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Author Topic: If this is what I think it is...  (Read 2425 times)

Offline deicide

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2019, 05:35:21 AM »
And honestly, the stereotypes and the Malkavian PC grated me anyway, so not using those sounds like a plus regardless.
Myself consider psychiatry and psychology nothing but pseudo-disciplines and a huge rack, for this very reason found a Malkavian PC who is a walking parody on both plus common stereotypes so funny. This stuff is overused, still in this particular case it was done genuinely nice. Nothing beats a well-twisted stereotype.

As for another question, I'm ok with gay characters in videogames as long as it isn't enforced or somehow shoved in my face (like an infamous Anders from DA2), but I'm strongly against LGBT characters, for the reason that LGBT (as opposed to gay or anything else) means exactly that - a walking agenda.
On the other hand, I certainly would not be amused should someone prevent me from playing a homophobic character, or every WT goon would be, uh, progressive. That fvcking trend of twisting words into LGBT terms, which I detest so greatly. Due to them, you cannot say "progressive" without explaining that you don't mean shit these days. Wouldn't they mind to keep their moonspeak to themselves?
Mira from Bloodlines won't be Mira shouldn't she call a she-PC a dyke at her advances.

Speaking of snowflakes, Candy Narwhal, you're not the only oddball here, I don't identify myself below the belt (with my gender, in other words), nor with my name, legal or otherwise, nor with usual bunch of stuff the most of people identify themselves with. So, there's no flag for me, and if I were to take my real form, I would have to somehow turn myself into a black hole that consumes what's called reality itself.

By the way, I don't even get why the transgender scene is a part of LGBT. Since biological gender is so malleable, being unhappy with it is no bigger deal than being unhappy with one's nose shape or a desire to do a face lift, to me.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 06:43:56 AM by deicide »
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Online Candy Narwhal

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2019, 07:00:49 AM »
As for another question, I'm ok with gay characters in videogames as long as it isn't enforced or somehow shoved in my face (like an infamous Anders from DA2), but I'm strongly against LGBT characters, for the reason that LGBT (as opposed to gay or anything else) means exactly that - a walking agenda.

Speaking of snowflakes, Candy Narwhal, you're not the only oddball here, I don't identify myself below the belt (with my gender, in other words), nor with my name, legal or otherwise, nor with usual bunch of stuff the most of people identify themselves with. So, there's no flag for me, and if I were to take my real form, I would have to somehow turn myself into a black hole that consumes what's called reality itself.

Do you consider yourself a walking agenda, then, since gender non-conformity as a concept generally falls under the umbrella of LGBT identities?

I'm not sure why you would conflate LGBT identity with LGBT politics to begin with - isn't it just simpler to say that you don't identify with the movement?

This is kind of exactly what I was talking about, anyway - the fact that people consolidate identity and politics to the point where identity politics have replaced nearly all forms of meaningful discourse.

As such, everything that one doesn't agree with becomes a personal attack. And, that seems to be a willful interpretation in many cases, to me - since most people, whom I've met at least, know that just because you're in the same "category" as someone else, in terms of lifestyle or whatever, doesn't mean you have to share opinions or interests for that sake.

I'm not a walking statement of any kind, and neither are you, and I'm sure we both don't appreciate the implication that we would be, for whatever reason. We're just people.

I find Pride parades offensive because they've become nothing more than a way for businesses to claim "allyship" so they can market themselves to a niche group. You, on the flipside, might find them offensive because they're a vehicle for a political agenda - which I would have to disagree with, then, because if anything, I don't think they're political enough, anymore. :vampwink:

I can understand not wanting to align with the LGBT community, though. For the most part, I don't either, because I find there's often a palpably false sense of fraternity that I don't want anything to do with, but that's a monologue for a different thread...

(then again, I can see the benefits for people who need a sense of community, who would otherwise feel shut out of society - and I respect that, there's just nothing for me personally to gain from associating myself with these circles, because I feel more at home elsewhere, or even by myself)

EDIT: To be fair, I think the only reason why the T is in LGBT, is because society used to think trans people were just mentally ill gay people - or people with two different mental illnesses, for that matter, depending on who you asked.

It's not like gay people "absorbed" trans people into their circles, it's more that these two communities were just grouped together by everyone else, due to a historically limited understanding of gender versus sexuality.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 07:13:47 AM by Candy Narwhal »

Offline deicide

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2019, 09:40:32 AM »
Do you consider yourself a walking agenda, then, since gender non-conformity as a concept generally falls under the umbrella of LGBT identities?

I'm not sure why you would conflate LGBT identity with LGBT politics to begin with - isn't it just simpler to say that you don't identify with the movement?
Ha! Exactly like a Camarilla, who claim that everyone belongs to it regardless want they or not. People are only people, but communities and movements are the whole different matter - they have guidelines, politics, and, consequently, agendas, hence the differentiation. This abbreviation today is not much an umbrella term for gender non-conformity, but denotes a certain movement.

And why do you think this could be even pigeonholed into the "gender non-conformity" term? What I meant, I don't consider gender a defining or important part of me, no more, no less, otherwise I'm utterly "boring", in an another euphemistic term. Yep, I have one and it has some limited uses, pretty much like a legal name, but that is that.
There's a huge difference between concepts of "having a [whatever] identity" and "identifying oneself with [whatever]" that almost everyone equates. In this case, I do have a gender identity, but not identify myself with my gender for the reason that it has little to no importance in an almost every context.
Like, were you ever asked a name while, for example, on LSD? I would reply "fvck you, my name is not me". The proper question will be "how I may address you?" or "what's your legal name?" (if it has any importance in a context). The same rings true for a gender.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 10:34:35 AM by deicide »
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Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2019, 03:32:31 PM »
And honestly, the stereotypes and the Malkavian PC grated me anyway, so not using those sounds like a plus regardless.
As for another question, I'm ok with gay characters in videogames as long as it isn't enforced or somehow shoved in my face

If you don't mind my asking, what do you mean by "enforced"? 

Also, how do you feel about it when a game shoves heterosexuality in the player's face? For instance, at the start of bloodlines, we are turned because we are attempting a hookup with our sire.  Without mods or the plus patch, there is no way out of that.  I would certainly say that is shoved in our faces.  How do you feel about that? 

For my part when I first played the game years ago, times were slightly different and such things were part of the status quo that I was (sadly) very used to, so I didn't really bat an eye even though I would have preferred to have my character sired by an male in an attempted gay hookup.  I DID get annoyed though when I explored the seduction feature and saw that there was a lot of heterosexual seduction and even quite a bit of lesbian seduction but very little male/male seduction.  That one dude at the start of the game and then the guy at the clinic (and even that turned out to be a bug and got corrected by the patch). 

If its a supernatural power that vampires have, should the sexual orientation of the victim really matter that much?  Apparently it does though because when you try to seduce that jerk Brian at the beach house he gets irritated and seemingly grossed out if your character is male.  Apparently natural sexual orientation trumps supernatural powers of persuasion when it comes to male same sex interaction in this game world.  Doesn't make a lot of logical sense to me though.  Truly an instance of shoving sexual orientation in your face in my opinion. 

Heterosexuality gets shoved in player faces all the time and has been for decades, so I am always pretty happy when a game lets us make non-heterosexual choices if we want.  And not due to any personal politics.  Just due to the fact that I am a gay male and so getting to play that in a game makes it all the more fun for me.  Fun, and not politics is my motivator in this regard.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 03:40:08 PM by DarkZephyr »

Offline Barabbah

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2019, 05:20:55 PM »
Heterosexuality gets shoved in player faces all the time and has been for decades, so I am always pretty happy when a game lets us make non-heterosexual choices if we want.  And not due to any personal politics.  Just due to the fact that I am a gay male and so getting to play that in a game makes it all the more fun for me.  Fun, and not politics is my motivator in this regard.

Not understanding these are only extra choices who doesn't replace the traditional ones, other than these narrow minded people have never experienced and suffered these painful experiences, it's the actual problem. But it's also true it's impossible to force narrow minded people to change their mentality since their mind cannot process these concepts.... And don't get me wrong: even if I'm a white hetero I still fell anger when injustices happens. I just wish there would be a better way to make these people understand the world other than theirs.

(I hope my english is up to explain perfectly my theory on this complicate issue)
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Offline deicide

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2019, 08:18:21 PM »
If you don't mind my asking, what do you mean by "enforced"? 
Should I give the same example the third time in this thread? Same devs, Zevran (DA1) vs Anders (DA2), the difference is so hard to miss it could serve as a textbook one.

As for the Bloodlines scene, that's called a reasonably safe generic. Reasonably, because there's still some people with a distaste for such a scenes overall. There isn't any romance plots here, the topic is played mostly for comedy, it's, thankfully, not one of BioWare games which romance sub-plots are more popular (and, sometimes, given more attention from devs) than a main, so I won't be the one to complain about the lack of extra options in this regard. Same with the abundance of AC/DC women, a yet another spin on a well-known cliche. Moreso, barely a single seduction option does not border trash comedy, not to say even remotely serious.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 08:57:13 PM by deicide »
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Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2019, 06:58:08 AM »
Heterosexuality gets shoved in player faces all the time and has been for decades, so I am always pretty happy when a game lets us make non-heterosexual choices if we want.  And not due to any personal politics.  Just due to the fact that I am a gay male and so getting to play that in a game makes it all the more fun for me.  Fun, and not politics is my motivator in this regard.

Not understanding these are only extra choices who doesn't replace the traditional ones, other than these narrow minded people have never experienced and suffered these painful experiences, it's the actual problem. But it's also true it's impossible to force narrow minded people to change their mentality since their mind cannot process these concepts.... And don't get me wrong: even if I'm a white hetero I still fell anger when injustices happens. I just wish there would be a better way to make these people understand the world other than theirs.

(I hope my english is up to explain perfectly my theory on this complicate issue)

I think that in many cases you are absolutely correct.  MANY many cases.  I have noticed over the years that in many ways, many members of the gaming community are a bit behind the times when it comes to acceptance of things like this. 

If you don't mind my asking, what do you mean by "enforced"? 
Should I give the same example the third time in this thread? Same devs, Zevran (DA1) vs Anders (DA2), the difference is so hard to miss it could serve as a textbook one.

I wasn't really hoping for examples so the answer to your question about repeating yourself is no.  I was hoping more for an explanation of the word itself.  The word "enforced" brings to my mind images of police measures and disciplinary actions, so I was hoping more for clarification.


As for the Bloodlines scene, that's called a reasonably safe generic. Reasonably, because there's still some people with a distaste for such a scenes overall. There isn't any romance plots here, the topic is played mostly for comedy,

I certainly don't even remotely get "comedy" out of it, but I respect that this is your takeaway.

it's, thankfully, not one of BioWare games which romance sub-plots are more popular (and, sometimes, given more attention from devs) than a main, so I won't be the one to complain about the lack of extra options in this regard.

Well I appreciate you answering my question as it applies to this particular video game, but it was really meant to be an example.  Can you share your thoughts on this trend in a more general sense at it applies to video games in general?  Are there ever times when forced heterosexuality does rub you the wrong way?

As for the rest of your response, times are changing, so perhaps now that same sex interactions are a lot more reasonable to expect, perhaps they won't be as annoying to you.

I think some would agree that Anne Rice has had a lot of influence when it comes to the modern vampire genre.  She seems to me at least, to be the one to have popularized the notion of sharing blood to turn a mortal into a vampire vs just biting them to make it happen.  In her very popular and successful stories, which date back to the mid 1970s, there is certainly plenty of male on male seduction going on.  As such, I think its pretty reasonable to say that male on male seduction when it comes to vampires could be seen at least by some people as a reasonable expectation even back when Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines was published.  I once read in the older version of the Planet Vampire forums that Troika had actually intended to include more same sex male content but that ActiVision had them cut it out.  I always found that kind of sad.

Quote
Same with the abundance of AC/DC women, a yet another spin on a well-known cliche. Moreso, barely a single seduction option does not border trash comedy, not to say even remotely serious.

Be that as it may, its still a seriously real function of the game, which is of course, a role playing game.  The female version of our character isn't hallucinating these interactions or watching them on a TV screen.  She is actually taking part in them, experiencing them, given the option to choose to make them happen.  They could have just as easily made funny, trashy interactions just like that with male blood dolls for the male version of our character, but they didn't.  Possibly because ActiVision wouldn't allow it.  The closest thing to that that we get is with Tommy Flayton, the food critic in Hollywood if we are male and choose to use seduction on him to accomplish our goal.  But we don't even get a chance to drink from him.  Instead, our only option is to make excuses and act like we want to get the hell out of there ASAP, which always came across to me as being slightly disturbed that we had to reduce ourselves to such yuckiness to complete our mission in the first place.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 02:06:19 PM by DarkZephyr »

Offline Aurelian

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2019, 08:25:54 PM »
Also, how do you feel about it when a game shoves heterosexuality in the player's face?

I would not say there is shoved or enforced heterosexuality in video gaming industry. It just happens that the vast majority of human species (95%-97%) is heterosexual. So developers sell that which is relatable to the vast majority, which heterosexuality by nature is.

Offline Barabbah

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2019, 09:06:12 PM »
If you say there's a majority of heteros I can believe it, if you say at least 95% of people are heteros I cannot
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2019, 10:23:12 PM »
If you say there's a majority of heteros I can believe it, if you say at least 95% of people are heteros I cannot

I read, admittedly a few, studies that did put out that number.

Online Candy Narwhal

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2019, 12:28:20 AM »
I would not say there is shoved or enforced heterosexuality in video gaming industry. It just happens that the vast majority of human species (95%-97%) is heterosexual. So developers sell that which is relatable to the vast majority, which heterosexuality by nature is.

Be as it may that they're pandering to the majority - that doesn't mean heterosexuality isn't shoved in our faces.

This is more often the case with movies, but even in video games, I don't think it's particularly hard to find romance subplots that exist for seemingly no other reason than to serve as cheap plot devices - that is, if they contribute to the overarching plot at all, and the romance isn't just thrown in for the sake of having it, as if checking things off a list.

(which reminds you of how some people attempt to be progressive, doesn't it?)

I wouldn't use the word "enforced" though, myself, since video games at least leave romance up to the player's choice, generally.

At the end of the day, I don't think I'd mind these inclusions if they didn't suffer from poor writing - all too often does a character get introduced, only to get killed off about five minutes later, and then we're expected to grieve the character as if we were attached to them.

Offline deicide

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2019, 01:00:44 AM »
Be as it may that they're pandering to the majority - that doesn't mean heterosexuality isn't shoved in our faces.
Not entirely, a pointlessly sexed-up content means sexuality, without the first part, is being showed in our faces. Since pandering to majority only was more usual until recent, uh, progressive (in a loud whisper: cri$is) developments, guess which sort it was. Nothing has changed, same balls, now from a side view.

Will reply on everything else later.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:04:31 AM by deicide »
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Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2019, 02:16:44 AM »
Also, how do you feel about it when a game shoves heterosexuality in the player's face?

I would not say there is shoved or enforced heterosexuality in video gaming industry. It just happens that the vast majority of human species (95%-97%) is heterosexual. So developers sell that which is relatable to the vast majority, which heterosexuality by nature is.

With all due respect, for me your words imply that the gaming industry's motives are about more than just "95%-97% of the human species being heterosexual".  Something that I certainly don't actually believe (percentage-wise), but I won't argue with that for this discussion.  Your words also imply that the gaming industry believes that 95%-97% of the human species is homophobic or unwilling to share their gaming experience with non-heterosexuals even if the added content is something they don't personally have to choose.  That the mere optional presence of same sex content is so offensive and such an affront to the vast majority of the human race in such a very extreme way that any game that has it will tank miserably.  I don't believe that's the case whatsoever.  The Sims franchise remains one of the most successful game franchises ever.  Skyrim remains widlely popular, Most complaints that people had about Fallout 4, which still did pretty well, weren't really about the presence of options for same sex romances.  Fallout New Vegas is wildly popular despite the presence of gay and lesbian characters and of course we have the BioWare games, the opinion of some members of this forum for BioWare not withstanding.  Dorian remains a very well liked and popular video game character. 

The way I see it, sheer numbers are irrelevant.  Regardless of how many people are straight vs. lesbian, gay, bi or pansexual, a significant, non-ignorable portion of society still is non-heterosexual.  If putting non-heterosexuality in a game = "shoving it in people's faces" then putting heterosexuality in a game = shoving it in people's faces as well, point blank period.  Its certainly how I have felt about it for the past few decades.  But if you don't like the terminology of "shoving it in faces" (I was borrowing deicide's terminology), then please replace that with "not giving an option to be anything other than heterosexual" and my question remains.  Because what it really boils down to isn't really about "are most people straight", it boils down to "is it really so problematic to give non-straight people an option that straight people don't have to touch if they don't want to?"  I mean we may be in the minority but we're still here and we aren't insignificant.


I would not say there is shoved or enforced heterosexuality in video gaming industry. It just happens that the vast majority of human species (95%-97%) is heterosexual. So developers sell that which is relatable to the vast majority, which heterosexuality by nature is.

Be as it may that they're pandering to the majority - that doesn't mean heterosexuality isn't shoved in our faces.

Amen.

I am curious to know why those who do take offense to the presence of LGBT content, and I will say "LGBT", as its not a political term, its a community term and a descriptive, easy to type term, take such offense in the first place.  Why is it so horrible to them that other people get to make choices that fit their definition of fun just like they get to do?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 02:23:54 AM by DarkZephyr »

Offline Radical21

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2019, 02:29:36 AM »


I am curious to know why those who do take offense to the presence of LGBT content, and I will say "LGBT", as its not a political term, its a community term and a descriptive, easy to type term, take such offense in the first place.  Why is it so horrible to them that other people get to make choices that fit their definition of fun just like they get to do?

Some people are crazy homophobes sure, but I doubt most people really take offence at the LGBT content, its more of an issue where LGBT content is found in places where people's sexual orientation would not really be relevant and putting it in there for the sake of pointing out that characters are not heterosexual etc, feels a little forced.

Online Candy Narwhal

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Re: If this is what I think it is...
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2019, 02:47:05 AM »
Some people are crazy homophobes sure, but I doubt most people really take offence at the LGBT content, its more of an issue where LGBT content is found in places where people's sexual orientation would not really be relevant and putting it in there for the sake of pointing out that characters are not heterosexual etc, feels a little forced.

The thing is that you very rarely see this type of criticism levied towards heterosexual content.

There are many instances in which a fictional character's sexual orientation has no bearing on the story, merely serving as fluff - but it's only called shoehorning when it's LGBT content...

I think that's a double standard - but maybe I'm naïve to expect people wouldn't be so biased, considering the aforementioned majority of straight people "deciding" what goes, so to speak, in popular culture.

Having said that, I still think it's messed up.

Besides, we're never going to get to a point where LGBT content doesn't feel forced, if any attempts (outside of niche productions) to be so inclusive, will always be met with that kind of pushback.

It's never going to feel natural unless you let it happen naturally - which it very much is, currently, but people are making it weird, so at the same time it's not.

Catch-22. I'd rather we just let creators do whatever the fuck they want. That's what they did with Bloodlines, and what they're doing with Bloodlines 2.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 02:54:23 AM by Candy Narwhal »