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Poll

Which idea would you like the most?

Wake up back in the tomb, an opening, and run into a certain group of hunters
1 (16.7%)
Wake up in a sterile white room on tables being greeted by someone
1 (16.7%)
TTTTTIIIIIIIMEEEEEE TRAAAAAAAAVEEEEEL
2 (33.3%)
Wake up back in the tomb just as you left it! Have fun eating each other
2 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: August 10, 2011, 03:48:01 AM

Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Scene Two Poll  (Read 6165 times)

Offline Aydoo

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Scene Two Poll
« on: August 05, 2011, 03:48:01 AM »
So. I've run into a snag, and have been mulling it over for a week or so. I really never expected everyone to want to just get out, and ignore (what I had hoped) would be a self-discovering roleplay experience as everyone would explore their character's minds. So I have, at hand 4 scenerios to continue our little ditty with, and I'm giving all of you the choice to pick which you'd like to see. So go ahead and throw a vote and we'll see what happens :>

Offline Radical21

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 04:31:47 AM »
So. I've run into a snag, and have been mulling it over for a week or so. I really never expected everyone to want to just get out, and ignore (what I had hoped) would be a self-discovering roleplay experience as everyone would explore their character's minds. So I have, at hand 4 scenerios to continue our little ditty with, and I'm giving all of you the choice to pick which you'd like to see. So go ahead and throw a vote and we'll see what happens :>

We did explore our characters and invent them in the process on top of conflicting nature and demeanor which I thought was the point of the exercise, beyond that I am not sure what you mean about exploring the mind, aside from uncovering layers hidden by amnesia which is something that remains mostly out of the character's reach I had thought.

Offline Malavis

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 07:23:58 AM »
It's difficult for me to say much on this subject- as I believe that a desire to escape was a way of exploring the characters themselves. It is tough to discover a blank slate, after all, and with very little stimulus to be found in the dark, it seemed like the most logical assumption that they would want to escape before trying to discover themselves.

The idea of discovering someone with no memory beyond their initial awakening is one that I have tried to wrap my head around, I can come up with only a few roleplaying solutions in this, because I believe it would be my character's first priority to try to get free from the dark room where there is no escape and strange hallucinations going on.

In Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the physiological needs of food, water, sex, homeostasis, and sleep supplant all others in the heirarchy.
After that comes Security of Mind and body/resources/etc etc etc. Friendship and personal bonds, self-esteem, Morality, creativity, and so on and so forth are fourth or more on the list: They come after the other needs are met. I guess my point is that a character would not believably have cause to focus on his own mental state or on the personalities of others until their immediate safety was secured. Survival takes over all other instinctual and psychological points of action: Standing around and simply conversing when it's clear through conversation that NO one knows what is going on would be somewhat moot- especially with the pervasive feeling of danger and the death of two characters. That would drive ANYONE to seek a way out.

We had our "Do you know what is going on? Who am I?" Moments, and it was made clear that each of us is just as confused as the other. According to Maslow, the "Ok, well then let's focus on getting out of here" response seems the most logical course of action after that, and barring any new development, it would seem that the characters would continue on that course until they either succeeded in their objective or found themselves with new stimulus on which to act. For that reason, I happen to think that the unifying power of the desire to escape was very believably roleplayed, as was the struggle for dominance within it. Until new stimulus is introduced, we will continue to try to escape and it makes sense to do so until we achieve homeostasis: Putting any human in a situation where he instinctually knows himself to be in danger would likely produce the same result :) Experiment phase 1 appears to have proven true for everyone playing, though perhaps not in the way you'd initially anticipated.

As for the next phase, I'm going to decline to vote. I personally believe it is the storyteller's obligation (and the best part of the storytelling experience) to craft the story as he sees fit. If you want us to suddenly be sentient beams of light, we are going to do our best to roleplay that as believably as we can within the confines of what we already know about our characters. I'm not going to vote on which direction I would like to see this move in, because it is your story, and I am confident that you have a direction in mind for it. Storytelling is not so much about pleasing your players as it is about creating a framework in which they can operate. More often than not, the players bounce around in it in ways that you didn't predict. That doesn't mean that it's time to revamp everything, it just means that you may need to give us a nudge in ways you didn't initially think we'd need. :)

Just my thoughts on it anyway.

Offline Aydoo

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 09:30:05 AM »
The problem being now is I have too many ideas, and am not sure which to use. The first of the list is something of a joke that I doubt any of you will get, and its if its impact is lost, or I have to explain it, then well it wasn't worth the effort outside my own chuckles of the novelty of it. The next two are things I've mulled around with one being what I think would be appropriate, and the other just some sillyness. The last is pretty much, "fuck it do what you want." While I respect your notion to not vote, its not very conductive, or productive to the group as a whole, since I'm just asking an opinion on what kinds of things you, as a player would like. In the end I'll do as I damn well please as usual. Take it with a grain of salt and just put on a vote.


And yes I agree everyone did extremely well considering the circumstances, but I felt and its been brought up a few were missing the point or there was a bit of lacking, which I privately addressed.

Quote
Putting any human in a situation where he instinctually knows himself to be in danger would likely produce the same result :)

This is the problem I saw actually. From my POV and what I tried to imply was the characters knew they weren't human, so this instinctual urge shouldn't have been as strong. While yes kindred can wassail and have their own flight or fight instincts, I felt there could have been more meaningful interactions rather than a blaise attempt to keep looking around the room asking the ST "do I find something now?" every 10 mins, with the repeated answer of everything is the same as it was before, in which I get "Well I give up I'll go sit in the corner then."

I think in the end the prose, didn't help and was too vague. I was trying to create a free open environment and not impose super restrictions to styme creativity, but ultimately ended up hurting my own cause for direction. This is why this is all an experiment, not only for you as players, but for me as a writer, and creatively as a designer.

Offline Voidshaper

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2011, 04:40:31 PM »
I was trying to create a free open environment and not impose super restrictions to styme creativity, but ultimately ended up hurting my own cause for direction. This is why this is all an experiment, not only for you as players, but for me as a writer, and creatively as a designer.

I like how this all began, I think it's very innovative, and I really enjoyed the randomness of character generation. Even the mass amnesia was cool. And being trapped in a room.

But here's my 2 cents on what's missing:

You talk about wanting to create a free and open environment and not to stymie creativity, but we are trapped in a room with no apparent options from the ST. If we could get out into the world, we could raise power bases, get involved in mob activity, start a cult, etc. etc. etc. The possibilities are limitless then. But a single roomed tomb does not a sandbox make.

On the other hand, a bunch of strangers trapped in a tomb together is an amazing opportunity for character exposition and exploration. Except the only problem here is that we HAVE no characters. We have stats, and Nature/Demeanor. What matters most in a character is their personal history. Their dreams, fears, doubts. Their vengeances, their shames. But we all have amnesia. None of our characters has a history to explore. At least not without more exposition from the ST.

The type of game you've created is very cool, even with us trapped in a room with no escape and no memories. But at that point, it REQUIRES a lot of ST input to remain engaging, because we can't explore anything physically or mentally, and socially we don't have enough of a character backbone to really understand our own character's interactions.

My vote would be to get us out into the world somehow, whether together or split up, and let us start powermongering for some cause or another. Initially I thought we were going to be the ones who unwittingly brought about Gehenna, given that the timing is almost right.

EDIT: The point is... you can have one or the other if you're expecting your players to improvise for themselves - (a) trapped with no escape or (b) amnesia - but not both. If you want both, you're going to need to insert yourself as the ST to make the experience engaging; revealing memories, plots, chances for escape that always seem to fail, building tension, etc. I liked the added touch of the journal, for instance.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 05:04:22 PM by Voidshaper »

Offline Aydoo

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 06:46:53 PM »
I didn't think that I would have to carrot + stick anymore exposition than I did. I threw in several plotlines, which thus far have been ignored with out suffiencent side explanation to the player. Try reading through everything again, and thinking harder to delve deeper into whats already been established. I established the setting, I established the motive, I established a history, and even touched upon it multiple times. I gave everyone a general what you know, who you know, and where you are. From there it was your object to develop the character. Personal history? Ask Bigpaw about what he thinks of his character sometime, and how he imagines the person was before the big sleep. Each of the characters were made with clashing and compatible personalities in mind. Thats why I based the whole theme of them off the zodiac, as well as threw in a couple of wild card characters to mix it up.

I'm not one use the ST voice to mention things you didn't think of. "Thar be a key under that matt perhaps you should look!" isn't my type of thing. Did you not notice how the more specific you got, the more specific I did? When everyone stopped, "Well I'm going to roll and search the room now." and started actively thinking, things started popping up that had been missed before. I'm not one to spoon feed details that people aren't looking for.

You shouldn't have to have a whole world to muck around with. What is it other than a bigger box with more crap cluttering it up? If you scale it down theres just as much crap cluttering up the huge room everyone was in just as well. I mean with the line of thought, should I just complain because my character is trapped in one plane of existance in Rad's game rather than a multiverse where I can have more places to go do the same thing I'm doing now? (Note to self, Gwen + Multiverse.) I really enjoyed the power struggle that started, and almost ended in violence.

There is alot of discussion as to the nature of the place you are in. I figured after the 40th time of me saying you see no way out, everyone would get over it and move on to the interaction of trying to reason what the place is, what YOUR place in being there was, and what you are to each other. Privately a few of you have made mention already, but it would have been nice to see it presented more.

Offline Voidshaper

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 07:42:39 PM »
Oh, I have no problem imaging and inventing an elaborate history for my character (I kind of imagined Isador and I as Northern European tribes people). But with amnesia all that imagination does us no good. We aren't allowed to use it, until the ST says so. In that way we are dependent on the ST to allow us access to our memories. And because memories influence the overall character, we therefore rely on the ST to develop more "complete" characters, beyond just acting upon our Nature/Demeanors (or Derangements, in some cases).

Again, I loved the journal, and the creepy dream/flashback scene. It was well executed, and it did add to the overall plot. I won't argue that the plot is weak - in fact I think it's the strongest part of this experiment, and the reason playing it is so appealing. But again...that's ST intervention - it is meant to add to the game, and it does when it's there.

Realistically though, we've only been awake for a few hours, in a dark tomb with caved in sections. Ordinary people in this situation WOULD keep looking for a way out, for hours and hours, not only because it's dark and maybe they missed something, but because not doing so would be admitting defeat, and accepting death - which isn't so easy for people to do at an instinctual level.

Even assuming we did give up and all sit down and try to talk to each other, what do we have to say? We can go around the circle asking "Who are we?" but none of us knows. We can't exactly have a conversation about much else, because we don't remember anything. No fun stories about where people came from or what life was like or who put us here. We could talk about the journal, or the dream, and maybe realize we're old and supposedly powerful - but what good does that do us if we're trapped?

It's a neat experiment, for sure. Traditionally it is give and take between ST and players. ST provides something, players poke at it, ST reacts and provides something else, players react, etc. Whereas here it is almost as if you want us to run the show ourselves, through dialogue and character exposition, with minimal ST input. And that's cool. But like I said before, it hinges on having a complete character - and THAT hinges on memory, which is in the ST's hands in this case. Therefore the ST HAS to become more involved if he wants the same outcome of character exposition.

The power struggle was fun. But each of our characters are so 1-dimensional. For example, my character obeys his sister, and protects her, and wants to be close to her. That's his ENTIRE motivation in unlife, and informs ALL of his actions. So when the sister asked him to back off, he did. Now if he had memories, or another agenda he might have kept going, and violence might have ensued, which might have forced people to pick sides, etc.

My point is that with characters that are basically stats on a page right now (with no memories), a limited setting, and little direction from the ST, it is unreasonable to expect an all-star performance. It's been fun though (and a valuable roleplaying challenge for many of us), and it would be nice to see it evolve if it's something you're interested in continuing.

Offline Bigpaw

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 08:02:31 PM »
I think we all have had a different experience, and it's probably because we did not expect the same level of ST input at the same time / level.

As for me, I expected more leeway in character creation, and tried to use it. I've been given stats, and tried to come up with a character that would work with it. I built a rather comprehensive character around it (or tried to, at least).
Now though, I expected more ST intervention in the cave, and I feel like I missed some feedack from the ST.
As I said, different expectations, different outcomes.

Now, I'm all for going on from wherever. I voted for the cave, because I'd rather not feel a deus-ex-machina came and released us. I'd rather struggle, and check again what we may have missed. But maybe that's just me :)
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Offline Isador

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 11:20:33 PM »
I wanted to post earlier but i got distracted by this and started doing that and started watching...well, you know how it goes. Thankfully Void has saved me the effort of typing down my opinion because mine is pretty much the same as his.  It's hard to rp a believable character when the ST is not expecting you to focus on escaping from the Tomb of Doom (as it shall henseforth be known as).

Plus, it's hard to explore a character that has no substance. All we know about our characters is their demeanor, nature and attributes. That's it. Void and me had it easiest knowing that at least we were brother and sister (and okay, malavis' character might be insane but has a lot more to work with than the rest of us!) but lets be honest, that's not a whole lot to go on.

While the system for random disciplines is awesome and the progression in stages is epic as well, our characters still lack that one thing that defines people, sometimes more than anything else. Memory. Memory shapes people by painting their image of the world around them, the people they know and most importantly, themselves.

SO. There were two ways i thought we could do this.

The first was the one that i was expecting, namely that each character sheet (or at least, each character sheet that had been selected during the start of the chron) had an attached history. Didn't even have to be anything grand or epic or whatever, but a history nonetheless. I was expecting the ST to essentially feed us snippets of memory during the game based on this character background (which only the ST knows of) to give us the neccesary filling of a personality with each character, to make them not feel like blank slates. This unfortunately wasn't the case.

The second way i thought we would use was each player filling in the blanks on their own. This would make things a bit more chaotic as each player would have to come up with something and the ST would have to aprove of it etc etc etc, and it would probably give away too much of the character's backgrounds and take away the whole mystery of it, as essentially, the player is making up the mystery as we go along. Though i'll be very honest here, i was afraid that you (aydoo) would not agree with me if i tried to go this road. Primarily because of the many sacrastic "Would your character know that?" questions you shot in my way when i brought up something from the chron on MSN. Thinking about that i'd have to say "well my character has amnesia so no, i cant act on memories i dont remember even if i came up with a background myself."


So to the point in the chronicle where we are now! We've made introductions, people are likely a little wary of eachother, what now? Well i can tell that there's three primary ways we can go.

Deux ex Machina. No one likes it but some writers still use it, through some divine miracle the whole mess that is currently a bunch of very ancient vampires stuck in a tomb gets sorted out. Maybe it's a powerful mage doing a summoning, maybe caine comes and hands us a shovel, or some Black Spiral Dancers break into our cave and go "HEY THIS AINT MILWAUKEE!" It's not believable to do this and for that reason alone, i implore everyone NOT to go for any option that implies a Deux ex Machina.

Second option. We escape, through logical means. Maybe one of us finds a hidden passage that leads out, maybe some minions that belonged to the Sabbat we gutted suddenly realise their bosses arent coming back out and decide to try and dig them up. Fuck, maybe even the police or worse hunters heard the commotion and are now coming to sow us all a new royal pair of buttcheeks on our asses. This will lead our vamps to either find their way into the modern world or die in the attempt. Intrigue ensues!

Last option. We remain in the cave. Not a favorite of mine but if it happends, i'll work with it. While the (futile) search to escape continues and we get to know eachoter better, there's one little problem which will certainly rear it's ugly head. Blood. It's the second night and already a few of us will start to feel the strain of hunger. In the end if it's not the tomb that gets us, or the wraiths (or number 15), it'll be the beast. One by one we'll succumb to frenzy, most likely diablarize eachother untill there's one or two left, and then go back into torpor. That would probably be the end of the chronicle.


So i take it that leaves my vote...well, i choose to abstain from voting. I'll be honest (once more) i dont really care what way the chronicle takes, i just want the chance to continue rping the character i have. Even if she feels like a blank slate now, the experience of what will undoubtedly happen will fill in the empty place where memory used to be.

Offline Aydoo

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2011, 03:39:10 AM »
Let me put it this way. If you guys won't vote, then there won't be a game. This is about cooperation. If you don't want to cooperate well, then why are we even here?

Quote
The second way i thought we would use was each player filling in the blanks on their own. This would make things a bit more chaotic as each player would have to come up with something and the ST would have to aprove of it etc etc etc, and it would probably give away too much of the character's backgrounds and take away the whole mystery of it, as essentially, the player is making up the mystery as we go along. Though i'll be very honest here, i was afraid that you (aydoo) would not agree with me if i tried to go this road. Primarily because of the many sacrastic "Would your character know that?" questions you shot in my way when i brought up something from the chron on MSN. Thinking about that i'd have to say "well my character has amnesia so no, i cant act on memories i dont remember even if i came up with a background myself."

I was taken a piss at all the repetitive questions you kept asking me. I was trying to get you to explore it in character rather than keep asking me for OOC knowledge. You were also playing a very young and immature character in a very adult way. I kept telling you to use what was presented. The characters DO have certain memories, they characters HAVE experienced certain things, and its been presented in the narrative.

I'm honestly really disappointed. It seems about half of you just missed the point entirely. I'm also quite annoyed and the complaints against the lack of narrative. It shows me that you either skimmed over everything that has gone on so far, and half ass posted, or just did not read anything. Just because I didn't post every two seconds making reactions didn't mean I wasn't allowing narrative to flow through other characters. Have you deciphered any of what Malavis' character has brought to the table? You do know that while he put it in his own way, alot of his actions and thoughts were narrative that was filtered through him?

This was supposed to be about exploring your character's personality. About setting up how your characters would respond to each other, make those first impression introductions, and get into the skin of the character. This is and has ALWAYS been independant to any history, or the world around the character. You can easily play out a dynamic and interesting character with just a Nature and Demeanor.

Using Bigpaw as an example again. He has gone and thuroughly created a concept he likes for his character. I wholey approve of it as well, even though it is quite a bit different that I imagined myself. He took the limited ammount of information given about the character, and molded something around it to make it his own. This is what I was hoping everyone would do.

Malavis settled and created a very compelling concept for his character as well straight out the door. While he has at least, to me set up what and where from his life before, he has quite the personality.

I saw from Rad an interesting display and use of what he was given. I beleive he has just as much concept as Bigpaw for who is character might have been.


Offline Radical21

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2011, 03:59:11 AM »
I established the setting, I established the motive, I established a history, and even touched upon it multiple times.

I agree with Void and he pretty much said what I myself intended to say.

While its true that you did give an exposition about the old gods it was unclear how much of it we were actually allowed to have our characters "remember" or even improvise upon in reaction to that prose so I assumed none to very little.

As for character motivation, the motivation I'v seen there was :
-Survival.
-Trying to please the old gods? why? I don't know...my character doesn't remember except knowing that the old gods were important somehow.
-Trying to gain information towards an undefined goal (for the scholars in the group)

The method they would use to try to remember and gain information is very vague when it comes to amnesia because we as players cannot by ourselves assess what would or wouldn't trigger recall of memories in the Character we portray. (Or we could and you did not tell us we were allowed to)

Of all of these Survival is probably the most Coherent motivation. and even if you look at the world as this Giant box, many humans are still trying to go to into space/imagination/astral plane/the unknown or even suicide to try and find a way out.

Quote
Have you deciphered any of what Malavis' character has brought to the table? You do know that while he put it in his own way, alot of his actions and thoughts were narrative that was filtered through him?
Really I thought that IC wise a character needs some academic background in cryptography or psycho analysis to understand any of that, provided that to begin with they didn't dismiss it all as some demented split personality rambling.
Occult could also help but really depends on how much you allow characters to know about WoD IC...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 04:14:03 AM by Radical21 »

Offline Malavis

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2011, 04:17:41 AM »
I think those of us who refrained from voting did so because we're HOPING you have a story in mind beyond tonight- and we don't want to send things down a path that you didn't want to go down in an attempt to try to please us. I think we're all down for wherever the storyline is going to go naturally.

You said yourself that the voting was just to see what we wanted :) I am voting for "Whatever you initially planned" :)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 04:19:37 AM by Malavis »

Offline Aydoo

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2011, 04:34:39 AM »
I do have something planned, but reguardless a vote needs to be counted above.

Quote
Realistically though, we've only been awake for a few hours, in a dark tomb with caved in sections.

You guys were awake for an entire night, but you wouldn't know otherwise because there is nothing to base the passage of the ammount of time on. Well other than the watch that Malavis stole away.



One of the things I wanted to see was the learning and use of tools. Bigpaw I think it was, tried to do it with the flashlight. Where he examined it in a roleplay sense, tried to make what of it that he could, then after exposition, rolled to see what stats would say, to a minor effect. Coming up with the idea that it was a very effective weapon rather than a lighting tool. Its a pity that it was out of context to where the flashlight actually was, and had to be retconned out.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 04:39:46 AM by Aydoo »

Offline Friktion

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2011, 03:10:22 AM »
Good lord that was a lot of reading.  My patience has been suffering lately, so I took one look at the wall of text and thought to myself, "later."  Anyway, I do have some thoughts on this subject.  I cannot speak on behalf of any other player, but here's my point of view.

I played my character solely on his virtues, attributes, and nature/demeanor.  I did not build a back-story or history for my character as I simply do not have enough information to do so.  I know my character's personality, but I do not know what his personality has gotten him in the past.

As for his present predicament.  I agree with Malavis that escape is my character's first priority.  He does not feel safe and would enjoy being somewhere else.  However, as escape seems to (pardon the pun) escape his grasp, the next course of action is... continue to try to escape.  I like the idea of self-discovery, however my character (and perhaps me as a player) is unable to do so without an outside of event. 

My character's personality is more reactive than active.

Lastly, as a follower of humanity (hopefully that's not a spoiler) my character would act as a basic human being.  The downward spiral will be interesting to witness as his thirst for sustenance outweighs his moral notions of not harming others.

Offline Aydoo

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Re: Scene Two Poll
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 04:50:28 PM »
Now that everyone has been able to comment, vote, and say their piece, we can move on. :>

 

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