is what I think it is...

[Gossamer]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-2-taking-a-firm-political-progressive-stance-standing-for-lgbt-rights-mental-illness-representation.106919/

[Mond_Blutgut]

I guess youtube.com/watch?v=RNJ9pet2scY&t=42.

[DarkProphet]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-2-taking-a-firm-political-progressive-stance-standing-for-lgbt-rights-mental-illness-representation.106919/

So...they want me to pay them to tell me that I'm a terrible person because I don't have a Caitlyn Jenner shrine in my home? D':

[Gossamer]

Cool song bro

[Signothorn]

I moved this thread to Off Topic. I made the following post yesterday, which explains how we're handling any political issues relating to the game that have been brought up be a few people. It was in page 11 of the thread, so I don't hold it against anyone for not reading it.

https://forums.planetvampire.com/index.php?topic=7870.msg143921#msg143921

"We'll do our best to keep U.S. politics as it relates to Bloodlines 2 at a minimum at PV in the Bloodlines Games General Discussion area. Everyone who has been around here for a while knows we promote everyone openly expressing themselves regardless of your background or orientation. I don't want a toxic political conversation that re-ashes old stuff and polarizes people. The narrative of the topic is about the game, not political leanings towards WW. Use the Off Topic area for political stuff. I also didn't read in the Steam forums where people specifically said they were Trump supporters either. Let's not open that bag or worms and just stay on topic about the game in a non-toxic and non-political way please. I'm accustomed to the forum basically taking care of moderating itself, but there may be some new visitors now the game is announced that may not get our community. If needed, I'll bring aboard some more moderators but we'll see how things play out."

I don't want our community to become the Steam forums. Keep the political discussions in Off Topic for now please. Lastly, please consider how your posts reflect on our community. We are a rather small community these days, but we have members worldwide who may or may not read your humor in the way you intended, and it comes back at me and our community as a whole. It would be very easy for someone to point at the Caitlyn Jenner comment and say we're allowing transphobia, and mobs of people on both sides would come to people and turn PV into a war zone. Chill with that lingo immediately. We don't need political drama of any kind pointed at PV, we aren't about that. Please govern yourselves so we don't have to step in and govern you. Thanks.

[Candy Narwhal]

I think all of what's been said sounds cool - but calling the choice of clan "an informed decision" is weird to me, like they're redressing a game mechanic to seem progressive. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but I could very well be overinterpreting this...

People who worry about the game being political are kind of missing the point of Vampire, I think, besides.

Bloodlines itself was progressive enough for its time, in my opinion - aside from making every non-white character a racial stereotype, and the "being mentally ill is so quirky" vibe of the Malkavian PC, which is an attitude that none of the other Malkavians in the game reflect, anyway.

It was at least inclusive, and made these characters more than just gags by nature of their (sub)plot involvement and the fantastic dialogue. You interacted with them, which gave them depth, and the PC typically didn't treat anything as an outright joke.

I'm sure Bloodlines 2 is going to be as progressive as the original was by simple inclusion of these characters and themes, but by today's standards, meaning they'll be a bit less caricatured. There's nothing really scary about that.

[Signothorn]

People who worry about the game being political are kind of missing the point of Vampire, I think, besides.

Correct, and let me try to be as clear as possible. There is plenty of politics in the Wod, it's a natural part of your interactions with others, and sculpts the rules you live by within. My concern is mostly about the forum becoming a toxic shitshow as new people flow in who don't take the time to read about the site's history ect. I can't expect that. I just want people to have civil discourse. I don't want to get into people's heads and try to determine what beliefs they hold either, it's not our place. People should choose how and to what intensity they decide to express themselves, as it sets the standard for the new people coming to our forums. I called out a specific example in this thread of what I meant, and I know the person has been around a while and won't likely have a problem again. What you see in the Steam forums is the normal "pick a side" team politics where people try to convince others by using submission tactics. We don't want that type of person here, let them do that elsewhere. If they see it happening here, they see an invitation. I've been around long enough and made enough mistakes to know better than to let that kind of trouble start. It will be a big enough problem dealing with all the new passionate modders coming here for Bloodlines 2, arguing and fighting over everything you can imagine. Those who have been around since the early days of PlanetVampire know what I'm talking about. 

Unless we see another issue, I plan to shut up about it now and let the convo continue. If there are further questions, feel free to PM me.

[Barabbah]

Gamergaters nuts vs SJW, a drama play in 5 movements:
- developers said you can choose to be not only as a straight white but also other genders and identification and in any case totally optional
- gamergaters nuts outcry SJW agenda conspiracies
- whoever points them they are hypocrites since this is only an extra option gets heavily offended
- moderators bans them for their aggressive attitude and their threads, they whine at the censorship against their truth
- the world slips a small step once again into idiocracy

[Candy Narwhal]

Correct, and let me try to be as clear as possible. [...]

Sure! I was making a general statement, it wasn't in response to your post. I can get a little bit passionate sometimes, but so, do let me know if I ever step out of line.

[Raving_Neonate]

I generally stay out of popular discussions such as this since I fail to share many of the widely accepted stances, but the one thing I know for certain is that when a person dies, regardless of color, HE/SHE/IT IS PALE. No sjw or rightist opinions here, pure fact and the former wanting to capitalize on inclusiveness into a simple biological or anthropological fact comes off as infantile and weak-minded condescending, while the latter's insistence on it comes off as unnecessarily boisterous ("I don't need to bare my fangs to feel good" kind). To me it is an universal solution: everyone is pale, maybe add a tinge here or there.

Politics of the Vampire is far more interested into serious subjects of power and indoctrination, religion and loss, than gender and other trifles. It would be detrimental to the story to force it: it comes off as small potatoes in comparison.

I fully respect the community standards here on PV, that is why I wrote the post in an neutral stance since I myself fail to see the benefit on going so far left in WoD today. The newest edition is a disappointment for me, but like I said, it is my opinion.

 

[thegooddoctorman]

I think all of what's been said sounds cool - but calling the choice of clan "an informed decision" is weird to me, like they're redressing a game mechanic to seem progressive. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but I could very well be overinterpreting this...

People who worry about the game being political are kind of missing the point of Vampire, I think, besides.

Bloodlines itself was progressive enough for its time, in my opinion - aside from making every non-white character a racial stereotype, and the "being mentally ill is so quirky" vibe of the Malkavian PC, which is an attitude that none of the other Malkavians in the game reflect, anyway.

It was at least inclusive, and made these characters more than just gags by nature of their (sub)plot involvement and the fantastic dialogue. You interacted with them, which gave them depth, and the PC typically didn't treat anything as an outright joke.

I'm sure Bloodlines 2 is going to be as progressive as the original was by simple inclusion of these characters and themes, but by today's standards, meaning they'll be a bit less caricatured. There's nothing really scary about that.

Personally, I'm fine with LGBT themes, racial themes, and class themes, considering they exist as real issues IRL. I just hope that we are not forced to condone or condemn certain political stances, and I also hope that the devs don't push their particular views on the player, whatever they may be. Basically, if what you say is true, then that is absolutely fine. There is a HUGE difference between mere presence and advocacy. And honestly, the stereotypes and the Malkavian PC grated me anyway, so not using those sounds like a plus regardless.

[Barabbah]

Well, I've actually enjoyed the republican jokes on the first one....

[thegooddoctorman]

Well, I've actually enjoyed the republican jokes on the first one....

What about for those of us who see the GOP as too liberal? /s

What does that line change to for Malkavians?

[Candy Narwhal]

Personally, I'm fine with LGBT themes, racial themes, and class themes, considering they exist as real issues IRL. I just hope that we are not forced to condone or condemn certain political stances, and I also hope that the devs don't push their particular views on the player, whatever they may be. Basically, if what you say is true, then that is absolutely fine. There is a HUGE difference between mere presence and advocacy. And honestly, the stereotypes and the Malkavian PC grated me anyway, so not using those sounds like a plus regardless.

I agree - well, in principle at least. It's kind of a slippery slope though, in my opinion, trying to determine what it means, exactly, to push a viewpoint.

For example, if you stumble upon a gay character and none of the dialogue options lets you call them a faggot/dyke, is there an agenda hidden there, or was it just something the developers didn't end up letting you do for whatever other reason?

There would no doubt be people (a lot of people, in my experience) who would take such an instance as having progressive politics forced on them - because, to them, presence is largely equal to advocacy, regardless of context.

At the end of the day, you can't please both the person living under a rock and the person straddled atop their high horse, so however the developers choose to approach any sensitive issue is really their prerogative...

Hell, arguably the best ending in the original Bloodlines (ignoring the Independent ending for the sake of the argument) has you aligning with the Anarchs, who are analogous to the real-life left wing, anyway. There's already a precedent, there, which the critics on STEAM and elsewhere are very conveniently forgetting.

TL;DR: We're probably not gonna see anything from Death Mask Productions in this sequel, because snuff films are decidedly risky territory to explore, as are certain other things.

You know what, though? I'm fine with that - I don't think it's gonna take much away from the game overall if they play a few things safer than maybe they could have.

Gehenna is not upon us because there's a gay and/or black person in a video game for inclusivity's sake, basically.

[thegooddoctorman]

Personally, I'm fine with LGBT themes, racial themes, and class themes, considering they exist as real issues IRL. I just hope that we are not forced to condone or condemn certain political stances, and I also hope that the devs don't push their particular views on the player, whatever they may be. Basically, if what you say is true, then that is absolutely fine. There is a HUGE difference between mere presence and advocacy. And honestly, the stereotypes and the Malkavian PC grated me anyway, so not using those sounds like a plus regardless.

I agree - well, in principle at least. It's kind of a slippery slope though, in my opinion, trying to determine what it means, exactly, to push a viewpoint.

For example, if you stumble upon a gay character and none of the dialogue options lets you call them a faggot/dyke, is there an agenda hidden there, or was it just something the developers didn't end up letting you do for whatever other reason?

There would no doubt be people (a lot of people, in my experience) who would take such an instance as having progressive politics forced on them - because, to them, presence is largely equal to advocacy, regardless of context.

At the end of the day, you can't please both the person living under a rock and the person straddled atop their high horse, so however the developers choose to approach any sensitive issue is really their prerogative...

Hell, arguably the best ending in the original Bloodlines (ignoring the Independent ending for the sake of the argument) has you aligning with the Anarchs, who are analogous to the real-life left wing, anyway. There's already a precedent, there, which the critics on STEAM and elsewhere are very conveniently forgetting.

TL;DR: We're probably not gonna see anything from Death Mask Productions in this sequel, because snuff films are decidedly risky territory to explore, as are certain other things.

You know what, though? I'm fine with that - I don't think it's gonna take much away from the game overall if they play a few things safer than maybe they could have.

Gehenna is not upon us because there's a gay and/or black person in a video game for inclusivity's sake, basically.

Well, Damsel's an outright Commie, but Skelter is a little critical of Damsel for that given his 'Nam Vet background. I've actually had people encourage me to play a Ventrue Anarch with fascist tendencies, given my playstyle.

Regardless, yeah, politics has gotten too polarizing and personal. I blame social media.