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General Category => Featured Articles => Topic started by: Caine on September 24, 2010, 03:24:33 AM

Title: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Caine on September 24, 2010, 03:24:33 AM
i'm new here but already read almost all topic in this forum but...
the fact is:
today started TGM event and i cant see nothing new about WOD MMO!
i'm too much excited with the game and i cant wait anymore for news! =D
created this topic to people post the news from TGM event, feel free to share some information about what's going on in the event, especially about WOD MMO!
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 24, 2010, 03:33:30 AM
Burgermeister01 is at the event with a full press pass and I suspect nothing has been announced yet because he hasn't notified us. We'll keep you posted though. :bite:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 24, 2010, 04:36:14 AM
I'm following it by twitter.
http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23grandmasquerade (http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23grandmasquerade)

Still 16h until darkness is revealed.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 24, 2010, 04:44:52 AM
I'm following it by twitter.
http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23grandmasquerade (http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23grandmasquerade)

Still 16h until darkness is revealed.

Thanks, that's sooooo much better than our automatic news update service....  :taunt:

https://www.planetvampire.com/modules/TGMNews (https://www.planetvampire.com/modules/TGMNews)


Kidding aside, I'm beside myself with excitement right now.  :javokis:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: _username on September 24, 2010, 05:07:48 AM
Bah.  This is honestly the first time I've ever "followed" anyone/anything on Twitter.  :facepalm:

Oh well.... :thanku:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Enerzeal on September 24, 2010, 10:05:20 AM
Even civ 5 isnt taking away my attention, ive got the countdown on my second monitor.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Nigama on September 24, 2010, 11:47:35 AM
I spent last night searching the internet for posts from anyone who had been at the Werewolf Retrospective.  :(  Sadly, did not find anything.  Did see a bunch of pics tho of the Roosevelt.

Well...  it won't be long now.  And we should have some blood of substance by Sunday when Berg gets home.

Nigama
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Donan on September 24, 2010, 12:44:51 PM
I'm practically salivating at the prospect of WoD and werewolf news, and keeping a far too close watch on the countdown.  It's just a great shame there hasn't been any real press coverage yet.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 24, 2010, 01:14:53 PM
Apparently they are video recording everything. We just have to be patient.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Caine on September 24, 2010, 02:31:09 PM
let's see what's going to happen today in TGM... they're making me nervous!
 hehehe!

:irritated:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Donan on September 24, 2010, 07:07:18 PM
Well, the countdown's ended. ^^  Not what I was hoping to see come up though.  Mph.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 24, 2010, 10:49:36 PM
1h15min still left if you set your clock to New Orleans time.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 24, 2010, 11:57:24 PM
Less than 5 minutes now!


EDIT: At least we are not the only ones waiting!
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/728/ez8p.jpg)

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 12:05:52 AM
  eddyfate  Eddy Webb
Reminder: people at #grandmasquerade, post news with the GM tag. Those not at GM, follow the tag. I'm not going to be able to post MMO news.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 12:07:02 AM
http://yfrog.com/041h7z (http://yfrog.com/041h7z)
Video!

I hope somebody keep doing that.
Or at least pics.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 12:12:40 AM
And more (http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg838/scaled.php?tn=0&server=838&filename=lzrt.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640) pics (http://web5.twitpic.com/img/167305921-bb11e5981dc6a5ca1ab41c24ba0ef399.4c9d2d70-full.jpg)! here's another one (http://static.ow.ly/photos/normal/455f.jpg) too.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Reap on September 25, 2010, 12:15:20 AM
>.> Forget pics.

Infosssssss
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 12:18:12 AM
>.> Forget pics.

Infosssssss
No info so far other than Eddy Webb confirming what's obvious: this is going to be about the WoD MMO!
Twitter (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23grandmasquerade) is going slow now. The panel has started, with a city representative and everything! Hmmmm. NOLA as one of the WoD MMO cities? But so far nothing new.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Reap on September 25, 2010, 12:23:48 AM
The main thing I want to know. Is it just vamps or will it be werewolves and mages too?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
Expect announcement and grand lines, but not too many specifics. Tomorrow we also be a big day:

Grand Masquerade, Crescent City Ballroom - Saturday Noon – 1:00pm:The development team from the upcoming World of Darkness MMO describe their favorite moments from the World of Darkness, giving you a sneak peek behind the inspiration for the game....

Saturday 2:00pm – 3:00pm This is a rare opportunity to voice your feed...back directly to the development team of the upcoming World of Darkness MMO. Step up and tell them what you want to see in the World of Darkness game – an exclusive opportunity for all Grand Masquerade attendees!
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 12:33:16 AM
I'm just imagining now how easy would it be to spread false news on twitter and mess with everyone.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 12:41:21 AM
Eventually, WW's entire catalog (which means oWoD too) avalaible on PoD at drivethrurpg.com. That was expected, and this is a great chance for me to finally acquire Wraith: the Great War.

Looks like they are introducing the WoD MMO right NOW.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 12:44:16 AM
Please aliens if you exist teletransport me to New Orleans NOW!
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 12:50:13 AM
NOLAWoD2010 "The have been working on this game behind closed doors for 3 years! It's still got a way to go. #grandmasquerade"

Oh, well... Nothing new here either.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 12:55:02 AM
  flamesrising  Flames Rising
World of Darkness MMO is Vampire: the Masquerade! #GrandMasquerade

Z... O... M... G....
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 12:56:15 AM
  criticalhits  Gato, CH News Robot
World of Darkness MMO will launch at earliest 2012, be only Vampire: The Masquerade (AKA Old World of Darkness) #grandmasquerade
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 12:56:36 AM
Ok, that's kinda lame [/nWoDfanboy]
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 12:58:24 AM
Only vampires.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 01:00:11 AM
Even lamer. I assume they'll eventually add oWoD werewolves, but...
Not a happy night for me. Let's just say that.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 01:02:11 AM
They messed with my head right now.

I desperately need a detailed explanation on this.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Seifer on September 25, 2010, 01:03:19 AM
OOOOOOOOOOOhoooooooooooooooooooo!

oWOD, that was a pleasant surprise! Although vampires only is a bummer I guess.

Oh, also hello (first post).
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 01:06:31 AM
I feel sorry for the werewolf and mage fans.

But I liked both news, it would be hard to do all 3 well.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 01:07:54 AM
They messed with my head right now.

I desperately need a detailed explanation on this.
Not that hard to explain, really. Masquerade is far more popular than Requiem. I was under the impression that CCP would choose to support their current gameline, but guess I was completely wrong. Well! I still expect this to be a great MMO, that's for sure. And like this one poster at RPG.net said "Requiem has too many choices for those used to choosing between Human or Orc."
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 01:10:35 AM
They messed with my head right now.

I desperately need a detailed explanation on this.
Not that hard to explain, really. Masquerade is far more popular than Requiem. I was under the impression that CCP would choose to support their current gameline, but guess I was completely wrong. Well! I still expect this to be a great MMO, that's for sure. And like this one poster at RPG.net said "Requiem has too many choices for those used to choosing between Human or Orc."

Actually I wasn't talking about the reason it's oWoD but about the system. What about JA's blog on covenants?
I think it will not be exactly oWoD.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 01:21:13 AM
And here's the VIDEO!
World of Darkness (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Wsf31WIdY#)
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 01:28:07 AM
UmbralEchoes "WoDO going to focus on mystery, power, romance, danger. Three types of play: sandbox, theme park, coffee shop. #grandmasquerade"

This sounds pretty awesome, actually.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 01:28:47 AM
Quote
WoDO going to focus on mystery, power, romance, danger. Three types of play: sandbox, theme park, coffee shop.

144 characters isn't enough!

Please, no static quests.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 01:48:55 AM
I love it - though I hope they dont theme it too much towards "Final nights" stuff. Would have prefered that they'd keep some Requiem elements, but what the hell...

I never liked the "imminent doom" feel of OWOD, and I prefered BP over Gens, and I prefered the various kinds of supers (mages, weres, vamps) on rather even footing like in NWOD. But Ill roll with it.

Im sure we'll still encounter mages and Weres in WOD, just wont be able to play them.

"It all begins when you die" Im happy.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 01:52:40 AM
I don't know what to think. I just  need more news.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: _username on September 25, 2010, 01:52:45 AM
In hindsight, the Darkness Revealed (http://www.thegrandmasquerade.com/event/darkness_revealed.html) taglines described VtM all along, not nWoD.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 02:01:12 AM
I know what sandbox gameplay is.

Theme park... not so much, though I guess I have a faint idea, would appreciate if people could elaborate.

Coffee Shop you've totally lost me. That means social interactions in pleasant settings I guess?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 25, 2010, 02:02:35 AM
It looks like that's pretty much everything for tonight! Masquerade is back, the video is pretty cool and there will be "game modes". No idea of what that means, but somehow it makes me salivate!

Still, it's oWoD. They made it look more Requiem-ish, but it's oWoD. If you don't mind, I'll go join the ranks of dissapointed nWoD players now.  :razz:



(No, not really, game looks amazing. But they better add some werewolves soon!)

In hindsight, the Darkness Revealed (http://www.thegrandmasquerade.com/event/darkness_revealed.html) taglines described VtM all along, not nWoD.
In hindsight, the CCP parties organized were set in "the Succubus Club", this big event was called "the Grand Masquerade", the Camarilla being allowed to run Masquerade LARPs again... Makes you feel a little bit dumb, to be honest!  :facepalm:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on September 25, 2010, 02:05:30 AM
Hm... Not sure I like that - that means we're going to see generations return, and with it the power player diablerists...
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 02:08:18 AM
Hm... Not sure I like that - that means we're going to see generations return, and with it the power player diablerists...

In all honestly, same thing in Requiem. No game I ever played allowed my character to take advantage of "wait 50 years for your blood to power up".

BP was brought either with XP or diablerie.

Im still hoping they cherry pick ideas from nWOD and fix it with oWOD. For instance, I would like it to be possible for active players to lower their gen through large XP expenditures after they've played a long time. Could be a sort of veteran-reward, even? Or maybe not. Maybe we'll all be 13th gen forever.   :comegetsome:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on September 25, 2010, 02:12:02 AM
I wonder if it'll follow the same stories as explored in the old world?  If so, that would mean a lot of the same for veterans of the game...
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Don Strudel on September 25, 2010, 02:15:40 AM
Should I be sad that the nWoD is going be canceled soon and oWoD revived and expanded? I want to cry... but I just can't make the tears come.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 02:15:50 AM
Im sitting on my toilet, refreshing the twitter feed with my ipad.  :thanku:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 03:01:18 AM
I hope it is requiem with a masquerade cover.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Nigama on September 25, 2010, 03:12:58 AM
Huge oWoD fan, VERY happy at the news. 

If they keep one thing from Requiem I hope it's the differentiation of factions (instead of the usual Cam vs Sabbat vs Anarch setup they have the newer version with many different factions to join with each city having it's own makeup).  Fog of Ages and BP are wastes of space, and FoA kills a ton of possible creative campaign ideas.  I obviously have many other bones to pick with the nWoD (Changeling excluded, despite my happyness I'm already a bit sad I won't get to play an MMO version of the nWoD Changeling, even if it was 5 years down the road), but it's neither the time nor place.

It *is* the time and place for celebrations and happiness!  *pops the bubbly*  Konpai!

One last...  I was disappointed in the video/reveal.  We saw *no* in game footage, it was essentially a hype piece.  Still...  we got a date and we got quite a bit more info, so I'm satiated...  for now.  My stomach will rumble again before 2011. hahaha

Nigama
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 03:23:48 AM
Dont worry there are two big, two-hour panels today where the staff will talk about their inspirations for the game and take questions and suggestions.

Tonights just appetizers. I expect tomorrow to be more enlightening.

But with Incarna still incomplete, Im not surprised we saw no in-game footage. Im also cautiously optimistic at best about the release date. On Twitter, this official bit was just posted:

"White Wolf News   White_Wolf_News OMG the MMO is Masquerade! Early 2012! #Grandmasquerade"

I have serious doubts with "early" 2012. Id be happy to be playing the beta exactly two years from tonight.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 03:43:24 AM
World of Darkness (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Wsf31WIdY&feature=player_embedded#)

"You won't believe me. In fact, I shouldn't tell you. Some secrets are best taken to the grave. They're all around us. They control everything. They've always been here, waging their secret wars - devouring everything that stands in their way.

Cast out of Eden, their souls discarded, their flesh made immortal. Each a fount of undying power to quench their boundless appetite. We belong to them.

Tonight, I was taken. They will come for you. It all begins when you die."
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 25, 2010, 03:50:13 AM
Burgermeister called me tonight while I was at work and I spoke with him for a few minutes. He relayed much of the same info, Masquerade not Requiem. He said when that was announced there was a loud roar of applause. He also sent me a video but my cell is crappy, I think it's the same trailer but I'll check it out in a bit. He's having a blast said most of the Q&A would be tomorrow. He's taken a lot of pics too. I won't be hearing from him again until Sunday because tomorrow night I'm working and he'll be drinking  :alcoholic:  He's taken more notes and may email me using his cell before we speak again.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: _username on September 25, 2010, 04:13:33 AM
Cool.  I think it's obvious that they'll take the lessons learned from both oWoD and nWoD and apply them towards balancing the game mechanics and picking the best from both game lines.  Also, remember how the quality of artwork and presentation jumped up two or three notches between oWoD and nWoD?  The same people who brought about that change are the ones directing the look and feel of the MMO.  I think we can expect great things in the way of theme and mood.

Although I was expecting the MMO to be Requiem all the way, I'm pleasantly surprised to see them take the direction that they have.  I was on the front lines of the "of course it will be nWoD; you're dumb/naive for thinking they'll revive oWoD for the MMO" crowd, and for that...I have egg on my face.  Also, I am encouraged by the idea that my dozens and dozens of oWoD books may once again see occasional use!
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 25, 2010, 04:19:39 AM
One of the complaints people did have about Masquerade was towards the end there were so many clans and disciplines that everything got watered down. Burgermeister said they didn't address that, we may get more info tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 04:49:37 AM
One of the complaints people did have about Masquerade was towards the end there were so many clans and disciplines that everything got watered down. Burgermeister said they didn't address that, we may get more info tomorrow.

Well that bloat is unlikely to translate into an initial release, though we may see it later. By their nature, MMOs start with a certain, somewhat limit amount of content, that grows into an intimidating bloat of stuff after a few expansions, usually. Its clear they wont be able to fit everything in on day 1. It may feel like the early days of VtM without many supplements, and I hope with notions from VtR sprinkled over the cake.

Another complaint I recall was that the Metaplot of the OWOD was too rigid for creative STing. Well MMOs by their nature are a bit rigid and tell the same plot to everyone. Then a good metaplot becomes more important than VTR-like flexibility.

Guess theres no zealot like a convert, because Im really started to like this. I wont shed a blood tear over the Predator Taint or the Fog of Ages, thats for sure.

This also immensely lowers the odds that the game be confined to one large city, a distintly nWoDish concept. OWOD took part all over the world, with Kindred flying around in private planes and a handful even staying active permanantly by always staying in the shadow of the Earth. I dunno HOW theyll make it work, but they could plausibly give us playgrounds all over the world.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 25, 2010, 04:55:44 AM
Last thing I remember from my convo with BM (again, I was at work and working while talking) was that at least some old Masquerade books will be put back in print and for sale again.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: _username on September 25, 2010, 05:08:24 AM
Another complaint I recall was that the Metaplot of the OWOD was too rigid for creative STing. Well MMOs by their nature are a bit rigid and tell the same plot to everyone. Then a good metaplot becomes more important than VTR-like flexibility.
You hit the nail on the head, bro.  I think VtR will remain popular as a LARP/tabletop platform, but VtM may see a second Renaissance through the MMO (and probably a boost to its tabletop fans, too).  I've always felt that VtM was a better read, but VtR made for a better Storytelling platform.
Guess theres no zealot like a convert, because Im really started to like this. I wont shed a blood tear over the Predator Taint or the Fog of Ages, thats for sure.
As above, PT and FoA were very nuanced concepts, requiring a personal touch in order to work.  Without that personal touch (with both participants willing to do a little RP) it was a waste of time.  With any luck, this will translate into an MMO interface that ditches the traditional bullshit approach of having "name, clan, generation" floating over everybody's head.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 25, 2010, 06:24:29 AM
I didn't thought it was possible but the announcement put more doubts in my head than I already had.

I'm a little afraid because of VtM mechanical problems and the reference of themepark.

I will wait, for now I don't have a opinion if I think that was a good or bad choice.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Donan on September 25, 2010, 07:43:42 AM
I don't mind VtM, I enjoyed the settings in the video games and I think it'll be good if they do well, though I've never played it as a tabletop.

What disapoints me is no werewolves or mages.  :(
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: kabatta on September 25, 2010, 08:14:26 AM
Oh, my god. I am soo happy.  :drink:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Spiritbw on September 25, 2010, 09:47:45 AM
Huge oWoD fan, VERY happy at the news. 

Ditto here.  I know pretty much my entrie gaming circle will be cheering at the news.  If only becuase this should breath some like into the old stuff.  I do hope some of the LARP books get a reprint.  Our copies are slowly starting to disitigrate with age and use.

I deffinatly wasn't expecting Old World of Darkness, I was really expecting ti would be NWoD stuff and I can honestly say my jaw dropped when it clicked in my mind they were talking Masqurade rather than Requim.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: non_applicable on September 25, 2010, 12:09:26 PM
I was expecting new world, but frankly this is a win-win for me, since I'd be happy for either, so to hear it's oWoD is a pleasant surprise!
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Koshea on September 25, 2010, 01:09:17 PM
My biggest concern is that by making it Masquerade it seems to take away the option of ever seeing mages or werewolves added to the mix. Why are they calling it world of darkness if it's just going to be vampires now or ever?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 01:20:08 PM
Well actually both Mages and Werewolves were there in oWOD too, with their own game lines.

Only, unlike in NWOD, they were considerably more powerful than Kindred, making crossovers iffy.

This being said, Im sure they can tweak whatever needs to to include them if they want to in the future. Obviously, in the meantime, both can still exist in the form of NPCs.

And really, theyll always pick names for visibility or marketing reasons. "World of Darkness" sounds cool and sounds less niche than "Vampire the Masquerade Online"
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 25, 2010, 01:46:19 PM
I remain optimistic that it would be a mixed Masquerade-Requiem:

That is NWoD's System with Vanilla Masquerade's Settings and Clans

What I'm concerned about on the other hand is that they choose to do Masquerade because unlike NWoD it comes with a very clear idea of a storyline and history which may lead to lame "quests" and Predetermined storylined where to me part of the whole appeal of roleplaying that makes it different than other games is choices and their consequences.
If I simply wanted a Predetermined storyline I would already pick  up any of the exsisting Singleplayer games instead

On the other hand them may have simply chosen Masquerade setting to please the VTES fans since that game is coming to a close and because Masquerade has a more clear cut idea of factions.

Still I expect Werewolves and Mages to be implamented with the mechanics of NWoD if not the storyline.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Nigama on September 25, 2010, 03:36:51 PM
I agree with those posting above.  Even tho they have announced that the MMO will be in V:tM, that does not mean they cannot cherry pick what they want to keep from V:tR OR even re-do what they feel like needs work (clans, generation).  So far as I'm concerned, that will be a new, 3rd version of the WoD, just like we all discussed loooooong before the announcement.  However, when we set mechanics aside, which games did I enjoy more thematically and in terms of setting?  The entire oWoD line except Chaneling which I find the nWoD version far more engaging. 

Nigama 
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on September 25, 2010, 03:59:43 PM
Does anyone have any idea of how the character progression is going to be handled? Is it going to be WoW style of grabbing all quests in the area and grinding to 'max level', or is it going to be something akin to Eve with skill progression over time? (Which based on the nature of the charaters we will be playing just seems to make far more sense)

Or is this one of the many questions going to be asked at the Q&A later?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Spiritbw on September 25, 2010, 04:41:47 PM
Oh it will probably be asked at the Q&A later.

Still, given this is CCP making this I expect it to be the least like WoW of any MMO to hit the market.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Caine on September 25, 2010, 05:09:49 PM
I don't mind VtM, I enjoyed the settings in the video games and I think it'll be good if they do well, though I've never played it as a tabletop.

What disapoints me is no werewolves or mages.  :(

i'm really really really REALLY desapointed about the fact we wont be able to play with the other World Of Darkness creatures (Werewolfs, Mages, Hunters, etc)....
this "World Of Darkness" MMO game would be named "Vampire The Masquerade Online" for christ sakes!!!!
The World Of Darkness in my concern is a place that all the "darkness" creatures interacts between them, each "race" defending your own interests, human controlled!
So... all players gonna be vampire, everyone fighting only for the vampires objectives and interests.... soooooo limited!

Good Job CCP... hope that you have sucessful in this... =(
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 25, 2010, 05:28:33 PM
Not that I want to be speculative but many MMO's have expansions, such as WoW...
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Caine on September 25, 2010, 05:47:02 PM
Not that I want to be speculative but many MMO's have expansions, such as WoW...

I hope so bro... but I really think that they could put at least 1 more "race", like werewolfs or mages!
later they could launch expansions with hunters, mages, etc.... but only vampires?!
this fact makes the game too much limited, even to a first launch!
not sooo excited like I were before... but let's see what gonna happen...
man, I really like VtM gameplay, but 2 vampire games already launched (VtM Redemption and VtM Bloodlines) and i really wanted to see anything new!
People, we don't have ANY GAMES about WhiteWolf Werewolf or Mages, and they really gonna put only Vampires IN A MMO game??
WTF, cant understand that... REALLY! =(
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: kabatta on September 25, 2010, 05:50:37 PM
Think at it as a test release. Perhaps they will introduce werewolfs in the future.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on September 25, 2010, 06:03:44 PM
Sounds like a logical decision to me, make the game with immediate appeal to its largest / possible fanbase (Vampies) whilst retaining the design capability to expand in the future.  I have no doubt we'll see our furry friends and merlinites in the future ^.^
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Spiritbw on September 25, 2010, 06:50:16 PM
I expect Mage will be the last of the races to be added, fi ever.  OWoD Mage was a bitch to try and do as a LARP mainly because the magic system was so adaptable.  The NWoD made made the magic system a bit better, but it might still be a bit of a trock.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Melanieshaman on September 25, 2010, 07:03:10 PM
I too am upset that it's going to be only vamps at release, for I am not much of a fan of vamps.  When I first heard about this game awhile back, all I thought of was "ooohhhh Can I play a werewolf?"  I have a huge desire to play a wolf, and it is my totem spirit/animal.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 25, 2010, 07:51:16 PM
I too am upset that it's going to be only vamps at release, for I am not much of a fan of vamps.  When I first heard about this game awhile back, all I thought of was "ooohhhh Can I play a werewolf?"  I have a huge desire to play a wolf, and it is my totem spirit/animal.

A Vampire can also turn into a wolf using Protean discipline(Shape of the Beast)...
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Donan on September 25, 2010, 07:56:13 PM
Being able to turn into a wolf isn't what makes you a werewolf in either WoD though.  It's the tribes and culture and your duties.  It's more then just an unqiue power, it's who and what you are.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 25, 2010, 07:59:20 PM
Being able to turn into a wolf isn't what makes you a werewolf in either WoD though.

I didn't say it was, I said it allows you to play as a Wolf. How far you take it beyond that really depends on you and the character you are playing.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 25, 2010, 10:35:52 PM
Had to work all day even tho its Saturday :( Just wondering, did anyone find a synthesis of any info we might have gotten from the two MMO Panels this afternoon? I didnt get to start looking yet.

Edit: well, glancing at the Twitter feed it seems few people wrote anything about the afternoon's panels. We did get this quote from a dev:

"We don't want to make a replica of what we've done in the past. We will pull from all of it to make the best MMO we can."
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Melanieshaman on September 26, 2010, 01:29:13 AM
I too am upset that it's going to be only vamps at release, for I am not much of a fan of vamps.  When I first heard about this game awhile back, all I thought of was "ooohhhh Can I play a werewolf?"  I have a huge desire to play a wolf, and it is my totem spirit/animal.

A Vampire can also turn into a wolf using Protean discipline(Shape of the Beast)...

I know, but turning into a wolf is not being a werewolf, sorry if i confused you, but i call werewolves wolfs in this and most instances.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Melanieshaman on September 26, 2010, 01:32:26 AM
Being able to turn into a wolf isn't what makes you a werewolf in either WoD though.  It's the tribes and culture and your duties.  It's more then just an unqiue power, it's who and what you are.

This is exactly why I love (were) wolves.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Seifer on September 26, 2010, 01:48:53 AM
Being able to turn into a wolf isn't what makes you a werewolf in either WoD though.  It's the tribes and culture and your duties.  It's more then just an unqiue power, it's who and what you are.

This is exactly why I love (were) wolves.

This is why we all love werewolves. Now having said that I can live without werewolves at launch cause I want to experience the Vampire stuff as well. But I really hope that they implement the garou at some point or else the world of darkness will be incomplete.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Melanieshaman on September 26, 2010, 02:55:16 AM
Being able to turn into a wolf isn't what makes you a werewolf in either WoD though.  It's the tribes and culture and your duties.  It's more then just an unqiue power, it's who and what you are.

This is exactly why I love (were) wolves.

This is why we all love werewolves. Now having said that I can live without werewolves at launch cause I want to experience the Vampire stuff as well. But I really hope that they implement the garou at some point or else the world of darkness will be incomplete.

No, i know... I just meant it's not about turning into a wolf... and I guess it would be ok as long as the first expansion gives me a full Garou experience.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Spiritbw on September 26, 2010, 07:05:50 AM
Switching from things furry to the events at hand....don't suppose there has been any news from the panels?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 26, 2010, 09:51:34 AM
Not really, people are just retweeting the trailer or stuff from the succubus club. Will have to wait until after to hear about the panels I think
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Saintly pants on September 26, 2010, 10:30:09 AM
Never expected it to be Masquerade! Does that mean i might eventually be able to play a three eyed misunderstood one? Even tough it will take many years of patches before anything other then cookie cutter clans are allowed.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 26, 2010, 11:04:08 AM
Never expected it to be Masquerade! Does that mean i might eventually be able to play a three eyed misunderstood one? Even tough it will take many years of patches before anything other then cookie cutter clans are allowed.

You can always put it in a third eye using fleshcrafting....

sorry couldn't resist.

I think alot of it depends on how rigid is the game going to be about choice of factions because if you can just choose Anarch-Sabbat-Camarilla I predict we will see alot of Tremere Antitribu because people want to be "Special".

If Diablery is an option in the game(probably alot more harsh on the consequences of it if it is) you can count on your Salubri getting drinked down shortly after creation because they are such a rare vintage and thier unique discipline is also nice.

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Saintly pants on September 26, 2010, 11:19:32 AM
Wile it would certainly have to be possible to steal the vitae of other players, it should be a little harder to pull of then "Oh there is a rare juicebag! I just walk up to it and press the feed button!"  :bite:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Gerek on September 26, 2010, 03:24:07 PM
Probably would have to "weaken" through combat before any kind of feeding could be done on tougher opponents/players.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 26, 2010, 04:09:34 PM
Nם, all it really takes is a 10 on a stake to the heart dice roll
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: kabatta on September 26, 2010, 05:00:41 PM
So no update on the Q&A session?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on September 26, 2010, 05:32:46 PM
Not as of yet from the looks of things.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Spiritbw on September 26, 2010, 05:49:04 PM
BLeh, talking on another forum we got one guy very much trying to make WoW with Fangs out of this.  He keeps trying to shoehorn the clans into specific classes.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Ashlar on September 26, 2010, 07:48:29 PM
Hi and nice to meet you all.

I didn't see it coming either, the MMO being based on Vampire, The Masquerade.

But we really don't know anything yet, and I want to bring something to your attention, which I think will confirm that the MMO being Masquerade based means little right now.

The developer Russell Bailey explained the recent news about the MMO, in a topic on the white wolf forums:
http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/p/36456/760679.aspx#760679 (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/p/36456/760679.aspx#760679)

Quote
When White Wolf sat down to create Vampire: The Requiem, the goal was to create the best possible face-to-face roleplaying game. The lessons learned about setting, story and mechanics from thirteen years of constant experimentation, exploration, and development were brought to bear on creating The World of Darkness.


We've been developing from that vision for six years, and it kicks ass. At this point, I've given four or five years of my life to the game. Bled for it, even, though not in a very exciting way. I'm in love.


We don't see the two generations of Vampire as competing right now. Vampire: The Requiem remains a top notch tabletop roleplaying game. World of Darkness will be a top-notch virtual world. They're both based on Vampire: The Masquerade, but their needs are different.


I can't really talk about the MMO. But I can tell you that the team is led by creators of the original game, as well as those of EVE Online. If you've got a friend at Grand Masquerade, have him thank our producer, Chris McDonough, who, among many other things, invented clans. We have Chris, Rich Thomas, and other people who helped create the first World of Darkness and the current one on board. The team that's brought you Requiem -- Justin, Eddy, and myself included, are also working on World of Darkness.


White Wolf has always been about creating the best tools for you to tell your stories. And that's exactly what we're going to keep doing.

CCP will use the Masquerade system and probably will adapt it to the virtual media. The MMO being based off OWoD will have no effect on the Pen and Paper RPG.

I posted this information on shadownessence, under another username, so it's a big ctrl+c.

And sorry for the poor english, it's not my first language.

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 26, 2010, 08:27:34 PM
Welcome to the Forum Ashlar

I think Russel's closing statement:
Quote
White Wolf has always been about creating the best tools for you to tell your stories. And that's exactly what we're going to keep doing
.
is the important one for me because even though its not really true for VTMB , it is true for VTMR and so I hope he is also thinking about what they are doing with the MMO when he is sayign that.

At this point I think no one is really concern about it affecting the PnP but some of us are still dreading the sight of this Concept turning to one of the mind numbing typical mainstream MMORPGs that litter the internet nowdays.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 26, 2010, 10:03:06 PM
Welcome Ashlar!

This is a great quote you bring us, and I hadnt seen it yet. Im more optimistic than ever about WoD than ever, it seems theyre really trying to make the best game, and arent throwing all they learned from Requiem away at all.

Spiritbw, I would be the first one disapointed if they shoehorned clans into classes. Theyre not supposed to be that. Clans guide progressions and affinities, but they shouldnt be hard limits. I hope they stick to PnP concepts like being able to pick skills and attributes untypical for your clan at no extra cost. and being able to learn out-of-clan disciplines at higher cost if you can find a teacher. The smart gangrel, the physically powerful Toreador, the Ventrue with his nose in books all the time; theyre cool. When it comes to character progression in WoD, frankly for me, it boils down to "if its not broke..."

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: _username on September 26, 2010, 10:31:15 PM
If done properly, I think the vampire Clans will be similar to the various bloodlines in Eve.  That is...

Many Caldari Achura can be found in Lonetrek, Black Rise or The Citadel.  Most of them will be highly skilled in missiles, active shield tanking and engineering.  They can often be seen in industrial ships, freighters or battleships.

Many Minmatar Brutor can be found in Heimatar.  Most of them will be highly skilled in navigation, artillery and mechanic (how else would they so expertly use duct tape to keep their ships together?).  They can often be seen in assault frigates and battlecruisers.

However...nothing requires them to do any of these things.  Most of them are simply doing it because their starting template helped set them up with skills that matched whatever activities the player gravitated towards during character creation.  At any time, any one of them can quit their current corporation, cash in all of their loyalty points, sell all of their fancy crap, trek halfway across the galaxy and do something completely different...so long as they can get a foot in the door wherever they're headed.  Sure, they'd be starting over when it comes to building relationships, establishing credibility, etc.  But there's nothing in the game mechanics stopping them.

If WoD does it right, I think a comparable level of flexibility should be possible, albeit within the confines of the character's original, unchanging nature (that is...they're still Kindred).
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 26, 2010, 11:27:22 PM
I didnt play EVE much at all, its nice to see its done like this, though. Thats exactly how I see WOD Clans!
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 26, 2010, 11:40:07 PM
  He keeps trying to shoehorn the clans into specific classes.

Too late for that, In Requiem at least Clans are already mildly regarded as classes (Starting Attribute and Discipline Bonus based on Clan). In Masquerade Clans also have unique Disciplines that may immidetly drop in the categories of Class Archetypes:
 "Thief"(Ravnos,Nosferatu),"Face"(Toreador) ,"Bruiser"(Gangrel/Brujah),"Assassin"(Assamite), "Wizard"(Tremere/Tzimisce), "Healer"(Salburi) and so on...

The good thing that makes it better than other games is that in Both Requiem and Masquerade you still have the option to ignore these archetype suggestions and take your character to a different direction without being "gimped" or whatever and your clan never dictates your progression path after creation..

There is no reason to believe that they will change that since both White-Wolf and CCP seem to have that in common.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 27, 2010, 01:50:19 AM
Thanks to Burgermeister, we have some info for you from the Q&A and some stuff we didn't get a chance to talk about the other night. I won't get much into the subjective of the email I received from him, I'm sure he'll have much more perspective to share when he gets back :rock:

-A CCP source told him they are very near the end of pre-production and is beginning full-blown production. They in fact have a PLAYABLE version of the game, although it is so rudimentary that it is not worth the effort of demoing.


- due to a licensing issues between CCP and Wizards of the Coast, they are going to be discontinuing the Vampire: the Eternal struggle collective card game. They said that the fans could however, keep the game alive, by loyally continuing to play.

- Lone Wolf  Development has been outsourced work from CCP to start generating a suite of tools to make only RP and ST easier for players that choose that venue.

- They have also hired DriveThruRPG.com to provide a 'print-to-order' service for their ENTIRE backlog of White Wolf books  and resources. That means that all the Masquerade books should be easily available again. Also, to clarify, 'print-to-order' means that when you order the book, the distributor prints up a fresh copy specifically for you, and mails it to you.

Direct MMO Stuff:

 - the game has been in development for approximately 3 years.
    - This has been slowed by keeping up with EVE
    - Preparing to develop 'Carbon technology' framework for what should provide state-of-the-art character customizations, unlike any seen in any game before, for the MMO.
    - They are particularly psyched about the customization framework. They claim they have in fact, hired a fashion consultant, to help make the system more realistic and stylish.
    - Another 1.5 years has been spent preparing the actual gameplay
   - They have increased their staff by 6 times the previous head count
   - They've put 629K man-hours into this MMO -- so far.

Regarding Coffee House, Sandbox and Themeparks that we've discussed on the forum, Burgermeister writes; "From what they said, these three spheres should be closely tied and interconnected together, essentially running the economy of blood in the game. "

The four overall themes they intended to have in the game are:
  - Mystery
  - Romance
  - Power
  - Danger

"For concrete facts, we learned that the game will be ready, by earliest, 2012. The game will be based on Vampire: the Masquerade. Specifically, in the initial release of the game, there will only be vampires as supernatural, playable characters. There will however, be elements from Werewolf, Changling, etc., likely in the form of environmental content, and NPCs."

-One of their criterias for success is to make the game as accessible as possible. Specifically they want to get women involved in the game, as well as casual players. Also, they want to maximize the amount of human interaction that happens in the game.

-They confirmed that the game will not be combat intensive (unless you choose as such). Knowing, influencing the correct people is arguable more important than being the biggest brawler.

-They will not be catering to immaturity in the game, however, they would like to see these types of offenses policed by players, rather than in-game mechanics.

"I personally offered up one of the board's suggestions of Permanent Death as a solution to controlling an otherwise glut of Kindred population within any one area. This was one of the suggestions that got applause from the audience. I also couldn't help but notice two of the content developers smirking -- I think permanent death is a serious possibility in the MMO. A lot of other fans made the same or similar suggestions. This remark also drew out a comment from the panel, suggesting that the game world  would consist of one server rather than multiple servers, after someone else suggested that some servers offer this permanent death option while others did not. (His response "Servers? What servers?") "  :chinscratch:

-They confirmed that factions and territories will almost certainly be a big part of the game.

-They confirmed that the game will definitely contains gay clubs. This is an excellent angle to cater to the gay and lesbian audience.

-They again, did confirm, that starting off there would only be Vampires, but one of the other developers also confirmed that there would be playable human classes -- although nothing specific. I only can assume he means the likes of ghouls and hunters.

-The game will be fully PvP, i.e. there may be Elysium areas, but nothing like the flagging system, as seen in PvE WoW servers.

"That is everything that I learned from that particular panel. Afterwords, I had some time with one of the developers, and managed to ring a few more details out of him:

He is supposedly working on something called 'story arcs'. He immediately realized he had probably already said too much, so you'll have to use your imagination  to determine what that would mean in the game.

He also stated that in regards to the development cycles, some disciplines simply will not be included because they are way too complicate to implement well -- specifically, Temporis."


I'll have a separate post with some pics shortly!  :drink:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 27, 2010, 02:23:03 AM
Thanks for the News update and props for Burgermeister

Sounds like its going in a good direction with Maximizing player interaction and prema-death .

Im also kind of curious about this Carbon Technology thing.

Lone Wolf Development already have some WoD related tools developed it seems
http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab&page=world_of_darkness (http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab&page=world_of_darkness)
Does it mean they are going to bundle it all together and give it for free?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Seifer on September 27, 2010, 02:25:53 AM
All these sound awesome but the fact that it's vampire only and there is no word of plans about adding other supernaturals kinda worries me. I have come to understand that CCP is the most capable MMO games production company even though I have never played EVE. Do you think that they will listen to the players and add more "races"? I mean I don't mind the fact that they are not going to be in from day one but the possibility of it never happening bothers me... a lot!
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Nigama on September 27, 2010, 02:34:00 AM
All these sound awesome but the fact that it's vampire only and there is no word of plans about adding other supernaturals kinda worries me. I have come to understand that CCP is the most capable MMO games production company even though I have never played EVE. Do you think that they will listen to the players and add more "races"? I mean I don't mind the fact that they are not going to be in from day one but the possibility of it never happening bothers me... a lot!

I give you my personal guarantee that they will add wolfs and magi later.    :cometome:

Worry not.


Nigama
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 27, 2010, 02:34:31 AM
All these sound awesome but the fact that it's vampire only and there is no word of plans about adding other supernaturals kinda worries me. I have come to understand that CCP is the most capable MMO games production company even though I have never played EVE. Do you think that they will listen to the players and add more "races"? I mean I don't mind the fact that they are not going to be in from day one but the possibility of it never happening bothers me... a lot!

Doing all the supernaturals at startup or even only three of them would almost undoubtly mean that they would get dumbed down along with their unique gameplay.
So I think CCP are making the right move by only going with one at start. means they can really focus on it and on the extensive gameplay features it relates to.
Might be that they would add Mages,Werewolves or Changlings as playable on future patches so I wouldn't lose hope, especially in light of the fact that is called World of Darkness and not Vampire: The Masquerade.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 27, 2010, 02:38:55 AM
I'm hoping Burgermeister can add some context to the tone of the developers when they said it would only be vampires. In his sentence, he said "in the initial release", that may ave been the words the CCP rep used, we'll need to see what BM has to say about it.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 27, 2010, 03:01:00 AM
https://forums.planetvampire.com/?action=media (https://forums.planetvampire.com/?action=media)

You guys able to see this? It's Burgermeister's pics from TGM uploaded to the forum's gallery feature.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: burgermeister01 on September 27, 2010, 03:44:57 AM
I'm hoping Burgermeister can add some context to the tone of the developers when they said it would only be vampires. In his sentence, he said "in the initial release", that may ave been the words the CCP rep used, we'll need to see what BM has to say about it.

Yea, the content developer I cornered was a huge fan and contributor to the Werewolf game, so he is really interesting in getting as much Werewolf content in the game as possible. I found the best way to ask questions, was to make a statement and gauge peoples' response. So I said something along the lines of 'Well, new races might be introduced in future expansions, ala "The Burning Crusades". And they more or less affirmed that.  So yea,  I think the only thing stopping them from putting playable werewolves, changlings, etc in the initial release is getting the damn thing out in a reasonable amount of time.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on September 27, 2010, 03:49:33 AM
Story arcs, hm.
I hope these are at least persistent, and less static as possible.

I wonder if they will do a beta in 2011.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Signothorn on September 27, 2010, 03:58:55 AM
I'm wondering what the LARP setting was like here...

[smg id=38]  :sexme:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: _username on September 27, 2010, 04:01:51 AM
Pretty cool stuff.  Maybe the set designer took inspiration from your TG / Christian Bale / Jeanette production.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Ashlar on September 27, 2010, 04:22:55 AM
Thanks for the welcome, Radical and Valamyr!


burgermeister01 and Signothorn, thank you so much for the update. I enjoyed the talk about permadeath and the possibility of playable human classes.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Gerek on September 27, 2010, 04:24:13 AM
Lot of worrisome posts about Werewolves, Mages, etc. not being included. C'mon, an online MMO? Expansions? It will definitely happen. Lot of focus and refinement on vampires and whatever these playable human characters will be, clans, factions, initial start up, etc. and see how well WOD is welcomed after coming out- its an almost certainty.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 27, 2010, 04:33:00 AM
Thanks to Burgermeister for all these tidbits;

Thoughts;

-Just beginning full-production? Didnt we have the same news from a reliable source back in March 2009?? If the game is only entering full-production, then '2012' seems quite optimistic. White Wolf even wrote "Early 2012" on their Twitter feed this weekend...

-a suite of tools to make only RP and ST easier: Now thats cool! That reminds me of Neverwinter Nights' DM tools, which were amazing, although only a small amount of people (handful of thousands) ever played on DM'd servers. If the MMO allows a form of supported storytelling, thats incredibly groundbreaking, though I may be reading too much into it. Ill have to check out their website in detail later.

- "print-to-order" - cool beans, these last few years, shady torrents were about the sole way to get many of the "owod" products. I hope they price them aggressively, theres quite a few things Id like to see again, and my owod books are long gone. I prefer digital books now, though, surely if its done through drivethru, theyll offer it in that format as well?

- Staff headcount: By my calculations, I was counting 125 people working full-time on the MMO - almost entirely in Atlanta. 629K manhours seems to fit, roughly. Im surprised we're still talking about pre-production though, given the size of the staff and time elapsed, but hey. Patience is a Virtue. (It rarely refills my willpower pool, tho.)

- Accessibility: We heard about that awhile ago, but once again its good to hear it again. "Very easy to start, challenging to master" is my favorite formula, but in any situation where the two are at odds, Ill always favor the former.

- 'Not combat intensive': Well that should reassure some people here, no? Hard to make a game a grindfest if its not combat intensive. As long as it doesnt compromise the amount of content or the lifespan of the product, Im quite happy with that.

- "Immaturity policed by players" Meh, without solid mechanics to back it up, we've known this doesnt work since pre-Trammel UO, sadly. But okay, Ill try it before showing teeth.

- Permanant death; this I dont believe at all, and never will. Until Im in the game and it happens to me. Seriously, Justin Achilli could swear to me, one knee in the ground, and I still wouldnt believe it. Color me a skeptic :) What I think we will see are meaningful consequences for death. Thats cool with me. Death will mean Torpor most likely. IMO, it should lock your fallen character for an amount of time based on Humanity. Die with low Humanity? Better have an alt to play for a bit. That'd be harsh enough to make people REAL careful, no cheap respawns!

- Single shard; indeed, we know this is CCP's philosophy and I applaud it 100%. Dunno how big theyll make the game world to compensate, but it should be single shard.

- Factions and territories; duh! Obviously. However, personal Havens and Domains that can be expanded, and enforced through game mechanics would be really awesome. Crossing fingers.

- Gay clubs. Sure, why not. Expect alot of guys making a female char to sneak into the lesbian bar ;) It does offer alot of feeding opportunities as well. A male Kindred pretending to be gay, for instance, would probably have an easier time feeding through seduction than by trying to pick up chicks in a straight bar.

- Wait, playable humans now? I'm confused. That kinda defeats Vampires-only, no? Though I guess offering Ghouls as an option makes sense. But... shrugs. I kinda like keeping it supernaturals-only - but as long as it doesnt change the fact it all revolves around supers, Im okay with it. Would be nice to be able to play a ghoul, gain some XP, and later get the option to be embraced and keep your XP, like in PNP.

- Full PVP, rock on! I do hope Elysiums and Havens can be "truly safe", though. Sometimes you want a place where being attacked is just not an option. Everywhere else, bring it on.

- Story arcs, hmm, intriguing. But too vague. Next time someone is witholding, try again. Successive attempts at persuasion are rolled at -1, big deal!! ;)

- Temporis: ROFL. Please tell me he was kidding even *mentioning* it! I really hope they stick to the basics. 13 clans, no antritribu shit. All that gravy is the reason I welcomed Requiem in the first place. Keep it simple, stupids!!! ;)

- Mages and Wolves : You know theyll add them later. I for one welcome the Vampire start. :)
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Caine on September 27, 2010, 05:21:40 AM
so... they didn't answer the question that was soooo discussed here in the forum, and made people crazy:

we will have day/night cycle or not?


simple question that if positive answered changes everything...

^^
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Seifer on September 27, 2010, 05:36:34 AM
I'm hoping Burgermeister can add some context to the tone of the developers when they said it would only be vampires. In his sentence, he said "in the initial release", that may ave been the words the CCP rep used, we'll need to see what BM has to say about it.

Yea, the content developer I cornered was a huge fan and contributor to the Werewolf game, so he is really interesting in getting as much Werewolf content in the game as possible. I found the best way to ask questions, was to make a statement and gauge peoples' response. So I said something along the lines of 'Well, new races might be introduced in future expansions, ala "The Burning Crusades". And they more or less affirmed that.  So yea,  I think the only thing stopping them from putting playable werewolves, changlings, etc in the initial release is getting the damn thing out in a reasonable amount of time.

Thank God... I mean this and if they didn't make the game sandbox could be the only possible (long term)dealbrakers for me. Again, as stated above I too welcome a Vampire only begining as long as we have something to look foward to. Now if we could just take a look at that rudimentary version of the game...
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Melanieshaman on September 27, 2010, 05:39:00 AM
Story arcs, hm.
I hope these are at least persistent, and less static as possible.

Almost like a "quest chain" (I hate to use those terms), but maybe some sort of open-ended series of events, that vaguely point you to an ultimate end.  Coule be very interesting indeed.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Spiritbw on September 27, 2010, 05:54:43 AM
Well I have to say that what I am hearing right now gives me a good feeling aobut the direction they are going.  Glad to hear also that fans of other systems will ahve something to look forward too as well.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Jannak on September 27, 2010, 03:46:07 PM
Did they confirm that the both the Camarilla and Sabbat (along with the Anarchs, Black Hand, etc) are going to be playable? Also are Tzimisce and Lasombra going to be playable clans?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 27, 2010, 04:06:45 PM
Did they confirm that the both the Camarilla and Sabbat (along with the Anarchs, Black Hand, etc) are going to be playable? Also are Tzimisce and Lasombra going to be playable clans?

All I can think of in regards to that is Mainly "Why not?"
All you really need to do is to add 2 extra clans and 10 new discipline powers(Obteneberation and Viccitude) and maybe some rituals.
Otherwise Sabbat are not that different in their mechanics.

VTM:Bloodlines had only Camarilla because having Sabbat or Independants as a playable faction required another whole storyline which is alot of work.

Still Im hoping that factions wont be rigid presets and players can start their own factions that are independant of Sabbat or Camarilla if they wish, After all many clans are independants for the most parts and that makes them a minor faction all on their own..(Setites,Assamite,Giovanni,Ravnos and so on)
Also Tremere and Lasombra can easily be considered "A sect within a sect"
So IMO keeping factions rigid like in the VTM books will only limit the development team in their design.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: burgermeister01 on September 27, 2010, 04:20:07 PM
Okay, just to follow up with some more speculation on the board here with what I *do* know:

 - Playable humans: I don't know if this would be something that would happen right away, or in an expansion, etc, but the content clearly said (in a Scandinavian accent): There will be humans. And everyone cheered.

 - Day/Night: This is another topic I approached developers with after the conference, and went on a little spiel about all the pros/cons in having some kind of day/night cycle. We all had a chuckle at what a difficult problem it is to approach, but I got the impression I wasn't wrong in assuming that it would be all night in at least the first release.

 - Sabbat: During the fan suggestion panel, another gal brought this up, and eveyone cheered, so hopefully they will consider that seriously. Let's face it, we *all* want to play Sabbat.

 - Player policing; I actually made a suggestion of my own about this to a developer. I said that the game should offer some way of globally distributing a list of players are being blood hunted. Presumably, this could be populated with people who are doing dick things, and otherwise ruining the experience for others. Also people the prince just hates, which would make for some interesting political maneuvering.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: burgermeister01 on September 27, 2010, 04:21:40 PM
I'm wondering what the LARP setting was like here...

[smg id=38]  :sexme:


This is where they were doing Werewolf LARPing (apparently) ... which didn't make any sense to me. Also, this is the room where the Canadians had their party, and I got super-drunk.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 27, 2010, 04:44:31 PM
Okay, just to follow up with some more speculation on the board here with what I *do* know:

 - Playable humans: I don't know if this would be something that would happen right away, or in an expansion, etc, but the content clearly said (in a Scandinavian accent): There will be humans. And everyone cheered.

 - Day/Night: This is another topic I approached developers with after the conference, and went on a little spiel about all the pros/cons in having some kind of day/night cycle. We all had a chuckle at what a difficult problem it is to approach, but I got the impression I wasn't wrong in assuming that it would be all night in at least the first release.

 - Sabbat: During the fan suggestion panel, another gal brought this up, and eveyone cheered, so hopefully they will consider that seriously. Let's face it, we *all* want to play Sabbat.

 - Player policing; I actually made a suggestion of my own about this to a developer. I said that the game should offer some way of globally distributing a list of players are being blood hunted. Presumably, this could be populated with people who are doing dick things, and otherwise ruining the experience for others. Also people the prince just hates, which would make for some interesting political maneuvering.

Sounds good, although no big news as far as Im concerned.

I suppose Day/Night is controversial on this board, but for the public at large, Night-only will likely be taken for granted at the end of the day (no pun intended). The alternatives - all of which we've discussed at length - are all extremely meh from a gameplay point of view IMO, even those I've reluctantly suggested myself. So this is good news for me.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 27, 2010, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: Valamyr
Well MMOs by their nature are a bit rigid and tell the same plot to everyone. Then a good metaplot becomes more important than VTR-like flexibility.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here, Valamyr. Single Player games are a bit rigid by nature, MMOs (or at least, sandbox MMOs) are supposed to let players become the absolute protagonists of the game. How important is the Caine myth when you are a newbie without resources and contacts? Not very much, I think. Should it matter to you what happened in Transilvania back in the 13th century? Only if it affects you directly. Which probably doesn't.  At all. WW did the right thing getting rid of metaplot, not because it constricted creativity (it didn't), but because it made the player stories irrelevant; you and your coterie could have saved New Jersey from the Sabbat, but in the next supplement Jersey was and always had been a Sabbat stronghold. You could say it doesn't matter, but you know fully well it did.

IMO, they didn't choose Masquerade over Requiem because of metaplot. They sure had other more valid motives, but metaplot isn't one of them.

]The video (HQ version now! (http://www.youtu.be/watch?v=MOLT-lcMaHQ)) looks like Requiem, sounds like Requiem (seriously, that was some incredible soundtrack, specially the classical piece of the beginning, I was expecting a more Bloodlines-like soundtrack!)  and some of the recent posts by Russell Bailey have give me hopes that this MMO will have enough of Requiem to make it palatable for NWoD fans. But, still, it's oWoD and I must confess I'm not as excited right now as I was before. The whole "we belong to them" stuff belongs to V:tM 2nd edition, where the idea of vampires controlling everything, always, forever and ever was the dominant one. They downplayed that in the 2nd revised and made it go away with Requiem. It's not nice to see that back, but I guess the CCP guys know what they do and, let's be honest, it sounds badass in that video. Oh, and I think I recognize an image from the Brujah revised clanbook!

Now the question I have is: Garou or Uratha? I know they went with Masquerade vampires, but will the same hold true for werewolves? I really, REALLY, hope it doesn't. I don't want to stick to the forests just because “that's where werewolves are supposed to be unless I happen to belong to an urrah tribe (Glasswalkers and Bone Gnawers)”, or being more or less encouraged to shred every vampire to pieces because I'm in a holy war to save Gaia and they are all Wyrm-spawn (and I'm saying this as a huge Apocalypse fan). But anyway, I expected the MMO to use Requiem instead of Masquerade, so don't really mind me that much.  :cry: :razz:

And what can I say about burgermeister? Dude, I think we all here owe you a beer! You're awesome! Thank you, thank you and thank you.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 27, 2010, 05:15:54 PM
- Player policing; I actually made a suggestion of my own about this to a developer. I said that the game should offer some way of globally distributing a list of players are being blood hunted. Presumably, this could be populated with people who are doing dick things, and otherwise ruining the experience for others. Also people the prince just hates, which would make for some interesting political maneuvering.

KOS lists always exsist in PvP games but id hate to see it becomes something official because its very metagamish(unless you are walking around with a Police Radio or something like that which I presume most players wont do)
I also think it would kind of suck if you could just instantly recognize characters you have never met before(Names over players Head),
I know removing name tags and auto-id might make Policing harder but since WoD is a world of Danger, Secrecy and Corruption I see no problem with that.

Still I would like to see some players being able to be recognized as law enforcers of various kinds (If Sherriff. leash or just a plain human cop).

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 27, 2010, 05:16:57 PM
Well Cahalith, you bring some good points certainly. I refered to the Metaplot simply because I assume the game will not be entirely freeform. A "theme park" aspect demands that there be some "overarching" plot that all players are exposed to; this part would be Metaplotish, but you're right; we have no reasons to believe yet that this was the motive for refering to Masquerade. The fact it sold better than Requiem might be in play; simple marketing perhaps. And indeed, the posts Ive read alot let me believe some aspects of Requiem will be preserved.

This aside, I agree I loved the video - and watched it almost on a loop for a bit Friday night :) I hope they put it online at least, watching a cam is never as good as the real thing.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 27, 2010, 05:25:50 PM
. A "theme park" aspect demands that there be some "overarching" plot that all players are exposed to;

I pray that its Sandbox and not "Theme Park",
In my experience Sandbox gameplay creates more interesting player interaction.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Spiritbw on September 27, 2010, 06:36:21 PM
- Player policing; I actually made a suggestion of my own about this to a developer. I said that the game should offer some way of globally distributing a list of players are being blood hunted. Presumably, this could be populated with people who are doing dick things, and otherwise ruining the experience for others. Also people the prince just hates, which would make for some interesting political maneuvering.

KOS lists always exsist in PvP games but id hate to see it becomes something official because its very metagamish(unless you are walking around with a Police Radio or something like that which I presume most players wont do)

Bloodlisting, if I remeber correctly, was what happened to some vampires, usually with them then being bloodhunted by every vampire via every resource so long as they were in the city.  A raire few even made it so far as to be bloodlisted by the Camerilla as a whole.

Quote
I also think it would kind of suck if you could just instantly recognize characters you have never met before(Names over players Head),
I know removing name tags and auto-id might make Policing harder but since WoD is a world of Danger, Secrecy and Corruption I see no problem with that.

I agree to be honest.  It would require a fair bit of cusotmization of the avatar though to keep from mis-identifying people, which is the usual reason for the name-over-head.

Quote
Still I would like to see some players being able to be recognized as law enforcers of various kinds (If Sherriff. leash or just a plain human cop).
[/quote] Might be possible, speically the last if there is going to be mortals from the get go as is being suggested.

I'd have to go digging it up but back when it was first mentioned that a WoD type MMO was released there was mention of using the humanity traits as a way to control greifing. Interesting idea, I wish someone had asked about it at the Q&A.  We'd probably wind up with as many trying to see how close to the beast they could walk but who knows....?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 27, 2010, 06:55:00 PM
Bloodlisting? I dont remember that anywhere , unless you mean the Tremere-Antitribu bloodcurse but even that did not allow you to recognize a specific person, it only allowed Tremere to recognize the Antitribu.

According to the Info CCP are working on a new character customization mechanics that is highly advanced which means it would be possiable.

Slider Blendshape customization that is common in most RPGs now allows your character to have unique facial features so thats not really much of a problem and since its not that much data your client can cache it from a database before you begin play so you wouldn't have to reaquire that data every time you meet the players. So that is already enough for unique Visual IDs.

Humanity can minimize Griefing in theory but OWoD also has Path of Enlightment which makes your character Ethics subjective,
I dont know if there is The Path of the Griefer but I can think of a few that come close.

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: burgermeister01 on September 27, 2010, 07:21:56 PM
Quote from: Valamyr
Well MMOs by their nature are a bit rigid and tell the same plot to everyone. Then a good metaplot becomes more important than VTR-like flexibility.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here, Valamyr. Single Player games are a bit rigid by nature, MMOs (or at least, sandbox MMOs) are supposed to let players become the absolute protagonists of the game. How important is the Caine myth when you are a newbie without resources and contacts? Not very much, I think. Should it matter to you what happened in Transilvania back in the 13th century? Only if it affects you directly. Which probably doesn't.  At all. WW did the right thing getting rid of metaplot, not because it constricted creativity (it didn't), but because it made the player stories irrelevant; you and your coterie could have saved New Jersey from the Sabbat, but in the next supplement Jersey was and always had been a Sabbat stronghold. You could say it doesn't matter, but you know fully well it did.

IMO, they didn't choose Masquerade over Requiem because of metaplot. They sure had other more valid motives, but metaplot isn't one of them.

]The video (HQ version now! (http://www.youtu.be/watch?v=MOLT-lcMaHQ)) looks like Requiem, sounds like Requiem (seriously, that was some incredible soundtrack, specially the classical piece of the beginning, I was expecting a more Bloodlines-like soundtrack!)  and some of the recent posts by Russell Bailey have give me hopes that this MMO will have enough of Requiem to make it palatable for NWoD fans. But, still, it's oWoD and I must confess I'm not as excited right now as I was before. The whole "we belong to them" stuff belongs to V:tM 2nd edition, where the idea of vampires controlling everything, always, forever and ever was the dominant one. They downplayed that in the 2nd revised and made it go away with Requiem. It's not nice to see that back, but I guess the CCP guys know what they do and, let's be honest, it sounds badass in that video. Oh, and I think I recognize an image from the Brujah revised clanbook!

Now the question I have is: Garou or Uratha? I know they went with Masquerade vampires, but will the same hold true for werewolves? I really, REALLY, hope it doesn't. I don't want to stick to the forests just because “that's where werewolves are supposed to be unless I happen to belong to an urrah tribe (Glasswalkers and Bone Gnawers)”, or being more or less encouraged to shred every vampire to pieces because I'm in a holy war to save Gaia and they are all Wyrm-spawn (and I'm saying this as a huge Apocalypse fan). But anyway, I expected the MMO to use Requiem instead of Masquerade, so don't really mind me that much.  :cry: :razz:

And what can I say about burgermeister? Dude, I think we all here owe you a beer! You're awesome! Thank you, thank you and thank you.

Not sure I understand your post. At the beginning you have it sound like they are going with Requiem, and not Masquerade, and at the end, you acknowledge the reverse. Hmm, just to be clear, they ARE going with Masquerade.

As for the Werewolves, they really didn't talk about that at all; I got lucky that I happened to meet a developer that was full-swing in love with Werewolf. If I had to guess though, I would say that they probably would either not  limit the area that Werewolves could explore, or make the domains that Werewolves control very bad-ass, and also a place that Vampires would have to frequent, so that Werewolves would have their turn being awesome.

I say that because they seem genuinely concerned about making accessibility a major feature of the game, and excluding content from players is a big no-no in that respect.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Acleacius on September 27, 2010, 08:31:39 PM
Quote
The game will be fully PvP
ONLY? Sigh, sad, sad day....err night. How can they think a PVP game will attract the masses or at least Women and Casuals, they are dooming the game to hard core only, another mmog slow death.  :'(
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: burgermeister01 on September 27, 2010, 08:47:59 PM
Quote
The game will be fully PvP
ONLY? Sigh, sad, sad day....err night. How can they think a PVP game will attract the masses or at least Women and Casuals, they are dooming the game to hard core only, another mmog slow death.  :'(

Well remember, fully PvP means "combat can break out, anywhere that isn't Elysium". So, you still have Elysium areas, and how they choose to do that makes a huge difference. Also, I think there is going to be serious repercussions against players who try to grief others, purely out of sadism.

It's been awhile since I played WoW, but areas like that mutual city that came out in the burning crusades, in the 'outlands' or whatever it was called, proved this can work. The whole city did not have PvP but if you stepped outside someone could attack you. I don't have too many bad memories  of getting ganked with any frequency.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 27, 2010, 08:50:29 PM
Quote
The game will be fully PvP
ONLY? Sigh, sad, sad day....err night. How can they think a PVP game will attract the masses or at least Women and Casuals, they are dooming the game to hard core only, another mmog slow death.  :'(

Well its true that PVP is not everyones cup of tea, but I think with a mix of safe areas, and some areas where there are consequences for starting trouble (like in EVE), you can make much of the game accessible.

Its true that making the majority of the game FFA contrasts severely with "accessible" - so Im guessing they have mechanics in mind to help it work. If they enforce Humanity severely and provide no alternatives, that would be one way to make it meaningful.

Edit: Breaking ;) Justin Achilli just updated his blog with his Grand Masquerade notes : http://jachilli.squarespace.com/journal/2010/9/27/after-the-grand-masquerade.html (http://jachilli.squarespace.com/journal/2010/9/27/after-the-grand-masquerade.html)
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on September 27, 2010, 09:27:18 PM
Was there any mention of the way they are handling character progression? Or is that still up in the air at the moment?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Enerzeal on September 27, 2010, 09:30:31 PM
Eve Online has been growing since it was released something not alot of MMOs can boast. There pvp is free for all with guards in highsec space that will destroy your world if you piss them off, I hope for a mechanic if not the exact same, incredibly similar.

Leave flagging pvp and pvp gimics like battlegrounds and arenas to the pure themeparks, if you grow up on this kind of rubbish you will never know the rush thats involved when your running for your life from a bunch of guys who are about to steal everything you have on you at the time.

My best case scenario is as thus...

Free for all full loot perma-death, in a fully seamless world with equal focus on social interactions and combat based interactions. Killing another should be as drastic as it is in the books. Murder without reason should lead to being hunted down to within an inch of your life, force the killers to the dangerous parts of the cities where others like them lurk and the chances of there own final death sky rockets because of one murder.


I have killed and griefed in sandbox MMOs. I have been that guy that everyone hates - simple answer? Its easier to be the bad guy than it is the good guy. Play a game of Dragon Age Origins or VTM:B and screw everyone over for every penny and kill every person you can get away with, and compare your endgame stats with that of a good aligned play through, be nice, follow the rules, I garuntee the bastards of this world cash in way more. I played darkfall a ffa full loot seamless world, at first me and my guild played by the rules, and collected meager funds, the moment we started farming other players as a gank squad we made 20 times as much.

In world of darkness if you crank up the dangers of commiting murder, then things change drastically. Alignment and perma death should be the drastic actions of killing, heres a scenario of a pvper in my idea..

Player A (the bad guy) has targeted a vampire down an alleyway of an area thats low in police activity, he kills the vampire and takes everything he has, weapons clothes personal artifacts - everything. For commiting this act he is now a wanted vamp and his rep drops significantly so that he can now no longer go where he might be recognised(safe areas). So he now has to spend his nights in filth holes, sewers, rundown locations in bad areas of the city. He now has a big problem, because everyone else whos done murder hangs out here now, to me that is way to much risk to handle.

I would however make second characters made after final death start with half skill points, and any items stored in a haven go to the new character. PVE death would also have you character waking up a random safe location close to the point of "death" as in the vampire crawled away, or frenzied and ran.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 27, 2010, 09:50:30 PM
Quote
The game will be fully PvP
ONLY? Sigh, sad, sad day....err night. How can they think a PVP game will attract the masses or at least Women and Casuals, they are dooming the game to hard core only, another mmog slow death.  :'(

Sorry to burst your bubble but I happen to know Women who like to play on Open PvP servers
Not because of the PvP combat in itself but because it leads to richer more interesting P2P interaction that simply doesn't exsist in PvE or themepark dynamic.

As for Casuals, everyone starts as a casual and could be that the reason they stick to casual games is that currently there is nothing better for them (The Majority of PVE MMORPGs that are out now are kind of boring and repeatative to me so not worth getting into)

Anyway do try to keep an open mind about PvP, its not all bad as you seem to think it is.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: burgermeister01 on September 27, 2010, 10:37:00 PM
Was there any mention of the way they are handling character progression? Or is that still up in the air at the moment?

Nah, they were still pretty pursed lips about everything, and that is such a broad topic, it's hard to make specific inferences or ask general questions.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 27, 2010, 11:04:14 PM
Was there any mention of the way they are handling character progression? Or is that still up in the air at the moment?

Nah, they were still pretty pursed lips about everything, and that is such a broad topic, it's hard to make specific inferences or ask general questions.

Understandable.

Whilst I prefer a level-less, XP-based system similar to what we have in P&P, Im not sure theyll be willing to do that, simply because endless progression creates huge power differentials.

My personal answer to that would be diminishing returns on the Vampire: Redemption model. Allow almost limitless advancement but raise the costs for each successive tenth-of-a-dot and youll create a soft cap of sorts, eventually....

It would still open the way for very versatile and powerful Elders amongst established players, but Im quite open to that, personally.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on September 27, 2010, 11:21:58 PM
That was certainly the beauty of blood potency; All power equalizes over time through the thinning of the blood.  Without permadeath, we'd eventually grow into the power gaps everyone knows and loathes in MMO games.  I'd certainly welcome an "inheritability" factor with the permadeath; maybe taking a minute sum of money from your ashed Vamp and transfering it to your new "childe," maybe a treasured keepsake, house, or weapon?  Such a thing wouldn't be much, but it'd be a heck of a lot less painful than losing absolutely ALL your assets in one fell swoop.  But then again... Being ashed and having nothing would make the most sense if a realistic world is to be maintained... Hm...  :chinscratch:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 27, 2010, 11:33:15 PM
EVE has substantial power gaps (its hella hard for a true newbie to catch up) and it purposely doesn't try to address it as a problem.

CCP seems to see it as a normal reward of playing a long time and I admit I like that long term vision. What if we are simply wrong to consider it an issue? Isnt WOD inherently unfair? Isnt it usually at least a bit about the hopelessness of knowing how hard you try, someone somewhere can snap his fingers and see you burst into flames?

Embracing the power gap and refuse to cap or smoothen it may be something to consider.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on September 27, 2010, 11:42:34 PM
True, but there are always tales of the underdog that gets one over on the Elder.  Giovanni diablerizing his antidiluvian sire, etc.  There are ways in the system that exist for players to close or rise over that power gap.  It's not something that is constantly strong, but something flexible, tenuous, and quite prone to breaking unless cared for.  We need those possiblities to exist if this game is to be true to that.  Elders may have more power, but that doesn't mean the ancilla can't catch up, that doesn't mean he/she can't stand over the Elder's ashes one day, y'read?  EVE doesn't have that.  Once you have the power, there are more than enough measures that can be taken to insure that that power, for all intensive purposes, cannot be lost.  Skills for example, are effectively impossible for the younger player to rise up to/surpass.  A younger player will always be intrinsically weaker than the Elder player, and that just isn't the case in WoD.  The younger can take over the older, it happens all the time.  Power needs to be structures as a constantly shifting variable, not some stat that can never be superceded.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Malkyjeff on September 28, 2010, 12:15:48 AM
I do like the whole plan on WoD MMO so far. However, I'm a bit skeptical about it being entirely PvP. I mean there will be a$$holes out there camping low level players and make the game a lot less fun for others. Every once in a while I like to PvP, but I don't want to be in the middle of a quest and have someone cut me down during or right after I'm done when I'm nice & weak.

I hope they rethink this...
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on September 28, 2010, 12:44:32 AM
I guess i would just like to see the players that start the game not be overtaken within the space of 2 - 3 weeks by some hardcore power leveler. The concept that vampires get stronger with time makes sense with an EVE style character progression, just means that those that start a year after release are truely at the bottom of the rung and have to work their way up the ladder.
I trust they know what they are doing, If they (The developers) honestly do read these forums then they can see most people here are not exactly big fans of WoW or most other carbon copy fantasy MMO's that are getting churned out for the masses.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 28, 2010, 12:46:29 AM
EVE has substantial power gaps (its hella hard for a true newbie to catch up) and it purposely doesn't try to address it as a problem.

CCP seems to see it as a normal reward of playing a long time and I admit I like that long term vision. What if we are simply wrong to consider it an issue? Isnt WOD inherently unfair? Isnt it usually at least a bit about the hopelessness of knowing how hard you try, someone somewhere can snap his fingers and see you burst into flames?

Embracing the power gap and refuse to cap or smoothen it may be something to consider.

Some good points to consider there. Yes there is always that special someone who can make your final death happen before you manage to blink, then again in most stories that is usually a role that is reserved for NPCs.

On the other hand The Power gap can easily frustrate players with penis-envy if it seems that extra power that the Nemesis-Player possessed is a result of something trivial like joining the game on date X, and despite that nemesis-player being the most stupid-gulliable vampire on the planet he would still maintain his strength by virtue of simply being there.

If we already have unfairness, would it be more unfair if you have it the other way around by allowing the powerful to lose their characters?
Forget for a second the work they spent playing, if they were too careless/irresponsiable around all that power, do they deserve to wield it?
What if another solution could be managed to reward players for their loyalty to the game?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 some interesting clarification on JA blog:

Quote
@ Mir: Cherry-picking Requiem was my paraphrase of the original player request, and we have no desire to throw out the baby with the bathwater if it makes for better play. It can come from Requiem or wherever; we just have to design a proper way to get it in there.

What I get from this is a very hinted confirmation that some of the better features of Requiem will be adapted to VTMMMO ?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on September 28, 2010, 12:51:23 AM
On the topic of ganking... That won't happen if the mechanics and consequences are dire enough to dissuade it :3
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Melanieshaman on September 28, 2010, 01:56:38 AM
Quote
The game will be fully PvP
ONLY? Sigh, sad, sad day....err night. How can they think a PVP game will attract the masses or at least Women and Casuals, they are dooming the game to hard core only, another mmog slow death.  :'(

Sorry to burst your bubble but I happen to know Women who like to play on Open PvP servers
Not because of the PvP combat in itself ...


When I first started in MMOs i was terrified of pvp servers, now i love em, I love pvp of all kinds... for pvp sake, if i get ganked fine, I will gank back... as far as perma death.. that's harsh but makes sense.

Also, my biggest concern thus far isn't game play wise, it's rather that i will have to build a really high end machine to play this.  I know I have time, but still...
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Gerek on September 28, 2010, 03:51:42 AM
I posted this in another topic, but its pretty relevant here too:

"Notice a lot of people rooting for Permadeath. Honestly though, I really don't see that outcome being a possibility. Utterly losing your charater, especially late game or say over a course of months, is totally going to kill a lot of peoples desire to keep playing. Sure, maybe for a lot of vets of the WOD games are understanding of it because of how powerful we're accustomed to vampires becoming overtime and say they even do decide to come up with some sort of system where your next character is slightly upgraded somewhat- I'm going to make a guess based on other MMO's out there that the makers of the game are going to want to appeal to everyone as best as possible. Like brand new players being introduced to WOD for the first time, the general masses as well as fans. No one wants to create a character, devote so much time and effort into them, grow, learn, interact with others in clan/guild environments, etc. and then in some instance "die" and lose it all in seconds. Especially- and I'm a little surprised no one else has yet mentioned this- if you're going to be paying a monthly fee for the game, which also is a good possibility. EVE itself is $15 a month (if I remember correctly, I quit about 8-9 months ago).

I know its easy to respond saying that well just because these other major MMO's have monthly fee's, don't have permadeath, etc. doesn't mean WoD won't- totally understand that. Just in my opinion and experience, its almost expected."
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 28, 2010, 04:13:09 AM
Well, youre largely right, Gerek, but its really typical of hard-core early followers to have a more "strict" vision of their future games. (In this case, "strict" meaning "really close to P&P") In fact, most of the MMOs Ive followed had early calls for such a mechanic. None ever get anywhere, of course, as the sole commercially-possible implementation for such a feature demands that it be purely voluntary ("Hardcore mode", etc). There are other topics that come up regularly that are essentially dead horses at this point, regarding largely commercially-unviable potential mechanics. Thing is, serious developers know whats a no-go from day 1 of pre-prod, but nothing can stop forum talk aside from firm answers that they aren't giving us yet.

Once a game has launched, strangely, you dont see anyone asking for such things anymore - most often, the pendulum swings too far the other way, and players start to complain about the most minor of annoyances. How their instant teleportation spells to the other side of the world take two seconds too long to cast and such.

Thing to keep in mind is that the early followers (many of us have been dying of thirst for info since late '06) are generally not representative of more than 1% of the people who actually play the game at the end of the day, and the devs and especially the marketing teams know this. Thats why they glance over what we post, but fundamentally, the features were decided elsewhere and our speculations and wish lists are pretty much just that.

I'm sure once they open the flood gates and tell us exactly what they are building, then our feedback will be more focused.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on September 28, 2010, 04:21:44 AM
Reposted,

It's mostly about wanting truthful, lasting consequence involved with PVP.  Permadeath makes random killing sprees all the more rarefied, ganking would end unless there was some boon to diablerizing novitiates (but if you're at the point where you can gank them, it's unlikely you'd get anything besides vitae and a minute bit of cash), Social interaction and diplomacy suddenly have profound meaning.  Killing somebody actually means something; I think that's what people want to see with this permadeath stance.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Gerek on September 28, 2010, 04:28:02 AM
More I read these forum posts, more 2012 is feeling reeeeaaaally far away lol.  :animesucks:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on September 28, 2010, 04:50:27 AM
lol, ain't that the truth  :suicide:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Enerzeal on September 28, 2010, 12:24:24 PM
Reposted,

It's mostly about wanting truthful, lasting consequence involved with PVP.  Permadeath makes random killing sprees all the more rarefied, ganking would end unless there was some boon to diablerizing novitiates (but if you're at the point where you can gank them, it's unlikely you'd get anything besides vitae and a minute bit of cash), Social interaction and diplomacy suddenly have profound meaning.  Killing somebody actually means something; I think that's what people want to see with this permadeath stance.

Eve Online has always had a really good way of handling the newbie areas with 0.0, 0.1-0.4, 0.5-1.0.

In 1.0 there is very little that will kill you beyond the pve. Pvpers will set traps to try and catch out newbies in mining fields, but its really rare, and they dont bother with anything thats not in a hulk cause the prize is to small. Or theres the suicide gank teams of a hauler and a one sided dps battleship. Scan a passing hauler and find its carrying 400 mill, then destroy it with the BS and lose the bs in turn, then use the hauler to grab the loot in the cargohold, carry away a profit.

0.1 - 0.4 wasn't safe and if you went there you knew the risks, the cash wasnt all that better really, not until you get really down to the dangerous 0.1 areas, but anyone could kill you if you wernt ready. 0.0 was the same, except it was player owned territory most of the time, so it was a highly dangerous place for the unprepaired.


If VTMMMO does something similar with permadeath over the top, things could be really interesting. You can already deduce there will be something similar. They mention player controlled territories. These places will be specific locations for player versus player interaction which will be free for all and there will be areas that we wont be able to control, such as starting areas, important city locations, elysium, domains etc. So already there is the possibility for 1.0 - 0.5 and 0.0. Its simply a question of wether they put in 0.4 - 0.1.

In Eve also if you where unfortunate enough to get podded (the pod inside your ship was blown up after your ship was destroyed), then you lost any implants you had on you at the time, which could easily cost you 100mill. And if you where a little on the forgetful of slow side, your clone might not be good enough to r estore all your skill points, so you could lose days or weeks of work.

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Ericone11 on September 28, 2010, 07:01:16 PM
Was there any mention of if WoD MMO will have an in game to RL world currency exchange like the one in Eve? 
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Cahalith on September 28, 2010, 07:56:38 PM
Quote from: burgermeister01
Not sure I understand your post. At the beginning you have it sound like they are going with Requiem, and not Masquerade, and at the end, you acknowledge the reverse. Hmm, just to be clear, they ARE going with Masquerade.
Oh, sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough. Yes, they're going with Masquerade, not a problem with that other than me being a nWoD fan. All I'm saying is that I doubt they're going to ignore all the good things that Requiem brought to the table these past years. That's all.

Quote from: Ericone1
Was there any mention of if WoD MMO will have an in game to RL world currency exchange like the one in Eve?
This is a great question. Will we be able to pay our subscription (and I'm assuming the MMO will use a subscription model) that way? I certainly hope so, there are a lot of WoD fans out there who think paying a monthly fee is pretty much insane. Ithink this would be a great way of get them into the MMO!
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Mir on September 28, 2010, 08:06:47 PM
Quote from: burgermeister01
Not sure I understand your post. At the beginning you have it sound like they are going with Requiem, and not Masquerade, and at the end, you acknowledge the reverse. Hmm, just to be clear, they ARE going with Masquerade.
Oh, sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough. Yes, they're going with Masquerade, not a problem with that other than me being a nWoD fan. All I'm saying is that I doubt they're going to ignore all the good things that Requiem brought to the table these past years. That's all.
I actually asked Justin Achilli about that on his blog, and he did indeed say they weren't going to disregard Requiem when coming up with ideas.  Of course, it's anybody's guess as to exactly what extent they'd be willing to lift from NWoD, but it does give me some hope.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 28, 2010, 09:10:32 PM
Im sure there will be a currency of some sort in game. As with paying the monthly fee that way, well, EVE does that, though its pretty much unique in the landscape.

If they like what its done for EVE, they may choose to re-use that system. Fundamentally, its designed so that the most hardcore players (takes alot of ISK) get a free pass, but it also drains alot of money from the world. Somehow I like it, though I dont find anything insane in having to pay the standard costs: The box, the monthly fees, and then even expansions sold separately if I must. I know it feels steep, but cmon, were speculating on a game years away. Im sure most of us would pay 30$ a month and say thank you may I have another? :p


Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Mir on September 28, 2010, 10:08:37 PM
Hmm.. Ya know, when it comes to revenue models, something that could work especially well in a WoD MMO is an advertising revenue model.  Think about it, the game is going to be set in a modern day city, and what city doesn't have billboards, or even just signs outside of the businesses.  CCP could sell off that ad space, let us play for the cost of the box, and actually make the game world more realistic by doing so.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on September 28, 2010, 10:23:22 PM
Hmm.. Ya know, when it comes to revenue models, something that could work especially well in a WoD MMO is an advertising revenue model.  Think about it, the game is going to be set in a modern day city, and what city doesn't have billboards, or even just signs outside of the businesses.  CCP could sell off that ad space, let us play for the cost of the box, and actually make the game world more realistic by doing so.

Funny I actually suggested that years ago, but Im not so sure I feel like it anymore. If its obtrusive, it could suck, and knowing marketing teams, theyd likely put in the ads and still charge monthly.

Still, its definitely something they thought of at some point in the past.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on September 28, 2010, 11:33:12 PM
Funny according to this FAQ  Outside of EU users pay less because Dollar is not as strong as euro:
http://www.eveonline.com/faq/faq_02.asp (http://www.eveonline.com/faq/faq_02.asp)

Ad space can work if its adapted to the asthetics of the game, They might be able to do so with Texture/Material layering to give any ad the WoD texture feel without too much effort.(create the shading network or layers once and then plug the ads under it)

With that said I doubt ads can make as much profit as a full subscription fee(15$), though could reduce the monthly fee, that way you can offer a non-ads client for people who want to pay the full subscription and a budget option of a client with Ads.

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Nigama on September 29, 2010, 12:00:06 AM
I'd be fine if it was a mix of about 50/50 in game ads vs out of game ads.  Out of game ads would be things like McDonalds or the latest movie or HBO series or some play that's coming out in the real world.  Whatever.  In game ads would be things that reflected the world.  I'm kindof remembering some pretty funny Pentex advertisements and art from the oWoD setting and to have that kind of flavor in game would be awesome.

Nigama
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Spiritbw on September 29, 2010, 02:39:59 AM
Hmm, well i wouldn't mind in game ads.  As said, it's going to be a city, advertisiment is part of the landscape anywhere.  The model they would use could have a lot of speculation going.  Would they use targeted advertising?  Kinda screws with peoples directions when not everyone is seeing the same ads.  Would they rate diffrent costs for diffrent locations in game?  Say they figure out one are is seeing a lot of players and so it costs more to advertise in that part of the game.  Would it be rotating ads?  One time it's one ad, next time you see it there is another etc.


Makes you realize just how complex game production must be when something as simple as ads in games could have a few dozen things to be decided on.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on September 29, 2010, 01:55:13 PM
I can't seem to understand some people's concerns over the PVP aspect of the game.
Is it fear that the game is going to be flooded with WoW style griefers? Surely those concerns should be laid to rest knowing that CCP is handling the development of the game, just take a quick peek at EVE and it's system of dealing with those who get a little idiotic.
Chances are most people here who intend on playing are not that type of person and we are all likely to play together (strength in numbers?), most of the none WOD fans who end up playing are not that way inclined. There's only usually 1 or 2 bad apples that can be dealt with rather swiftly.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Ashlar on September 29, 2010, 03:03:25 PM
True, Leon.

And we must remember: the game won't be combat intensive, unless you choose to play in this way.

I don't know how they will do it, but I'm sure it's not going to atract to much griefers.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on September 29, 2010, 03:11:03 PM
Just have to keep in mind that CCP AND WW are doing this, they are not about to create another WoW clone, worry about it when it's up and running and we know the score. Until then we can safely assume that the pvp is going to be handled in a very careful way as to not upset the WOD fans and also appeal to the masses.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Reap on September 29, 2010, 03:31:09 PM
I'm curious when prelaunch forums will surface, followed by fansites.

>.> That's when the excitement truly builds for me. When I can go on official forums, talk, theorize, and then have say... a "WoD-RP" site devoted to those who plan to active RP on the game... etc.

That kinda stuff is exciting.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on September 30, 2010, 02:21:14 PM
Guess we just have to wait for the information ball to get rolling.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Link6746 on October 01, 2010, 10:00:55 AM
I personally love how this showed up. Even without mages, oWoD means tremere and Malkavians, my two favorite clans- and I absolutely love oWoD vampire's metaplot for it's complexity. I think personally that the lack of major changes to the storyline due to player actions doesn't matter so much as the ability for players to tell their own story and change the world in smaller ways- It's not like you can change history anyway, unless you're a Time Oracle (Mage details).
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on October 01, 2010, 02:37:17 PM
One thing i'm not so clear on, hoping someone can enlighten me. Since the game is based on the old World of Darkness or Vampire: The Masquerade, when exactly is the game set in the universe considering that whole storyline was wrapped up right? (I never played the PnP version just the 2 games, which i feel slightly ashamed of when posting on these forums)
Are they throwing the whole Ghenna storyline out the window and just continuing as if none of that had happened? Or is this going to be a completely different animal with elements from Requiem and Masquerade thrown together to create something of a different game/universe?
If there's not enough information about the game that explains that then fair enough.

I'm just a little confused, i have only a rudimentary knowledge about the PnP games and books so if anyone can clear this up for me then that would be great.
Thanks.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: El_Gostro on October 01, 2010, 02:38:44 PM
Heys I just found a new article bout the gamey in MMORPG.com!
Ya peeps read this?
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4581/World-of-Darkness-Speculating-on-World-of-Darkness.html (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4581/World-of-Darkness-Speculating-on-World-of-Darkness.html)
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Ashlar on October 01, 2010, 03:52:54 PM
Are they throwing the whole Ghenna storyline out the window and just continuing as if none of that had happened? Or is this going to be a completely different animal with elements from Requiem and Masquerade thrown together to create something of a different game/universe?
If there's not enough information about the game that explains that then fair enough.

I'm just a little confused, i have only a rudimentary knowledge about the PnP games and books so if anyone can clear this up for me then that would be great.
Thanks.

Russell Bailley, White Wolf developer, told that the MMO will be a new system, based on Vampire, The Masquerade. Based on Masquerade and adapted to the MMO media. He also said that they'll use their experience whith both systems, oWoD and nWoD, to make the best game setting possible. That said, we know nothing more.

I feel that you're right in thinking it might be a different "animal", but it'll be so similar to Masquerade that old fans are going to be satified.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Valamyr on October 03, 2010, 01:19:45 AM
Heys I just found a new article bout the gamey in MMORPG.com!
Ya peeps read this?
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4581/World-of-Darkness-Speculating-on-World-of-Darkness.html (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4581/World-of-Darkness-Speculating-on-World-of-Darkness.html)

thank you
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Nigama on October 03, 2010, 05:54:39 AM
"I’m not entirely familiar with the World of Darkness setting, but..."

Says it all.

Wish he'd said that at the beginning.


Nigama
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on October 03, 2010, 06:55:32 AM
"Not all that familar..." Do your studying before you write opinions, silly reporter!  If you don't have a strong grasp of the concepts you're discussing, you're just going to misinform the uninformed and blow the already tentative topic of permadeath sky-high.   :asshole:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Nigama on October 04, 2010, 04:34:42 AM
Wow...  I must say...  one thing the Grand Masquerade did do was increase this forums (and area's) thread count.  I know there was a calm before the storm as everyone waited with baited breath... but now we have so many new faces and discussions it's tough to get through them all!

Nigama
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on October 04, 2010, 10:12:19 PM
Wow...  I must say...  one thing the Grand Masquerade did do was increase this forums (and area's) thread count.  I know there was a calm before the storm as everyone waited with baited breath... but now we have so many new faces and discussions it's tough to get through them all!

Nigama

Funny thing is i've been visiting this site for quite a few years on an almost daily basis, it's only recently what with WoD announced that i've actually decided to join in on the forums.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on October 05, 2010, 10:07:41 AM
Where are the video recordings?


 :cry:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Leon on October 05, 2010, 11:50:26 AM
Where are the video recordings?


 :cry:

Was wondering that as well, surely there was more recordings from maybe the Q+A panel?
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on October 14, 2010, 07:32:31 PM
I remember in the early moons of these discussions people ranted and fumed and clawed at the fact that it would be nWOD and not old. They were SO sure of this.
Pie to face.

I can see them applying certain aspects of the nWOD system because it may work better in an MMO environment. The drawback on the nWOD system is that its JUST a system. It doesn't have much to it. The cop out being that ancient vampire barely remember their names let alone the ancient history of their people.
Its similar to D&D where you the storyteller create the world for the players with the rules and information provided.

The oWOD is the story and system that put white wolf on the map.
The amount of lore and background and amazingness contained within its tomes dwarfs nWOD in every aspect.
It makes simple sense to go this route.

All they need to do is adapt things to work in the game and "most" people will know/understand the political map right from the start.
Brilliant. I love it.
When can we crusade?

Plus we have all the loved characters from the stacks of oWOD fluff.
Cant wait to run up to Lambach with a (!) over his head.

Again, I like most of the streamlined rules in nWOD, but that ends at Malkovians and all the whacky crap they whipped up in a drunken haze.
Actual rules for diablerie. Activating physical disciplines for the scene. (just to mention a few.)

Now...if only I can play a Samedi. ;)

For those that were waiting for Were's or mages, I wouldn't be too upset about it. Instead of having multiple different races with sparse and unloved starting areas/content we'll get vamps which are arguably the best drawing point at this time. I'm assuming that once things get polished and completed they will look at the other supers.
I think it would be safe to say that the first expansion would include a new super. If not, they probably will never happen.
Speculation of course.

p.s I'm guessing there was a board restart? Seems my account went poof.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on October 14, 2010, 08:35:32 PM


I can see them applying certain aspects of the nWOD system because it may work better in an MMO environment. The drawback on the nWOD system is that its JUST a system. It doesn't have much to it. The cop out being that ancient vampire barely remember their names let alone the ancient history of their people.
Its similar to D&D where you the storyteller create the world for the players with the rules and information provided.


No offense but thats just a stupid stigma by nWoD haters with nothing really to support this claim.
Vampires not having an eidetic memory is not that much of a big deal, humanity don't have eidetic memory thats why we have scholars to write things down and collect knowledge.

any metaplot can be either true or false which was anyways true to OWoD with all the contridictions between various testimonys and conflicting truths (anything surrounding the Anthediluvians or Caine was usually half truth and half BS)
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PGM1961 on October 14, 2010, 11:50:59 PM
No offense but thats just a stupid stigma by nWoD haters with nothing really to support this claim.
Vampires not having an eidetic memory is not that much of a big deal, humanity don't have eidetic memory thats why we have scholars to write things down and collect knowledge.

Liking or disliking a game is personal choice. Too many people think that OWoD is perfect, and some feel that way about NWoD.  I think both systems have flaws.  If you like NWoD, that's great.  Others have their own reasons for disliking it.  I'm one of the latter, and I make no apologies for that fact.  Just like I make no apologies for liking chocolate over vanilla.  We're all just giving our opinions here; try not to take this too seriously.  Calling someone who disagrees with you a 'hater' means that you think their arguments are irrational, and that you dismiss their opinions as being worthless.  Kind of patronizing (even when it's sometimes true).

I've been visiting this forum for a while before joining, and I've agreed with a lot of the posts you've made.  This just isn't one of them.  [Oh, and while most of humanity doesn't have an eidetic memory, some individuals do.]   :vampsmile:


any metaplot can be either true or false which was anyways true to OWoD with all the contridictions between various testimonys and conflicting truths (anything surrounding the Anthediluvians or Caine was usually half truth and half BS)

True enough.  Everyone I knew who played VtM always took the clan histories with a grain of salt.  Each clan had their version of history, so it wasn't hard to see that a lot of 'fact' about the OWoD was just hearsay.  Was Caine literally the first son of the first human?  Probably not.  Weaving the truth amid the lies was always the storyteller's job.  White Wolf's mistake was that they started to take their entire Gehenna myth too seriously.  It's great to give the players a mythology that they can build from; but when your metaplot starts to undermine what the storytellers have imagined, and destroys everything they built, then you lose customers.

I think what PANZERBUNNY is saying is that White Wolf tried to avoid doing that in the NWoD, and overcompensated, by not giving their players enough of a framework of history to build their world -- at least in his opinion.  Mine too.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on October 15, 2010, 04:42:09 AM
Its true that certain meta plots could be totally false, twisted or an outright lie, but that falsehood or lie WAS the truth in regards to the lore in oWOD.

All the truths and lies of the oWOD created the landscape for the game. It doesn't matter what's real or what's not. Thats the whole point.

The designers of the MMO can WALK into an already fleshed out world, pick what they want to use and add what they want to mesh in.

I honestly think that the above was a main reason in choosing the oWOD over the nWOD.

With the nWOD they would have to create everything. It's VERY hard to create an immersive atmosphere in a game with zero background.
Its like comparing Guild Wars with LOTRO.

Even if certain lores/politics aren't coded into the game, those that are familiar with the oWOD (which will be many) sort of "fill in the gaps." Your imagination and knowledge piece together the landscape.


WW tried to create a sandbox RPG game for their vampire title and came up short. (I can see why they made the decision to try that change over.)
The reason that so many people played VtM was because of the intense lore and fiction. I can say that rolling a zillion D10's wasn't the most efficient system.

Do you think most people play the Gw model games because they're toys? Its the fiction and universe they have created around the plastic hunks of soldiers.
If they supplied the miniatures, but said "you guys decide whats going on. we'll just give you the basics" the game wouldn't be as successful.

It becomes a culture of its own. Something the nWOD will never be.

People can prefer one game system over another, but I cant see anything in the nWOD that would help me "connect" or "comeback" to the game. The only tool to grip the players is the storyteller and the tales they dream onto the tabletop.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on October 15, 2010, 05:44:54 AM
  Calling someone who disagrees with you a 'hater' means that you think their arguments are irrational, and that you dismiss their opinions as being worthless.

I did say I think he was irrational and I dont think I need to apologize for that because I explained my rational for thinking so.
As for his opinions being worthless it really depends to whom, to me they probably are because as I already explained they are irrational and somehow I doubt he gave NWoD more than a glance over.

I didn't call someone who disagrees with me a Hater, I said that these psuedo-factual opinions he voiced are commonly used by NWoD haters to discredit NWoD unjustly and without much of a rational..

There is a grave difference between likeing OWoD better and bashing NWoD for the hell of it. from how I read it he was doing mostly the latter
And im not saying that as an OWoD vs NWoD thing because I actually love both.

If we are talking about opinions I have stated my own opinion just now and I dont think it is any more arrogant than what he wrote with the whole pie to face thing and so on ...

NWoD does have backgrounds, it does have clanbooks, elaborate Covenant books and history.
For other content it does have Requiem for Rome, VII and more than a few other content books, the difference is that most of them are optional. (For the record in OWoD they are optional too, its just that no one bothers to tell that to the players).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That aside , I dont see how OWoD's monotheistic mythology and metaplot would actually serve an MMORPG better than NWoD's multiple histroical accounts. I liked the whole Cainite myth in the beggining but I didn't like how they demystifed it towards the end with Ghenna and I don't want to see a recap of that or "Hunt the Anthediluvian quest lines"
If they go with VTM thats fine but I expect to see a game where the Players are the storyline rather than a group of poorly implamented "Quests" that insult OWoD's deeper concepts.

Like I already said, both games have roughly the same level of ambiguity over different topics
In OWoD its the Cainite myth, the Anthediluvians and the Jyhad
In NWoD its the origin and evolution of vampires.
VTR is just more Polytheistic than VTM.
The problem VTR has is not the lack of history, each of its Covenants and clans have ample history and secrets to uncover.
What it lack is a clear all encompasing purpous for all of it.

The VTM's Cainte myth's advantage(or disadvantage depends how you see it)  is that the Sects revolve around it and their purpous is derived from it in one way or another with Ghenna being the thing that ties both Camarilla and Sabbat together and forcing all vampires to be confronted with the concept of the end of the world..

In VTR however each Covenant has a different goal that motivate vampires on a more personal level because the purpous of the Covenants usually doesn't lie in an extrenal source, they don't have a Ghenna clock ticking and many of them search for truth instead of acknowleging one all encompasing truth, it may be that Caine IS the father of all Vampires in VTR, its just that there are vampires who also have other theories (come from Longinus, Dracula, Crone etc).

In Both VTM and VTR the whole truth is known solely to the one who created that truth so my conclusion is that I would like to see a mishmash of ideas from both settings or something new entirely that encompasses both.
We all live in a Polytheistic world, it is abit old fashioned to presume every vampire would immidiatly assume they come from Caine, not when there are many other explanations out there.

I would also like to see Paths of Enlightment return to NWoD mechanics. I know Covenants were ment to replace the Paths in their purpous but they are lacking in parts, or maybe more Covenants or Covenant subsects are required.








Btw I was also curious about it in the past and from what I read Eidetic memory in Humans is never as limitless or perfect as Pop Culture would have us believe, usually its either temporary(like RAM on a computer) or that its limited to very specific type of information. also its most commonly found as a side effect of autism.

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PGM1961 on October 15, 2010, 11:28:54 AM
Btw I was also curious about it in the past and from what I read Eidetic memory in Humans is never as limitless or perfect as Pop Culture would have us believe, usually its either temporary(like RAM on a computer) or that its limited to very specific type of information. also its most commonly found as a side effect of autism.

No it's not as perfect as you see it depicted in books or on TV, but there are those of us with very good memories.  Plus, I've taken memory improvement courses, which turned an extremely good memory into an almost perfect one.  I don't have to take notes, or write numbers down, and I remember what I've read.  However, I'm just as likely to forget my jacket or cellphone when I walk out of the door as anyone else.  Different kind of memory.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on October 15, 2010, 12:12:38 PM

No it's not as perfect as you see it depicted in books or on TV, but there are those of us with very good memories.  Plus, I've taken memory improvement courses, which turned an extremely good memory into an almost perfect one.  I don't have to take notes, or write numbers down, and I remember what I've read.  However, I'm just as likely to forget my jacket or cellphone when I walk out of the door as anyone else.  Different kind of memory.

I have no doubt of it , the question is for how many years does that memory stays available in its complete form?
Vampires far outlive the normal human lifespan and if their brain remained in stasis its very likely that they wouldn't be able to learn anything new because their mind wouldn't be able to form new neural connections and associations.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PGM1961 on October 15, 2010, 12:47:45 PM
I have no doubt of it , the question is for how many years does that memory stays available in its complete form?
Vampires far outlive the normal human lifespan and if their brain remained in stasis its very likely that they wouldn't be able to learn anything new because their mind wouldn't be able to form new neural connections and associations.

You do have a point, because while I could probably rewrite a book I just read nearly verbatim, it does fade... I couldn't do that with books I read 30 years ago.  (Besides, I hadn't taken any memory courses yet.)

However, don't extend real-world brain chemistry too far in trying to explain vampiric memory.  Yes, their bodies are obviously locked into the condition they were in at the time of 'death'.  But they can obviously learn new skills and increase their strength, even though their brains aren't creating new neural pathways, and their bodies aren't gaining muscle mass.  They are supernatural creatures, and as such can't be totally explained by physics.  Vampires do have a learning curve... they tend to learn new things less easily as time goes on.  But I tend to think this is due more to the psychology of aging, rather than inability to learn or remember.

Old people have a tendency to lose their desire to learn new things.  "Oh, I'm too old to learn about all of this new technology."  I've heard this from a lot of older people, to explain why they don't understand how to use a computer, or program their VCR, or take a picture with their cellphone.  But there are other people who are 80 years old and starting blogs, and who have no trouble keeping up with new developments.  And studies have shown that it's the people who are willing to learn new things, who are more likely to resist the onset of senility and other mental disorders associated with aging, like Alzheimer's.

I only skimmed the VtR core rulebook, so I didn't know anything about vampires losing memory as they get older, if that's the case.  But I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be true for all of them.  There will always be those who retain their ability to grow and learn, just like there will always be those who retain their Humanity in spite of their existence as a vampire... and the things they're forced to do.

As for myself, I always plan on learning new things, to keep my mind active and young.  Hopefully that will still apply if I'm ever Embraced.   :vampsmile:
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Nigama on October 15, 2010, 01:48:53 PM
Its true that certain meta plots could be totally false, twisted or an outright lie, but that falsehood or lie WAS the truth in regards to the lore in oWOD.

I just wanna respond to this small part of your post.  I frequently see "the metaplot" brought up as a detraction from oWoD.  But nearly all of the oWoD games I've played we never introduced an element from the metaplot beyond what might have been in the core books and whatever the ST happened to be drawn to, and then only those elements.  We NEVER, not once, used an NPC from the metaplot (games played at conventions are a different story).  So for me, the NORM was "ignore the metaplot" and make your own plot.  So imagine my confusion when they said they "needed" to bring the line to a close.  So as someone used to creating his own metaplot and not relying on WW for one, maybe that's why I'm such a huge oWoD fan.  Anyway, the point of this message is not to rehash my fors and against for oWoD/nWoD but to emphasize the lack of metaplot needed after history and setting are laid down.  I think that's a really crucial point that shouldn't be lost, nor should we EVER forget the WW's Golden Rule... if something isn't working or isn't fun, change it or ignore it!

Quote
All the truths and lies of the oWOD created the landscape for the game. It doesn't matter what's real or what's not. Thats the whole point.

Exactly.  The only way you can find out what's "real" or not is to head outside and hit the streets.  Our players never knew what to expect, and if they were hardcore rules lawyers who'd memorized the books, we'd be SURE to change stats, backgrounds, motivations, whatever was needed to see that look of shock as what they expected to happen didn't.

Quote
Even if certain lores/politics aren't coded into the game, those that are familiar with the oWOD (which will be many) sort of "fill in the gaps." Your imagination and knowledge piece together the landscape.
...
The only tool to grip the players is the storyteller and the tales they dream onto the tabletop.

Look at you, saying what I was trying to say more eloquently!     ....How dare you!  :vampsmile:  haha


Nigama
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on October 15, 2010, 06:02:22 PM
  Calling someone who disagrees with you a 'hater' means that you think their arguments are irrational, and that you dismiss their opinions as being worthless.

I did say I think he was irrational and I dont think I need to apologize for that because I explained my rational for thinking so.
As for his opinions being worthless it really depends to whom, to me they probably are because as I already explained they are irrational and somehow I doubt he gave NWoD more than a glance over.

I didn't call someone who disagrees with me a Hater, I said that these psuedo-factual opinions he voiced are commonly used by NWoD haters to discredit NWoD unjustly and without much of a rational..

There is a grave difference between likeing OWoD better and bashing NWoD for the hell of it. from how I read it he was doing mostly the latter
And im not saying that as an OWoD vs NWoD thing because I actually love both.

If we are talking about opinions I have stated my own opinion just now and I dont think it is any more arrogant than what he wrote with the whole pie to face thing and so on ...

NWoD does have backgrounds, it does have clanbooks, elaborate Covenant books and history.
For other content it does have Requiem for Rome, VII and more than a few other content books, the difference is that most of them are optional. (For the record in OWoD they are optional too, its just that no one bothers to tell that to the players).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That aside , I dont see how OWoD's monotheistic mythology and metaplot would actually serve an MMORPG better than NWoD's multiple histroical accounts. I liked the whole Cainite myth in the beggining but I didn't like how they demystifed it towards the end with Ghenna and I don't want to see a recap of that or "Hunt the Anthediluvian quest lines"
If they go with VTM thats fine but I expect to see a game where the Players are the storyline rather than a group of poorly implamented "Quests" that insult OWoD's deeper concepts.

Like I already said, both games have roughly the same level of ambiguity over different topics
In OWoD its the Cainite myth, the Anthediluvians and the Jyhad
In NWoD its the origin and evolution of vampires.
VTR is just more Polytheistic than VTM.
The problem VTR has is not the lack of history, each of its Covenants and clans have ample history and secrets to uncover.
What it lack is a clear all encompasing purpous for all of it.

The VTM's Cainte myth's advantage(or disadvantage depends how you see it)  is that the Sects revolve around it and their purpous is derived from it in one way or another with Ghenna being the thing that ties both Camarilla and Sabbat together and forcing all vampires to be confronted with the concept of the end of the world..

In VTR however each Covenant has a different goal that motivate vampires on a more personal level because the purpous of the Covenants usually doesn't lie in an extrenal source, they don't have a Ghenna clock ticking and many of them search for truth instead of acknowleging one all encompasing truth, it may be that Caine IS the father of all Vampires in VTR, its just that there are vampires who also have other theories (come from Longinus, Dracula, Crone etc).

In Both VTM and VTR the whole truth is known solely to the one who created that truth so my conclusion is that I would like to see a mishmash of ideas from both settings or something new entirely that encompasses both.
We all live in a Polytheistic world, it is abit old fashioned to presume every vampire would immidiatly assume they come from Caine, not when there are many other explanations out there.

I would also like to see Paths of Enlightment return to NWoD mechanics. I know Covenants were ment to replace the Paths in their purpous but they are lacking in parts, or maybe more Covenants or Covenant subsects are required.








Btw I was also curious about it in the past and from what I read Eidetic memory in Humans is never as limitless or perfect as Pop Culture would have us believe, usually its either temporary(like RAM on a computer) or that its limited to very specific type of information. also its most commonly found as a side effect of autism.

I think you're over thinking things.

Though nWOD does have elements of detail in regard to their clan books etc, it cant compare to the detail provided in oWOD. It doesn't compare to the vast tale spun from the beginning of time. You can spin it all you want, but the fact that the parent company has decided to pass on nWOD for their MMO means that nWOD couldn't live up against oWOD for whatever reason.
The fact that they would even CONSIDER bringing oWOD back from the dead when they have an active line of products unrelated to the subject means that they put some pretty deep thought into it.

I'm sure it comes down to the customer base and the base product itself. More people connect with oWOD. Period. There is more to draw from in oWOD period.

Of course the above could all be BS and the devs working on the game simply liked oWOD better, but I don't think thats the case at all.

The idea of mashing them both together to create something new is a horrible idea and would serve to drive people away that prefer oWOD and nWOD alike. Enhancing elements that were half assed in VtM with elements from requiem is cool and I'm all for it, but changing the landscape would be a big no no.
As they've stated it will be oWOD, I'm not concerned about this. They would have stated a new vampire line if they intended to mash everything up and go ta-da!

We'll find out though.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Alan Drayson on October 15, 2010, 06:31:56 PM
o.O I thought it's already been stated that the cherrypicking of both systems is an ongoing process regarding the MMO's development?  Besides, there's plenty of elements in both that wouldn't translate all that well to an MMORPG that they need to revise, remove, or combine to mesh effectively.  For example, I could see the OWoD's story being well-recieved, while NWoD's Blood Potency trait would be more effective in an MMO environment than the stagnant generation system, which while good, doesn't allow progress UNLESS one fights.  For a game taking pride in balancing social and combat aspects... Just seems like a bad idea :3
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on October 15, 2010, 08:09:07 PM
I'd be down for the blood potency system.

Sadly they would have to alter it into a new system due to the effects of falling into Torpor. People cant lose control of their characters for any reason.

Generation would be tricky because its a fairly permanent thing. I like the eb and flow of blood potency. Curious how they will make us use BP though. hmmmm.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Seifer on October 15, 2010, 08:14:49 PM
o.O I thought it's already been stated that the cherrypicking of both systems is an ongoing process regarding the MMO's development?

To me all that is, is the wishfull thinking of nWOD fans that read to much into a diplomatic answer. I could be right or wrong but it would seem awfully strange that they didn't even mention Requiem on the anouncement of the MMO and when the nWOD fans complained they said, "yeah alright we will be drawing inspiration from other sources as well", and the game ended up being 50% oWOD/ 50% nWOD.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PANZERBUNNY on October 15, 2010, 10:28:09 PM
the best thing for the game would be to apply certain nWOD mechanics and leave the lore alone regarding oWOD.

They cant declare it oWOD and include crap like Malkovians instead of Malkavians.

They've chosen their path and should run with it without being swayed, otherwise the game runs the risk of falling short of awesome.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on October 15, 2010, 10:38:38 PM
They said it would be based on VtM. Remember that VtR was also based on VtM.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: PGM1961 on October 16, 2010, 07:00:38 AM
They said it would be based on VtM. Remember that VtR was also based on VtM.

Hell, for that matter, the TV show "Kindred: The Embraced" was based on VtM.  They changed a lot, translating it to TV.  I still liked it, though.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: zepherin on October 16, 2010, 08:55:17 AM
I am looking forward to this game. So much so that I made an account on this forum. I was hoping for a game that was like a Bloodlines MMO because Bloodlines after it has been patched is one of the greatest games I ever played. It integrates several types of games together, FPS, stealth, social, rpg and the game is whatever type the players want it to be.

Here is the problem as I see it. I think they need to pick whether they want to have a harsh reality with a heavy handed death penalty. Or a game with heavy casual users. These are mutually exclusive options. Even online which has a serious death penalty and is known for griefing, is not a major player and will never be a major player. Eve has a dedicated player base and I'm not saying that it is bad I'm just saying their development is at odds with their PR.

I operate under these assumptions.

A higher subscription base brings more money to the company.
More money means that the developers can develop more content.
More content makes for a better game.
A higher subscription base makes for a better game.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on October 16, 2010, 11:44:40 AM
I am looking forward to this game. So much so that I made an account on this forum. I was hoping for a game that was like a Bloodlines MMO because Bloodlines after it has been patched is one of the greatest games I ever played. It integrates several types of games together, FPS, stealth, social, rpg and the game is whatever type the players want it to be.

Here is the problem as I see it. I think they need to pick whether they want to have a harsh reality with a heavy handed death penalty. Or a game with heavy casual users. These are mutually exclusive options. Even online which has a serious death penalty and is known for griefing, is not a major player and will never be a major player. Eve has a dedicated player base and I'm not saying that it is bad I'm just saying their development is at odds with their PR.

I operate under these assumptions.

A higher subscription base brings more money to the company.
More money means that the developers can develop more content.
More content makes for a better game.
A higher subscription base makes for a better game.

You forget to bring into account the customer loyalty factor, EVE Online is a Unique game which means that the customers who really like the game are less likely to move on to other games in light of the fact that currently most MMORPGs out there are Themepark with restricted PvP-style and Shards that divide the playerbase.

I mean think about it, how many people choose to terminate their accounts with one mainstream MMORPG the second there is a new mainstream...I may be wrong but I'm thinking so many people are going to put down their WoW subscription when GW2 comes out.

About "more content" its kind of odd because Developers like Blizzard still charge extra for expansions like WOTLK instead of using subscription money to cover their expenses which makes some customers kind of frustrated with their seemingly unjustified greed.

Higher subscription doesn't make for a better game , at least not from what I see, in most of these MMORPGs The number of subscribers is subdivided into seperate servers and the game's content has to be conservative to try and please all of them.

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Azz on October 16, 2010, 03:35:51 PM
The MMO with the largest playerbase right now is FarmVille with over 90 million users. They make a lot of money, and still I don't consider it a better game because of that.

And Bloodlines wasn't made by White-Wolf, it was a license.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on October 16, 2010, 03:42:37 PM
The MMO with the largest playerbase right now is FarmVille with over 90 million users. They make a lot of money, and still I don't consider it a better game because of that.

And Bloodlines wasn't made by White-Wolf, it was a license.

Sad but true
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Vlisson on October 24, 2010, 06:51:32 PM
so its getting released in 12-18 month? (hey 2011 is coming ^^)

and no screenshots about this game? im so excited and want to get more infos ^^
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: zepherin on October 27, 2010, 03:02:17 AM

You forget to bring into account the customer loyalty factor, EVE Online is a Unique game which means that the customers who really like the game are less likely to move on to other games in light of the fact that currently most MMORPGs out there are Themepark with restricted PvP-style and Shards that divide the playerbase.

I mean think about it, how many people choose to terminate their accounts with one mainstream MMORPG the second there is a new mainstream...I may be wrong but I'm thinking so many people are going to put down their WoW subscription when GW2 comes out.

About "more content" its kind of odd because Developers like Blizzard still charge extra for expansions like WOTLK instead of using subscription money to cover their expenses which makes some customers kind of frustrated with their seemingly unjustified greed.

Higher subscription doesn't make for a better game , at least not from what I see, in most of these MMORPGs The number of subscribers is subdivided into seperate servers and the game's content has to be conservative to try and please all of them.
I'm not trying to suggest that a higher subscription makes a better game. I am saying that it allows the production team to exist and for them to add on expansions. And loyalty is important, but if they want WOD to be a mainstream hit and break the 1 mill mark they are going to have to play to the masses. Eve online is innovative and interesting, but the harsh nature of the game, confusing interface and extreme learning curve kept players away. I think you are right many people will leave WoW for GW2, but WoW will still have at least a million customers and cataclysm will keep some too and allow wow to hit them for another 30 bucks a pop,  and GW2 will probably do better than GW1. Still if we are talking GW then let's talk NCSoft. All of their games have pretty light death penalties, and NC soft has 4 MMOs that have at one point had over a million customers.

I have mixed views on charging for additional content, but without the high subscriber base there would not be any extra content.

I'm not saying that the game shouldn't allow intrigue, hell that's part of the point of Vampire the Masquerade is intrigue and deception, but the developers seam to be looking at the game in a similar no holds bar way that they look at eve and then say they are trying to get to the wider consumer market. These are not compatible objectives.

Also I know Bloodlines was made by Troika and licensed to them by Whitewolf, that still doesn't mean that the MMO shouldn't be similar to Bloodlines in many aspects. And while farmville is the most popular MMO in a limited sense, they don't get 10 bucks a pop from their 90 million person population. Farmville made about 240 million dollars in 2009. WoW made close to a Billion.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on October 27, 2010, 03:13:08 AM
but WoW will still have at least a million customers and cataclysm will keep some too and allow wow to hit them for another 30 bucks a pop,

I don't know about that, if you looked at GW2 its a whole new class of MMO, WoW wont be able to keep up with it because its engine would be technically dated in comparison at least on the short term and eventually it will die out like Asheron's call did.
(Asheron's Call was something like the second MMORPG to be created and was incredibly popular at its time and nowdays I think Turbine are considering putting that old dog to sleep).

WoW is the same way only worse because it has no sandbox enviroment or unique features that would make it endearing in some way (which is why I think AC is still alive despite being dated) or if there are such features I would'nt know about them because so many games ripped off that kind of gameplay by now.


Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: zepherin on October 27, 2010, 03:19:37 AM
but WoW will still have at least a million customers and cataclysm will keep some too and allow wow to hit them for another 30 bucks a pop,

I don't know about that, if you looked at GW2 its a whole new class of MMO, WoW wont be able to keep up with it because its engine would be technically dated in comparison at least on the short term and eventually it will die out like Asheron's call did.
(Asheron's Call was something like the second MMORPG to be created and was incredibly popular at its time and nowdays I think Turbine are considering putting that old dog to sleep).

WoW is the same way only worse because it has no sandbox enviroment or unique features that would make it endearing in some way (which is why I think AC is still alive despite being dated) or if there are such features I would'nt know about them because so many games ripped off that kind of gameplay by now.
Of course WoW is dated.  And AC was fantastic, but it takes a while for the invested player to just walk away completely from their characters and subscription fees. The thing is that generally MMO Gfx are not top of the line. They want the most compatibility so they shoot for a mark where they won't exclude most of their target market when they choose a graphics engine. It is why the recommended requirements for Aion are pretty chintzy. And while GW2 will be a bit higher it won't be by much.
Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: Radical21 on October 27, 2010, 03:51:55 AM
Of course WoW is dated.  And AC was fantastic, but it takes a while for the invested player to just walk away completely from their characters and subscription fees. The thing is that generally MMO Gfx are not top of the line. They want the most compatibility so they shoot for a mark where they won't exclude most of their target market when they choose a graphics engine. It is why the recommended requirements for Aion are pretty chintzy. And while GW2 will be a bit higher it won't be by much.

I know that Graphics are a thing with some people but GW2 wont just be good on the Graphics level, it will have never seen before gameplay mechanics that on a PvE level could even put most singleplayer games to shame... so it is relatively revolutionary(still not as revolutionary as EvE but revolutionary for a mainstream) which is why JA and so many other people talk about it, unlike WoD its not a niche and pretty mainstream in its fantasy settings that mirror WoW "style" ,Anyways I think Blizzard had alot more unique style during their Warcraft II,Diablo I and StarCraft period. So unless Blizzard are preparing a counter offensive I see their product diving.

 I mean I know I wouldn't pay 30 bucks monthly to play an MMO especially when I know that something with better gameplay is out there.I payed 10 Bucks for AC at the time but I didn't feel ripped off as the case is with Blizzard's expansions, I had the DM expansion for AC and I still payed the regular ~10 bucks and got monthly updates so you can understand where im coming from.
 Turns out my younger sister who, unlike me and my older sister, is a sucker for that whole Fantasy-kitsche style had a WoW account (I always thought she played on some hacked Private shard or something) but she dumped it when she found out that she has to pay extra monthly for WoTLK so that 30 bucks a pop might be a gamekiller for some people.

Title: Re: The Grand Masquerade News (23/10 - 26/10)
Post by: zepherin on October 27, 2010, 04:14:39 AM
I suggested that WoW moves from 11.5 million subscribers to a number significantly less than that. GW2 and annoyance with billing for expansions is not going to make 11 million subscriptions bolt. They are going to steal from WoW but probably in the neighborhood of a couple million. According to Activision-Blizzards 10Q filing blizzards deferred subscriber revenue (accounting talk for subscribers this year) is 284 million dollars for the quarter, which is still over a billion a year. These are Augusts numbers. The 11.5 million subscribers are Jan 1st numbers. 10Q (quarterly) are never as detailed as 10k (yearly) filings.  My point remains that WoW is going to have millions of people after GW2. They are also creating a new MMO too. New IP and all that jazz.