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Author Topic: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?  (Read 13606 times)

Offline mouser9169

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 07:56:31 PM »
*shrug*

This has happened with pretty much every table top game that managed to stay alive long enough.

See: Dungeons & Dragons (white box), Dungeons & Dragons (BEMCI), Advanced Dungeons & Dragaons, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition, Dungeons & Dragons 3.5, Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition...

Talk about continuity lock out... There is more written about the Forgotten Realms (one setting out of many in D&D) than many real world countries (way, way more than written about WoD) - that includes the ecology of the land, histories, factbooks, biographies, geographies, and anything else you can think of (and up until 4th edition, they managed to keep it all pretty much straight).

White Wolf always said with World of Darkness that the world would end. It did.

They came out with a new game with better balance between the three main "classes" and a common ruleset base. Were their decisions influenced by things like MMO's, cRPG's, console games, and other tabletop games? I sure hope so, I'd hate to think the execs all have their heads in the sand for the last few years.

As to whether or not "new" World of Darkness is better than "old" World of Darkness - I suggest you go to Wizards of the Coast's forums (or any big D&D fansite, like ENWorld) and search for "edition wars".

My only "concern" with New World of Darkness is the name.
What do you call the next ediition?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 06:42:13 PM by mouser9169 »
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Offline Nigama

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 10:39:52 PM »
 :sexme:

You mean, Cash WoD?  The one they made for money?

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Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2012, 05:56:54 AM »
Really, I like the NWoD setting, system and history. It has a scenarii bible (meaning that all authors are in agreement with the basic core stuff. It has a true guideline ! Like all law and order episodes have the same guideline, no matter who's the director.
For vampire, Requiem is much more "urban legends", while in Masquerade it's mostly mythological creatures.

The precedent WoD, which I love deeply, has many many flaws. It came out of "a nice idea" (Anne Rice books), then tried to be world-widely adapted, then they asked themselves "okay what was before ?" and they patched everything all the time, causing lots of exceptions, special rules. And i'm not even talking about different authors that want their part of glorious and fame ("my invention is better than yours", leading to lol-bloodlines and more awesomeness given to, for instance, the malkies or the Tremere, both clans I love). I like canon characters, but Menele and Helena of Troyes was just too... too adventure saga, too much, and not enough horror, not enough personal horror. When I play vampire, or when I ST vampire, my players do not expect an adventure like the one you can find in Brave New World, in Brain Soda, or in Warhammer. The implicit contract of the game....




Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2012, 12:51:31 PM »
And i'm not even talking about different authors that want their part of glorious and fame ("my invention is better than yours", leading to lol-bloodlines and more awesomeness given to, for instance, the malkies or the Tremere, both clans I love).
Kli Kodesh. A beautiful, sunlight-immune Nosferatu who apparently thinks he's Judas Iscariot. *sigh*

The story of Menele and Helena had a lot of potential for personal horror and gruesomeness, at least, even though it was totally skipped over in the Chicago Chronicles. Imagine being Helena 2,500 years ago, under a blood bond to an overbearing, paranoid, jealous monster like Menele, in the heavily mysoginistic culture of the ancient Greeks, with a Methuselah's blood but not a Methuselah's level of power to back it up, and your only escape - or even to survive - is having to betray the man you actually loved.
I mean, nowadays Helena ("Portia") seems pretty much a bitch, but then, she's been undead for at least 2,500 years (probably more like 3,000-3,500), and that sort of thing wears on you. OWoD vampires don't have the Mist of Ages thing, but their guilts and passions do prey upon their minds for their entire existences. That's what I liked about the concept of Alexander in the Dark Ages novels. Here's an ancient creature stuck in the body of a young boy, with a young boy's desire for love and companionship, with a young boy's inability to tell the difference between love and lust, but an ancient creature's cynicism, paranoia, and vindictiveness, because maybe that's the only thing that gives him a spark of (sick, twisted) glee anymore. I'm sure a Freudian psychoanalyst would've loved to get his hands on Alexander.

Wait - are Brave New World and Warhammer being used as positive or negative examples of a horror game?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 12:53:18 PM by Rick Gentle »
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Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2012, 07:30:40 AM »
Neither ;)
I meant that when I run a Warhammer (40 000) game, players expect something out of it, while they do not expect the same things when I tell them I'm going to run a Vampire or a Brave New World game. Neither of the three games have the same implicit contract. Vampire is personal horror, brave new world is heroic world with super powers, and warhammer (at least 40 000) is adventure, corpo, imperialism.

I don't run a Vampire game to have super-vampires saving the world from an umbra breakthrough. That's a Brave New World campaign.
I won't run a Paranoia XP game to scare players, I'd rather use a game like the world of darkness (the human one), or Cthulhu.

-> implicit contract of the story teller.



See, the problem with mythology, is that it has its place in SCION, not in the World of Darkness. Helena, Menele and all that shouldn't be in the oWoD to begin with. How can they store so much memory in a dead brain ? our brains can't handle all that, hell, my political memory lasts for about 6 months, how can you manage remembering all bitchy stuff that happened in Elysium for over 200 years. (this is why I love the torpor system of the NWoD, it's so much more logical)
Yes for concepts of very old characters, but for me, they shouldn't go over 1000 years old. It's hard enough to even conceptualize a character which has lived through the Cold War as "a phase". It's hard for us to comprehend the cynism of "old people", and how come some of them don't think about using the Internet, so... how can you portray correctly, not in caricaturaly, someone who honestly thinks women have no souls ?



Offline Nigama

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2012, 09:18:55 AM »
See, the problem with mythology, is that it has its place in SCION, not in the World of Darkness. Helena, Menele and all that shouldn't be in the oWoD to begin with. How can they store so much memory in a dead brain ? our brains can't handle all that, hell, my political memory lasts for about 6 months, how can you manage remembering all bitchy stuff that happened in Elysium for over 200 years.

Certainly Kindred are able to change in ways, they are not completely stuck in stasis.  Definitely our oldest memories would seem like past lives if we lived to be 1000 years old.  They'd be misremembered and fuzzy.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't be there in some form and the more recent the stronger they would be. 

I also disagree with you on mythology having no place in the CWoD.  I think it's awesome that Kindred have been behind the scenes through important parts of human history.

Quote
(this is why I love the torpor system of the NWoD, it's so much more logical)
Yes for concepts of very old characters, but for me, they shouldn't go over 1000 years old.

Def disagree.  I can't stand the new torpor and Fog of Ages garbage.  It ruins a lot of good potential stories, character backgrounds, flashback scenes, and playing through moments in one's past lives.  More options for telling stories, NOT less options!

Quote
It's hard enough to even conceptualize a character which has lived through the Cold War as "a phase". It's hard for us to comprehend the cynism of "old people", and how come some of them don't think about using the Internet, so...

Sounds like something different and fun to try and play!

Quote
how can you portray correctly, not in caricaturaly, someone who honestly thinks women have no souls ?

... 

I believe women have no souls, so that's not too hard.























In fairness, I also believe men have no souls, so it's not personal.  I'm Buddhist.  Anatman is a core philosophy.

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Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2012, 11:02:41 AM »
I'm an atheist myself, so the "women have no souls" was just for the lulz ;) But then, take a look at some conservators today, how they think women should stay at home, men can be unfaithful as they wish, that the priest is as, if not more important than the teacher (this was said by my president a few years ago, omfg, seriously)...

But see, take a Crusader and show him genetics. Take a guy Embraced because of his amazing navigation skills, and tell him "Paris-New York in three hours"
Mind = blown ?

Yeah they can adapt to new ways, but they are still dead things, they can't truly "evolve" or learn. Brain chimestry won't change, would it ? (now that's up to the ST, borders were not set in the oWoD).
"Sure he's equal to us and all that, totally... but he's still a fucking negro".


I think Mythology has a certain place in the Kindred world, as "stories told", not as truth


« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 11:07:45 AM by Claudia Vonigner »

Offline PGM1961

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2012, 01:47:00 PM »
A vampire can try to keep up with new ideas, fads, etc... I mean, they are supernatural creatures, so I don't believe they are limited by brain chemistry, neuron limits, and all that keeps us from storing knowledge indefinitely.  I don't like the new torpor rules either, and I especially don't like 'Fog of Eternity' (Not Fog of Ages).  I do believe that very old vampires often get their facts wrong, because we all edit our personal history.  Go to a high school reunion, and listen to people argue over what happened 10 years ago.  But that's not the same as your memories being wiped away, just because the game developer didn't want to bother writing a new history for vampires.

Yes, yes, I know it gives the Storyteller more freedom to make up their own histories... but it also takes away a lot of the framework for the game.  That's my opinion, anyway.

I think the main reason vampires grow more static is that they just get tired of changing to match the current era.  After changing their clothes to match mortal fashion so many times (to keep up the Masquerade), they grow weary of it all, and eventually stick to the styles they are most comfortable with, whether it's a toga, long coat and stovepipe hat, or bellbottoms and a tie-dyed T-shirt.

The same applies to social change.  If you were raised in a feudal system, even though you might see the advantage of a Republic in your head, in your heart you still think one guy should be King.  And that women should stay home and make babies, despite the fact that many women are just as good in a corporate boardroom as men.

People who are tired of change want the world to stay the same.  And that's why older vamps fight change... not because they can't learn anything new, or because they can't see the benefit of new ideas, but because they are comfortable, and they resist any new idea/fad/invention that takes them out of that comfort zone.  Plus, change is dangerous, because it takes the advantage away from the elders, and places it in the hands of younger vampires, who are more familiar with change, and new ideas.  No elder wants to give up his power and trust some young punk.  So they fight to keep the old ways (and their power base) intact.

I think one of the most dangerous creatures in the World of Darkness would be an elder vampire who decides "What the hell.  I'm tired of the same old shit every day.  I'm going to embrace change, and try to shake up things around here."  Imagine the horror of his peers, and how hard they would try to put him down.   :vampsmile:
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Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2012, 03:03:31 PM »
See, that's why I prefer the oWoD. I like frames, I like canon stories. But I also like to surprise my players with stuff, especially players who already know the setting. I like having characters debate on the concept of generation and blood potency, being able to spend it as they wish or not. I like having character discover that kindred vitae can't or can be stored. I like characters discovering with amazingness the side-effects of thaumaturgy and its willpower cost.
It's one of the reasons I love Amber : this one guy hidden behind a bush killed the Bad Guy with an arrow in the throat, and we're talking about immortal omniscient rulers of the world :D


PGM, have you ever read the official BG of Fran├žois Villon, Prince of Paris ? :D

Of course it's not because they can't (have not the capacity of), but because they can't (they don't want to, too much hassle, too much risk -> whoever put all their money into 3D tv, or laserdisks, or baloons -heidenburg-, or vapor-trains lost everything).


They get their facts wrong because their brains is just not meant to store everything, especially if they had considered it meaningless at the time (a day of bombings which decimated a rival clan, for instance, wink, wink)

Offline Rick Gentle

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2012, 04:14:38 PM »
"Sure he's equal to us and all that, totally... but he's still a fucking negro".
Prince Benison of Atlanta had a racial thing going, but he could apparently put it aside when his unlife was in danger, even taking a sword offered from the hand of a black Archon. I kind of doubt that this counts as "growth" or "personal evolution", but I think that if you're good enough to become Prince, you develop a keen awareness of the political situation and how to bend with it.

I'm also reading Mexico City by Night, and in that book there are plenty of Cainites who use the myths and superstitions of mortals to take their places as mythological figures - the gods Tlaloc, Tezcatlipoca, and Huitzilopochtli. There's also Mithras, a Ventrue who took on the role of a sun-god in millenia past. Comparatively, Menele and Helena aren't so bad - at least both of those characters were supposed to be mortal (or only a demi-god, in Helena's case).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 04:16:59 PM by Rick Gentle »
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Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2012, 05:16:28 PM »
Oh yeah, Mexico city by night is just awfully wrong, in every aspect of the thing.
(especially since I've lived in Mexico city for over 10 years, I only but lol'd at everything they published)


I love to hate supplements. It's sad authors did not communicate ! I mean, inconsistencies...

Until now, the most solid game of the oWoD I saw was Mummy, because it doesn't have hundreds of supplements. Srsly :D



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Offline Nigama

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2012, 07:11:44 PM »
I think one of the most dangerous creatures in the World of Darkness would be an elder vampire who decides "What the hell.  I'm tired of the same old shit every day.  I'm going to embrace change, and try to shake up things around here."  Imagine the horror of his peers, and how hard they would try to put him down.   :vampsmile:

Armand from Ann Rice's Vampire Chronicles comes to mind.  He is fairly old but has a habit of creating a vampire from the modern era (or in Louis' case shacking up with one already made) to keep him up to date on current times (Louis turns him down).  Clearly that's a working strategy to stay somewhat relevant.

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Offline PGM1961

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2012, 11:37:14 PM »
It's one of the reasons I love Amber : this one guy hidden behind a bush killed the Bad Guy with an arrow in the throat, and we're talking about immortal omniscient rulers of the world :D

Okay, we're just talking one of my favorite stories ever.  If you weren't too young for me (or if I weren't too old for you), I'd say "Marry me."

Note: Brand deserved a lot worse than a silver arrow through the throat, because he took Deirdre with him.  That made my Shadow analogue in Amber very sad.

PGM, have you ever read the official BG of Fran├žois Villon, Prince of Paris ? :D

I have 'France by Night', but since I don't really speak French (yet), my understanding is vague.  He has an entry in the 'Encyclopaedia Vampirica', but it's only a paragraph.  Besides... I'm in your game, and I'm not sure I want too much knowledge that my character doesn't have.   :smile:

Of course it's not because they can't (have not the capacity of), but because they can't (they don't want to, too much hassle, too much risk -> whoever put all their money into 3D tv, or laserdisks, or baloons -heidenburg-, or vapor-trains lost everything).

Exactly.  Change is risky, and too many elders no longer take risks.  But if you never do anything risky, (un)life is booooooring.

They get their facts wrong because their brains is just not meant to store everything, especially if they had considered it meaningless at the time (a day of bombings which decimated a rival clan, for instance, wink, wink)

Don't catch the reference.  Dresden?
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Offline mouser9169

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2012, 01:48:23 AM »
"A Kindred's got to keep up with the times, and in modern day Los Angeles, that means coming strapped"  :taunt:

Even Caine - after 6,000 years the guys hip enough to pass as a cabbie.
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Offline Claudia Vonigner

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Re: Why did Vampire: The Requiem reboot the mythology?
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2012, 05:56:28 AM »
I meant Theo and the Tremere clan on the game, PGM :) that was the ref.

I really like the idea of Amber, but I have crappy memory. Anyway im already engaged to Lyle :-D

Its not france by night, it's WoD France, and don't bother, it crappy. I'm using part of it but some of it is just wrong. And outdated. So I will not tell you about Villon then :-)

About Caine, there are debates. In some book (those with Gehenna signs) they say it's a Malkav posing as Caine and diving his cab. I'll find that again for you guys ;)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 06:19:36 AM by Claudia Vonigner »