collapse

Author Topic: If this is what I think it is...  (Read 2872 times)

Offline Radical21

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2019, 08:05:19 PM »
We did not chose to be human, we did not chose to be born like we are, moreso, we did not chose to be born to begin with.
Sometimes, I get a feeling that someone unborn (like, who I was supposed to be in the first place) tries to talk or act through me. And when it hits, I'm nearly always trying not to hold back that little red-eyed unborn lord (c).
Not that I believe in supernatural, I think it's only one of signs that I'm about to do something that I really want to.

Being born is a given , not a choice ,however it is like that for a reason. the life influences the tapestry , like a cell within a culture.

Offline DarkZephyr

  • Caine's Plaything
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2019, 11:09:38 PM »
Realism can be boring, in my book...
Indeed, so I usually use it in an another sense - a logically cohesive plot without holes and pianos in bushes. Not this time, though.
Still, these games provided a nice break from usual sword-n-sorcery style. Armor that looks like a reasonable armor. My only complain to DA1 was the lack of alternative outfits for a mage. The same is true, or, at least was true at the time.
The same goes for ME/ME2. In ME2, only Miranda's outfit was a blatant fanservice. It backfired, many did not take seriously one of the best-written characters by BioWare, exact;y due to damn catsuit.

And constant butt shots.  lol

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2019, 06:20:38 AM »
They wouldn't be much a problem if not the suit.

Besides the catsuit, the only other moment in ME2 that qualifies is a fanservice joke, in a dialogue between TIM and female Shepard:
> I noticed a few... upgrades. Hope you didn't replace anything really important?

Since I did not notice any significant changes from ME1, the line cracked me up. TIM is a type of character from whom you could expect a control chip implant, not something entirely different.

Writing certainly won't stave off a lynch mob, but still, it can win some support among people who aren't into lynching, should the issue arise. For example, I wouldn't consider even a part of those #gamegators genuniely disappointed gamers should DA2/ME3 writing been as good as DA1.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 06:59:12 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline DarkZephyr

  • Caine's Plaything
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2019, 09:31:21 AM »
They wouldn't be much a problem if not the suit.

Besides the catsuit, the only other moment in ME2 that qualifies is a fanservice joke, in a dialogue between TIM and female Shepard:
> I noticed a few... upgrades. Hope you didn't replace anything really important?

Since I did not notice any significant changes from ME1, the line cracked me up. TIM is a type of character from whom you could expect a control chip implant, not something entirely different.

Writing certainly won't stave off a lynch mob, but still, it can win some support among people who aren't into lynching, should the issue arise. For example, I wouldn't consider even a part of those #gamegators genuniely disappointed gamers should DA2/ME3 writing been as good as DA1.

I think for most people disappointed with ME3 it was the endings.  I know that was my issue when I first played the game in 2012 when it was brand new.  That was probably the most shocking, horrible ending experience I have ever had with any game in my life.  I kept telling myself "I have GOT to be dreaming this" and I didn't mean my Shepard, I meant my real self.  LOL Most people that I know of praise the majority of the rest of the game.  Speaking of fanservice I think the Citadel DLC was major fan service and I loved it.  I always use mods to make the party at the end my actual game end, that combined with the "Happy Ending Mod".  lol  I was more OK with the endings after the Extended Cut DLC but I still prefer the Happy Ending Mod.  In my head canon, that is THE ending, and the fact that the next sequel took place far into the future in another galaxy entirely makes it easy for me to keep it that way as nothing in MEA contradicts my head
canon.

Just to bring the conversation mildly back on topic, I do know that a teeny tiny number of players were annoyed when Kaiden Alenko was revealed to be bisexual.  But it wasn't a very significant number of people.  Their claimed issue with it was taking an "established" straight character and  "suddenly" making him bisexual to "pander" to LGBT people.  Such people seem confused with how bisexuality works.  A) neither previous game ever stated that Kaidan was heterosexual, they simply don't explicitly show it in the final product and B) he was always intended to be bisexual from the start anyway, nearly ALL of his male romance content is present but hidden in the first game's files and there is a mod that easily unlocks it, including a complete set of audio files for a same sex relationship with him.  They "cut" that content (really they just hid it) from the first game (and mentions of Thane being bi from the second game) out of fear of homophobic backlash at the times those games were released.  So what it really is an example of, is an LGBT character being sort of (but not explicitly) "straight washed" to pander to homphobes and I am very glad they made moves to fix that in part 3. 

Interestingly enough, if you install all three parts of the mod that unlocks the Kaidan same sex romance content with each game, all of the sound files are present to make it work in all three games.  There is no odd break in realism where you have to content yourself with silent, captioned dialogue.  The sound files are all there, including in part 3 evidencing a same sex romance with Kaidan from the very first game. Originally I was happy with just starting my Manshep's romance with Kaidan in part 3 but after trying out the mod and having the relationship from the very first game, I find the experience to be much richer.  Even what goes on in part 3 is more interesting with a relationship that was previously established, the dialogue is a little richer and a few other little things are more interesting as well.  Its too bad they ever cut it to pander to homophobes.  Thank goodness for the mods that fix that.

Offline Ghanima_Atreides

  • Libera Me de Ignem
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2019, 10:04:11 AM »


Just to bring the conversation mildly back on topic, I do know that a teeny tiny number of players were annoyed when Kaiden Alenko was revealed to be bisexual.  But it wasn't a very significant number of people.  Their claimed issue with it was taking an "established" straight character and  "suddenly" making him bisexual to "pander" to LGBT people.  Such people seem confused with how bisexuality works.  A) neither previous game ever stated that Kaidan was heterosexual, they simply don't explicitly show it in the final product and B) he was always intended to be bisexual from the start anyway, nearly ALL of his male romance content is present but hidden in the first game's files and there is a mod that easily unlocks it, including a complete set of audio files for a same sex relationship with him.  They "cut" that content (really they just hid it) from the first game (and mentions of Thane being bi from the second game) out of fear of homophobic backlash at the times those games were released.  So what it really is an example of, is an LGBT character being sort of (but not explicitly) "straight washed" to pander to homphobes and I am very glad they made moves to fix that in part 3. 



Bisexuality is often such an iffy thing in games, movies, fiction in general...it's rare to see it portrayed thoughtfully, even rarer to see a good portrayal of a male bisexual character. On the one hand, too often it's introduced as an "edgy" trait for evil (female) characters, or in order to sex up a female character (Bloodlines itself is guilty of this), which isn't done for the benefit of LGBT people, but rather because it's a straight guy fantasy.

On the other hand, there are people who seem to think that bisexual people should date both/more than one gender at all times, and if they do not they are either perceived as straight or gay. This is true of real life as well, speaking from experience.

Coming back to games, there are also some where everyone is bisexual, but not because it's intended to be their identity, but as a 'catch-all' setting to allow people to romance whoever they want without restrictions. In fact, that isn't bisexuality anymore but a "blank state sexuality" for the player to project their own onto. In a way I can see the benefit in this, but personally I prefer it when characters have individual preferences, be they straight or gay or bi. In Fallout New Vegas for example, you couldn't flirt with Arcade as a female and Veronica responded differently to you if you were a guy. Granted, you couldn't really romance anyone there, but they do make their preferences known and the player cannot change them. It makes for more interesting characters, makes them feel more like actual people.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 10:06:02 AM by Ghanima_Atreides »
Strange is the night where black stars rise,
And strange moons circle through the skies,
But stranger still is
Lost Carcosa.

Offline DarkZephyr

  • Caine's Plaything
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2019, 12:36:13 PM »


Just to bring the conversation mildly back on topic, I do know that a teeny tiny number of players were annoyed when Kaiden Alenko was revealed to be bisexual.  But it wasn't a very significant number of people.  Their claimed issue with it was taking an "established" straight character and  "suddenly" making him bisexual to "pander" to LGBT people.  Such people seem confused with how bisexuality works.  A) neither previous game ever stated that Kaidan was heterosexual, they simply don't explicitly show it in the final product and B) he was always intended to be bisexual from the start anyway, nearly ALL of his male romance content is present but hidden in the first game's files and there is a mod that easily unlocks it, including a complete set of audio files for a same sex relationship with him.  They "cut" that content (really they just hid it) from the first game (and mentions of Thane being bi from the second game) out of fear of homophobic backlash at the times those games were released.  So what it really is an example of, is an LGBT character being sort of (but not explicitly) "straight washed" to pander to homphobes and I am very glad they made moves to fix that in part 3. 



Bisexuality is often such an iffy thing in games, movies, fiction in general...it's rare to see it portrayed thoughtfully, even rarer to see a good portrayal of a male bisexual character. On the one hand, too often it's introduced as an "edgy" trait for evil (female) characters, or in order to sex up a female character (Bloodlines itself is guilty of this), which isn't done for the benefit of LGBT people, but rather because it's a straight guy fantasy.

On the other hand, there are people who seem to think that bisexual people should date both/more than one gender at all times, and if they do not they are either perceived as straight or gay. This is true of real life as well, speaking from experience.

Coming back to games, there are also some where everyone is bisexual, but not because it's intended to be their identity, but as a 'catch-all' setting to allow people to romance whoever they want without restrictions. In fact, that isn't bisexuality anymore but a "blank state sexuality" for the player to project their own onto. In a way I can see the benefit in this, but personally I prefer it when characters have individual preferences, be they straight or gay or bi. In Fallout New Vegas for example, you couldn't flirt with Arcade as a female and Veronica responded differently to you if you were a guy. Granted, you couldn't really romance anyone there, but they do make their preferences known and the player cannot change them. It makes for more interesting characters, makes them feel more like actual people.

I agree with most of what you say here, including regarding what you say about bisexuality being used as more of a "blank slate catch all" sexuality.  However, I would much rather see that than no LGBT content whatsoever, particularly with regard to male same sex romance options which used to be slightly harder to find than female ones.  Though it certainly is more interesting when the bisexuality is an actual part of their identity, such as with Zevran in Dragon Age Origins or Iron Bull in Dragon Age Inquisition.  These characters aren't "PC sexual" they are legitimately bisexual and you can find out about that regardless of your character's sex.  Zevran is very open about it and isn't nearly as subtle about it as Iron Bull is, but its definitely there with the Iron Bull as well, such as when he discusses what amounts to the Qunari version of brothels.

But again, as interesting as that is, I would rather have the "PC Sexual" version than nothing at all.  While its more interesting to have it be an integral part of their identity, I think abandoning it all together in favor of heteronormacy rather than make a less interesting bisexual character is an example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater or cutting your nose off to spite your face.   

The above being said, a character not stating "this is just so very integral to my identity, I am ever so bi" doesn't mean that it isn't integral to their identity, it could mean that they don't feel the need to talk about it because to them it doesn't need discussion or justification.  Its just a part of who they are and it doesn't need to be gabbed about, in their eyes.

There are those who don't want PC sexual bisexuals at all, they consider it "lazy" or "cheap" to do that that, but bisexual erasure is a problem in real life, even within the LGBT community and I don't think we need to further that in video games even if the bisexual is perceived as "PC Sexual".   
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 12:46:53 PM by DarkZephyr »

Offline El_Gostro

  • Unposting posting poster unposting postitions
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1278
  • Shifting
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2019, 12:38:21 PM »
But certainly discussed throughout 16 pages of back and forth!!!!!

Offline DarkZephyr

  • Caine's Plaything
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2019, 12:41:38 PM »
But certainly discussed throughout 16 pages of back and forth!!!!!

So far its 6 pages and those of us taking part in this discussion find it interesting or enlightening.  Those who don't find it interesting or enlightening are not required to participate as far as I'm aware. 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 12:45:18 PM by DarkZephyr »

Offline Signothorn

  • God Hates Fangs
  • Administratrix
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 15179
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2019, 03:35:50 PM »
Ashley was also supposed to be romanced by both femshep and broshep, but was cut from ME1. I usually play as femshep because I feel the renegade lines are delivered better, especially "big stupid jellyfish". I understand why they may have cut Ashley's romance with femshep because of Ashley's religious views, but wish it was an option nevertheless.

Offline Ghanima_Atreides

  • Libera Me de Ignem
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2019, 05:37:22 PM »

But again, as interesting as that is, I would rather have the "PC Sexual" version than nothing at all.  While its more interesting to have it be an integral part of their identity, I think abandoning it all together in favor of heteronormacy rather than make a less interesting bisexual character is an example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater or cutting your nose off to spite your face.   

The above being said, a character not stating "this is just so very integral to my identity, I am ever so bi" doesn't mean that it isn't integral to their identity, it could mean that they don't feel the need to talk about it because to them it doesn't need discussion or justification.  Its just a part of who they are and it doesn't need to be gabbed about, in their eyes.

There are those who don't want PC sexual bisexuals at all, they consider it "lazy" or "cheap" to do that that, but bisexual erasure is a problem in real life, even within the LGBT community and I don't think we need to further that in video games even if the bisexual is perceived as "PC Sexual".

To be honest, I find that PC sexual bisexual characters actually contribute to bi erasure, because those characters aren't really perceived as being genuinely bi, they're perceived by each player in turn as being whatever they want them to be. To give an example, SWTOR (Star Wars the Old Republic): originally, all of the characters were straight-romance only, then later on they added PC sexual bi characters and more recently they announced they would update the original characters to be romanceable by both genders as well. Reading people's reactions, I've seen stuff along the lines of: "Ah finally I can make Jaesa a lesbian!" and "Hmm, my male Jedi Knight is going to get quite a shock when he finds out his wife is bi..."  So those people already had their own established vision of those characters and their orientations, or saw this as an opportunity to mold them to better fit their headcanon. In either case, it wasn't bisexuality.

This is the reason why I said I find that bisexuality as a true and meaningful identity is lacking in games, whether the character in question is open about it or more private, because I didn't mean to imply that they should all constantly talk about how bi they are, that's another harmful trope. (I haven't played Dragon Age so I cannot comment on that.)

That being said, I do agree with you that it's better than having no LGBT options at all, and this at least gives people the freedom to roleplay it however they want, which is a good thing. I was just making a point that it takes away from the characters themselves and, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't help portray bisexuality as a legitimate identity.
Strange is the night where black stars rise,
And strange moons circle through the skies,
But stranger still is
Lost Carcosa.

Offline DarkZephyr

  • Caine's Plaything
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2019, 06:02:25 PM »
Ashley was also supposed to be romanced by both femshep and broshep, but was cut from ME1. I usually play as femshep because I feel the renegade lines are delivered better, especially "big stupid jellyfish". I understand why they may have cut Ashley's romance with femshep because of Ashley's religious views, but wish it was an option nevertheless.

Yes and the mod that I mentioned above reactivates that content as well.  If you you ever go back and replay the game, you might want to give it a try: https://www.nexusmods.com/masseffect/mods/80

Its the first in a 3 part series.  There's one for the second and third game as well. 

I wish they would have kept it as well, not entirely sure why they didn't.  Maybe they thought an omnisexual blue alien girl was more acceptable than a bisexual human woman at that time? 

Initially I preferred Jennifer Hale's voice acting overall as well when I first played the first game (although I did prefer Mark Meer's delivery of the "Big Stupid Jellyfish" line) but I think Mark improved in the subsequent games and I came to prefer playing manshep over all. I do love Hale's voice work though and its one of the few franchises I play where I still do play a female character.  She's just an excellent actress. 


But again, as interesting as that is, I would rather have the "PC Sexual" version than nothing at all.  While its more interesting to have it be an integral part of their identity, I think abandoning it all together in favor of heteronormacy rather than make a less interesting bisexual character is an example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater or cutting your nose off to spite your face.   

The above being said, a character not stating "this is just so very integral to my identity, I am ever so bi" doesn't mean that it isn't integral to their identity, it could mean that they don't feel the need to talk about it because to them it doesn't need discussion or justification.  Its just a part of who they are and it doesn't need to be gabbed about, in their eyes.

There are those who don't want PC sexual bisexuals at all, they consider it "lazy" or "cheap" to do that that, but bisexual erasure is a problem in real life, even within the LGBT community and I don't think we need to further that in video games even if the bisexual is perceived as "PC Sexual".

To be honest, I find that PC sexual bisexual characters actually contribute to bi erasure, because those characters aren't really perceived as being genuinely bi, they're perceived by each player in turn as being whatever they want them to be. To give an example, SWTOR (Star Wars the Old Republic): originally, all of the characters were straight-romance only, then later on they added PC sexual bi characters and more recently they announced they would update the original characters to be romanceable by both genders as well. Reading people's reactions, I've seen stuff along the lines of: "Ah finally I can make Jaesa a lesbian!" and "Hmm, my male Jedi Knight is going to get quite a shock when he finds out his wife is bi..."  So those people already had their own established vision of those characters and their orientations, or saw this as an opportunity to mold them to better fit their headcanon. In either case, it wasn't bisexuality.

This is the reason why I said I find that bisexuality as a true and meaningful identity is lacking in games, whether the character in question is open about it or more private, because I didn't mean to imply that they should all constantly talk about how bi they are, that's another harmful trope. (I haven't played Dragon Age so I cannot comment on that.)

That being said, I do agree with you that it's better than having no LGBT options at all, and this at least gives people the freedom to roleplay it however they want, which is a good thing. I was just making a point that it takes away from the characters themselves and, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't help portray bisexuality as a legitimate identity.

I think you and I are mostly on the same page here.  :)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 06:09:38 PM by DarkZephyr »

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2019, 10:38:16 AM »
I think for most people disappointed with ME3 it was the endings.  I know that was my issue when I first played the game in 2012 when it was brand new.  That was probably the most shocking, horrible ending experience I have ever had with any game in my life.  I kept telling myself "I have GOT to be dreaming this" and I didn't mean my Shepard, I meant my real self.  LOL Most people that I know of praise the majority of the rest of the game.  Speaking of fanservice I think the Citadel DLC was major fan service and I loved it.  I always use mods to make the party at the end my actual game end, that combined with the "Happy Ending Mod".  lol  I was more OK with the endings after the Extended Cut DLC but I still prefer the Happy Ending Mod.  In my head canon, that is THE ending, and the fact that the next sequel took place far into the future in another galaxy entirely makes it easy for me to keep it that way as nothing in MEA contradicts my head
canon.
Troll endings are only a tip of the iceberg. The writing went downhill after ME2, the main plot is lazy and full of holes, many characters not behave like themselves, as if an infamous Domi usurped writer's mantle from the actual team. It's totally like today Hollywood movies with a focus on so-called emotional scenes and melodrama, apparently the public so fond of them that does not notice how messy, far-fetched or even blatantly illogical these plots are. Romances has become the main attraction (or distraction?).
To sum it up, the shuffled writers team and disrespect to the audience, the same issues as The Last Jedi (2017).

Luckily enough, I had a chance to try ME3 on a friend's computer before buying, could not tolerate more than, I believe, half-hour of gameplay.

By the way, I also played with female Shepard almost exlusively, due to the superior voice-over. I don't think the male voice actor is to blame, this kind of generic military shooter hero voice was, the most likely, a bright idea by the management. Female Shepard is non-canon, so I guess they had more artistic freedom with her. I suspect they decided to spice up the male voice-over in ME3 as well after female Shepard had gained an unexpected following.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 10:52:45 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Azrael

  • Apathetic Toreador
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2019, 10:33:35 PM »
Without reading too much of what is discussed in this thread, the question is: if someone get's embraced, does it violate their safe space?

I gotta tell ya, Umnir, I don't even want SKIN on my personal space.

- az
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline Sabbat_stalker

  • Neonate
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2019, 12:23:22 AM »
I don't care what or who is included in the game as long as I am allowed to treat them the way I wish and come to my own conclusions about them.

This thread reminds me of a shitty article I attempted to write a couple of months ago and it seems relevant atm and encapsulates my feelings on the matter
http://indiegamer.info/blog/2018/11/18/are-games-political-and-should-they-be/

Offline DarkZephyr

  • Caine's Plaything
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2019, 01:45:09 AM »
I don't care what or who is included in the game as long as I am allowed to treat them the way I wish and come to my own conclusions about them.

This thread reminds me of a shitty article I attempted to write a couple of months ago and it seems relevant atm and encapsulates my feelings on the matter
http://indiegamer.info/blog/2018/11/18/are-games-political-and-should-they-be/

I read through your article and I didn't think it was "shitty".  It came across as fairly reasonable to me.  I have never been a huge fan of Andrew Breitbart but he did do a few bold things that I respect, including his big "Gay old party" from back in 2011, trying to welcome LGBT people into the Republican party in the face of hatred from the so called "Family Values" crowd screeching their disapproval of LGBT presence among conservatives.  He did not approve of that hatred, said that it "offended him" and I can respect that.  I mean he did add a caveat that he wasn't endorsing same sex marriage, but still, it was brave and bold and again, I can respect it.  It was a shame when he passed away.  At any rate, your article wasn't shitty. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 01:47:55 AM by DarkZephyr »