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Author Topic: Best and Worst  (Read 18331 times)

Offline Palp

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Re: Best and Worst
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2011, 06:34:25 PM »
Personally I would not like this specific power making combat a contested roll due to how well it works allready. Rather if I wished to change it I would have Resillience added to armour, either for opponents dicepool or successes. Perhaps it adds its rating as dicepool penalty (although that then tramples on celeritys territory) And also remove its rating in successes per scene.

The whole idea of changing Resilience that way was that it still leaves a chance of getting damaged.
if you subtract it from the attackers dicepool then it is not up to chance and the dice already minimize the attack roll regardless if it did damage at all which again doesn't make any sense in regards to what the discipline is meant to accomplish..

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Celerity is not more powerful, its very weak because Fast Reflexes 2 is always Active and it adds +2 initiative where Celerity costs blood per turn and at its lowest level adds only +1 initiative , and that blood per turn could have been used in other better ways since that bonus is far from assurance that the character with celerity act sooner or faster.
The bonuse to Initiative Celerity alone provides only gets substantial enough at level 3+ which is too little too late.
The fact that Fresh Start , Quick Draw and Fighting styles are able to Accomplish these feats and Celerity of any level simply can't is illogical, regardless of how powerful you think they are.

With Attack Dicepools that can easily get to 10+ The bonus to defense is neg-liable at most levels unless your character is wearing heavy armor which gives penalty to Defense or Speed or Both and is hard to excuse wearing in most cases .
Anyway I'm not alone in calling it a waste of blood points, even more so if your character is Blood Potency 3 or below and can only spend a single vitae point per turn which is exactly what celerity demands to remain active.
 (For comparision Resilence and Vigor cost 1 Vitae Per scene).

The only way to fix it is to change or add to Celerity in some way to enable its upper body functions .

Yes, celerity is per turn, but it is comparably signifigantly more powerfull then Potence. First adding to strength (your attack pool) and withdrawing from your opponents dice pool is ballanced, but the advantage to removing from pools of the opponents is that it can happen many times on a round of you suffer multiple attacks, while your strength is likely to only come in effect once, and of course it stacks with defense, dodge and armour. Then Celerity also offers +1 to +5 on initiative, allowing you to change your order in it, another most powerfull thing. And finally Celerity multiplies your speed, allowing you to move far further then others, allowing you to withdraw with ease, and control an engagement. It is theese three abilities together that makes it powerfull.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Best and Worst
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2011, 07:01:54 PM »
Yes, celerity is per turn, but it is comparably signifigantly more powerfull then Potence. First adding to strength (your attack pool) and withdrawing from your opponents dice pool is ballanced, but the advantage to removing from pools of the opponents is that it can happen many times on a round of you suffer multiple attacks, while your strength is likely to only come in effect once, and of course it stacks with defense, dodge and armour. Then Celerity also offers +1 to +5 on initiative, allowing you to change your order in it, another most powerfull thing. And finally Celerity multiplies your speed, allowing you to move far further then others, allowing you to withdraw with ease, and control an engagement. It is theese three abilities together that makes it powerfull.

The first Advantage you mentioned only comes into play assuming your character is attacked more than once during a round which is unlikely. 

The Bonus to Defense itself is neg-liable if your attacker has a clean dice-pool of 12  since if you remove 1 from that he has 11, no big deal.. to even get to level 5 where it actually has a chance of making a difference, you need to spend loads of XP.  This is even more true if you say that Blood Augmentation can't affect Defense(since it can Affect attack)
Kevlar vest only gives a bonus of 2 armor against firearms and 1 against melee so nothing special..
Any higher rated Armor already gives Penalty to Defense and Speed so it counters the Disciplines effect in a sense.

The Bonus to Initiative doesn't really get you anything at Starter levels and it won't give you anything if you anyway scored below 5 on your initiative roll for example.(unless you already had an advantage from having Fast Reflexes 2 merit or something like that )

The bonus to movement is irrelevant if doors cost the Turn's action just to open, why? because if you are inside a room you can't run if there is nowhere to run. and aside from that Storytellers do not measure the distance so unless you have a grid map of some kind, the movement Speed factor is also largely ignored and you would need to constantly remind the Storyteller not to ignore it...
If you are melee and the Celerity user is Firearms, all you need is to trap him inside a room where you can get close and Celerity doesn't matter much anymore, or alternatively just stake out and wait until the Celerity user runs out of blood to burn. Firearms only deals Bashing usually anyway so its no big deal for vampires.

Celerity is good support discipline on a Character that already had a solid high potency combat-oriented build to begin with.
Unlike Vigor and Resilience , its useless outside of combat.

The easiest way to Test it is to have two identical unbiased builds, one with Vigor 5 or Resilience 5 and another with Celerity 5 and see who wins.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 07:19:16 PM by Radical21 »

Offline Palp

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Re: Best and Worst
« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2011, 07:45:45 PM »
Yes, celerity is per turn, but it is comparably signifigantly more powerfull then Potence. First adding to strength (your attack pool) and withdrawing from your opponents dice pool is ballanced, but the advantage to removing from pools of the opponents is that it can happen many times on a round of you suffer multiple attacks, while your strength is likely to only come in effect once, and of course it stacks with defense, dodge and armour. Then Celerity also offers +1 to +5 on initiative, allowing you to change your order in it, another most powerfull thing. And finally Celerity multiplies your speed, allowing you to move far further then others, allowing you to withdraw with ease, and control an engagement. It is theese three abilities together that makes it powerfull.

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The first Advantage you mentioned only comes into play assuming your character is attacked more than once during a round which is unlikely. 

The Bonus to Defense itself is neg-liable if your attacker has a clean dice-pool of 12  since if you remove 1 from that he has 11, no big deal.. to even get to level 5 where it actually has a chance of making a difference, you need to spend loads of XP.  This is even more true if you say that Blood Augmentation can't affect Defense(since it can Affect attack)
Kevlar vest only gives a bonus of 2 armor against firearms and 1 against melee so nothing special..
Any higher rated Armor already gives Penalty to Defense and Speed so it counters the Disciplines effect in a sense.

Yes, you are right. It is a system with an offencive bias, building high attack pools are easier then building up a high defence.

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The Bonus to Initiative doesn't really get you anything at Starter levels and it won't give you anything if you anyway scored below 5 on your initiative roll for example.(unless you already had an advantage from having Fast Reflexes 2 merit or something like that )

Yes, it is highly dependent on the dice roll you get compared to others, but I wouldnt count it out so easily.

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The bonus to movement is irrelevant if doors cost the Turn's action just to open, why? because if you are inside a room you can't run if there is nowhere to run. and aside from that Storytellers do not measure the distance so unless you have a grid map of some kind, the movement Speed factor is also largely ignored and you would need to constantly remind the Storyteller not to ignore it...
If you are melee and the Celerity user is Firearms, all you need is to trap him inside a room where you can get close and Celerity doesn't matter much anymore, or alternatively just stake out and wait until the Celerity user runs out of blood to burn. Firearms only deals Bashing usually anyway so its no big deal for vampires.

The effectiveness of the movement part of Celerity is indeed highly dependent on ones surroundings, are there hinderences, cover, concealment..and so on.

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Celerity is good support discipline on a Character that already had a solid high potency combat-oriented build to begin with.
Unlike Vigor and Resilience , its useless outside of combat.

The easiest way to Test it is to have two identical unbiased builds, one with Vigor 5 or Resilience 5 and another with Celerity 5 and see who wins.

I think in the end here it have come down to opinion and specific situation, and we could go on about it for a long time, so it may be best to move on.