collapse

Author Topic: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character  (Read 670 times)

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« on: December 23, 2018, 02:16:25 AM »
To say the least, disappointed with the direction they took him at.
The initial concept was more than impressive, a Tzimisce who took an interest in the meaning of gender (and the concept of "gender" itself). Guess such a character could have served as a moderate transgender fanservice at best, but these aren't mainstream, so the devs had come up with something that sells faster...

To put it short, I'm not amused that my clan of choice is represented not by a researcher, but a LGBT bait who isn't just a disgrace to the former, but a walking insult to the transgender crowd, and by that I mean people who actually changed their gender by SRS/HRT. Guess they're really fond of this association with pervs and drag queens.

Speaking of minor wasted opportunities, I can't but recall an infamous MDMA incident, when our proud hero had fixed someone's mouth for questioning his looks originality, while being fvcked up on the mentioned stuff. That not only ironically showcases a notorious LGBT people's intolerance of any critique, but does not match the drug (which also known as Extasy) profile. It would've made more sense if he did not take this as an offence at all (nothing is new under the moon), or made this impudent youth look like a complete ignoramus by explaining the origins and meaning behind the Gigerian creature he was compared to, thus fixing his mouth verbally.

Roughly speaking, MDMA (aka extasy) is famous for rendering its user almost unable to feel any negative emotions, which is its trademark and the main reason it's so kvlt and highly sought after a club drug. Because of this, the scene feels extra awkward.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 05:25:52 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 01:17:24 PM »
To say the least, disappointed with the direction they took him at.
The initial concept was more than impressive, a Tzimisce who took an interest in the meaning of gender (and the concept of "gender" itself). Guess such a character could have served as a moderate transgender fanservice at best, but these aren't mainstream, so the devs had come up with something that sells faster...

To put it short, I'm not amused that my clan of choice is represented not by a researcher, but a LGBT bait who isn't just a disgrace to the former, but a walking insult to the transgender crowd, and by that I mean people who actually changed their gender by SRS/HRT. Guess they're really fond of this association with pervs and drag queens.

Speaking of minor wasted opportunities, I can't but recall an infamous MDMA incident, when our proud hero had fixed someone's mouth for questioning his looks originality, while being fvcked up on the mentioned stuff. That not only ironically showcases a notorious LGBT people's intolerance of any critique, but does not match the drug (which also known as Extasy) profile. It would've made more sense if he did not take this as an offence at all (nothing is new under the moon), or made this impudent youth look like a complete ignoramus by explaining the origins and meaning behind the Gigerian creature he was compared to, thus fixing his mouth verbally.

Roughly speaking, MDMA (aka extasy) is famous for rendering its user almost unable to feel any negative emotions, which is its trademark and the main reason it's so kvlt and highly sought after a club drug. Because of this, the scene feels extra awkward.

There has been a tendency in numerous works of fiction in the West to dumb things down, so to speak. 

I remember Liber Chaotica, a tome which created something of a crude philosophy, but a philosophy and theology nonetheless for each Chaos God in Warhammer setting. If you look at Chaos Gods today, Games Workshop could not care less about philosophy that each Chaos God embodies. They simply no longer care, and one of their top writers even subtly confirmed this as fact about a year or two ago.

Tzimisce are a clan that truly embodies the Becoming. They are the Chrysalis from which all things are possible.  Unfortunately, in reality they often turn out to be a rather shallow disappointment.

But considering that White Wolf has been accused of spreading Neo-Nazi propaganda, a ridiculous thing, I am not surprised that they are probably a bit frightened and cautious of what they are allowed and what they are not allowed to write.

Sources:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/11/rpg-white-wolf-shakeup-following-massive-controversy.html
https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/13/17565898/vampire-the-masquerade-white-wolf-neo-nazi-accusations

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2018, 06:36:11 PM »
Tzimisce are a clan that truly embodies the Becoming. They are the Chrysalis from which all things are possible.  Unfortunately, in reality they often turn out to be a rather shallow disappointment.
It's also worth of note that Metamorphosis is one of the (in not the) cornerstones of gothic literature and poetry. Therefore, it could be said that Tzimisce epitomize Gothic.

As of devs frightened of being considered politically incorrect, ironically enough, that resulted in self-fulfilling prophecy, they've managed to do exactly that in respect of both crowds (transgender people and LGBT) whom they sought to please so hard. Worth mentioning that the latter would be pissed for such a mixup not less, they tend to cling onto their family jewels ever more than straight, which is amusing.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 04:19:05 PM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline The Shadow Man

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 08:28:20 PM »
I should start by saying I've never owned any WoD books and my knowledge of it comes from reading about it online as well as playing Bloodlines and Redemption. Tzmisce do have a bit of a reputation of being silly and over the top. I have heard of this character, not terribly surprised some people are offended by it. There are groups of people who take offence at pretty much anything but then again maybe a Clan of particularly evil vampires isn't the best way to showcase a real life group of people. Thought honestly a vampire who thinks themself above the concept of gender (or whatever the politically correct way of saying this is) has no particular interest to me. Transhumanist or I suppose more accurately transvampirist has potential though in my opinion.

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2018, 10:07:39 PM »
It's also worth of note that Metamorphosis is one of the (in not the) cornerstones of gothic literature and poetry. Therefore, it could be said that Tzimisce epitomizes Gothic.

This interests me, could I trouble you to elaborate a bit?

As of devs frightened of being considered politically incorrect, ironically enough, that resulted in self-fulfilling prophecy, they've managed to do exactly that in respect of both crowds (transgender people and LGBT) whom they sought to please so hard. Worth mentioning that the latter would be pissed for such a mixup not less, they tend to cling onto their family jewels ever more than straight, which is amusing.

Political correctness has come to mean countless thing to countless people. It is also a disease and a blight upon any creative process. We shall see how Werewolf: The Apocalypse game fares. I suspect it will be a something of a signal whether we shall get a new Vampire: The Masquerade game or not.

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 10:46:05 PM »
To put it short, what does it mean to become someone... something else. How does it feel from character's perspective. Not necesarry in literal sense, e.g. human who had become a vampire.
No gothic story is complete without a protagonist or one of leading characters undergoing some kind of profound change from experience.

Quote
For although nepenthe has calmed me, I know always that I am an outsider; a stranger in this century and among those who are still men. This I have known ever since I stretched out my fingers to the abomination within that great gilded frame; stretched out my fingers and touched a cold and unyielding surface of polished glass.

(c) H. P. Lovecraft
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 10:47:57 PM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2018, 11:08:52 PM »
To put it short, what does it mean to become someone... something else. How does it feel from character's perspective. Not necesarry in literal sense, e.g. human who had become a vampire.
No gothic story is complete without a protagonist or one of leading characters undergoing some kind of profound change from experience.

Quote
For although nepenthe has calmed me, I know always that I am an outsider; a stranger in this century and among those who are still men. This I have known ever since I stretched out my fingers to the abomination within that great gilded frame; stretched out my fingers and touched a cold and unyielding surface of polished glass.

(c) H. P. Lovecraft

I am sorry, but I fail to see your point.

The Becoming is a aspect shared by many literary genres, I fail to see why you would consider it  to be the cornerstone of Gothic literature and poetry. Profound change from experience is a quite essential trope once more shared by many literary genres.

But if you can, I would truly love to read your reasoning. This quote of yours is particularly interesting.

Quote
It's also worth of note that Metamorphosis is one of the (in not the) cornerstones of gothic literature and poetry. Therefore, it could be said that Tzimisce epitomizes Gothic.

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 11:31:13 PM »
In different genres, it's just another mean, conversely, in gothic, it's the end, and, oftenly, the whole point of the story. One could think of metamorphism as of normal character development (polymorphism) taken onto the whole new level. Not just any change, a change into something that would not qualify as a former self. Like, who am I? Myself or someone else who carries my memories?
For instance, what had happened to Rovena from the novel by E. A. Poe could be interpreted as if she actually had become Ligeia, or her spiritual successor, at reader's discretion.

Granted, such an element could be used in just about any genre, but it's possible to imagine them without even a lead's character development, not so for this particular one.

Such a topics are often explored in related genres, such as cyberpunk, which could be considered a cross between sci-fi and gothic. For example, a character who was returned from dead by tech as a half-cyborg. Is he the same person indeed, albeit altered, or something else that believes itself so?
As an example, if Shepard from ME2 had questioned one's identity and that was the main focus of the story, it could've qualified as a cyberpunk.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 12:20:39 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2018, 12:20:39 AM »
In different genres, it's just another mean, conversely, in gothic, it's the end, and, oftenly, the whole point of the story. One could think of metamorphism as of normal character development (polymorphism) taken onto the whole new level. Not just any change, a change into something that would not qualify as a former self. Like, who am I? Myself or someone else who carries my memories?
For example, what had happened to Rovena from the novel by E. A. Poe could be interpreted as if she actually had become Ligeia, or her spiritual successor, at reader's discretion.

Granted, such an element could be used in just about any genre, but it's possible to imagine them without even a lead's character development, not so for this particular one.

Such a topics are often explored in related genres, such as cyberpunk, which could be considered a cross between sci-fi and gothic. For example, a character who was returned from dead by tech as a half-cyborg questioning own identity. Is he the same person indeed, albeit altered, or something else that believes itself so?

I believe I see your point.

To me, the symbol of the Tzimisce, the Ouroboros, is the perfect representation of what is the fundamental heart and essence of the Tzimisce. In Gnosticism, Ouroboros represents infinity and eternity, boundless creativity, and also the eternal cycle of life and death. In the terminology of Fera, Ouroboros is the Wyld, the Weaver and the Wyrm combined.

+1 for you

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 12:42:02 AM »
Indeed. Though, I if was to design a logo for myself, I would depict Ouroboros discrete instead of continious. It also represents the illusion of time, and to me, its continuity is also an illusion. It could be thought that I'm constantly being annihilated and rematerialized between moments which are actually retained in memory.
Therefore, the question "if me is really me" is non-existent. It's more important if my successor actually serves the purpose designated by former me... or not. Which is pretty much the same question on the next level.

A few words on Vykos (as he should be, not as he is), the gender concept topic hold some personal interest to me as well, for the reason that I've once realised that what may be roughly called my core identity (which isn't a proper way to put it, since it's impossible to slice a personality into parts) does not include the concept of gender whatsoever. In a nerdy metaphor, like an AI looged into a human shell.
Nothing would've changed if I happened to be of an opposite gender, nothing at all, save a cosmetic details and a few minor concepts. Which could also hold true for another person or not, it's not unlikely that for someone else some gender-related concepts could be considered core.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 01:34:49 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2018, 03:18:48 PM »
Indeed. Though, I if was to design a logo for myself, I would depict Ouroboros discrete instead of continious.

The Tzimisce symbol incorporates both the Ouroboros and the ancient Dragon symbol, because the Tzimisce ancestral homeland is Romania, where the Order of Dragon, Ordo Dracul, was most active after the fall of Constantinople. Contrary to modern propaganda, they were quite a chivalrous knightly order dedicated to protecting Christian lands and Europe in general, from Ottoman invasions. Of course, entire Slavic homeland is a domain of the Tzimisce. 

Not to go full Setite but this is quite fascinating to me. I just want to share this on forum, did you know that almost 70,000 years ago people worshiped the snake in Botswana. The Ouroboros worship is thus perhaps the first deity/concept humanity worshiped.

Source: https://www.apollon.uio.no/english/articles/2006/python-english.html

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2018, 05:20:53 PM »
Sure enough, was thinking about a modern twist on this symbol.

Myself have a theory about historical Vlad Tepes that he had deliberately crafted and cultivated the infamous image which he is known for as a means of demoralization, making use of the Turks' fear of vampires. Should he been like that for real, he would've run out of people rather quickly.
Following the death and rebirth topic, prince Eugene of Savoy was believed by some Turks to have been him who returned from the dead in order to get a revenge on them for being killed. By an uncanny coincidence, he had a skill in handling melee weapons and a taste for ultraviolence that one could expect from a Dark Ages aristocrat (who actually participated in battle on a regular basis unlike their successors). However, unlike Vlad, an unprofessional behavior was the last thing he was known for, on the contrary, he was regarded as a decent person, albeit a bit cold. These tendencies were apparent only during his rather adventurous youth days.

A dark humor in Vlad's tastes indeed, to be reborn as an effeminate bishonen-looking late 17th century noble only in order to kick ass even harder than before. If reincarnation is real is of no importance, for all practical purposes he could be considered such.

By the way, Eugene's drink of choice was what he nicknamed a "melancholy coffee", a coffee with opium. Quite fitting for a human vampire, I should say.

On topic, isn't it ironical that we (me and fictional Vykos) had came to the same realisation thorugh different means (mine was a minor side effect from a drug trip, it was far more interesting than that, but it's a whole another story), but maked diametrally opposite conclusions from it? To me, if gender has nothing to do with personality, there is no reason not to respect the biological, or, if you like, animalistic aspect of me that happens to have an attraction to an opposite gender.

Regarding Ligeia novel that I've mentioned, once wrote a fan fiction on it (in Russian), but never published (and the most probably, never will), seeing that I've exposed too much of original story symbolism that no one to my knowledge, even professional literary specialists and critics ever touched. No bottoms left unscried, everything was reverse engineered and brought to the forefront.
In short, the same storyline, told in a different fashion both from protagonist's and (surprise) lady Rovena's perspectives.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 01:39:01 AM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2018, 10:23:04 AM »
Myself have a theory about historical Vlad Tepes that he had deliberately crafted and cultivated the infamous image which he is known for as a means of demoralization, making use of the Turks' fear of vampires. Should he been like that for real, he would've run out of people rather quickly.
Following the death and rebirth topic, prince Eugene of Savoy was believed by some Turks to have been him who returned from the dead in order to get a revenge on them for being killed. By an uncanny coincidence, he had a skill in handling melee weapons and a taste for ultraviolence that one could expect from a Dark Ages aristocrat (who actually particiated in battle on a regular basis unlike their successors). However, unlike Vlad, an unprofessional behavior was the last thing he was known for, on the contrary, he was regarded as a decent person, albeit a bit cold. These tendencies were apparent only during his rather adventurous youth days.

It should be noted that majority of criticism of Vlad TepeŇ° came from his enemies. In modern world, we would call such things gossip or slander. I remember reading years ago a diary from some Croatian monk, whose name I forgot. But basically, he toured Wallachia and came to the following conclusion. The stories of Vlad cruelty towards his people were a complete fabrication. Wallachia economically and demographically prospered during his reign. He was, however, cruel beyond measure to empires that sought to invade Wallachia, such as Ottoman empire. A true Tzimisce.

Quote
On topic, isn't it ironical that we (me and fictional Vykos) had came to the same realisation thorugh different means (mine was a minor side effect from a drug trip, it was far more interesting than that, but it's a whole another story), but maked diametrally opposite conclusions from it?

To what conclusion did Vykos come to?

Offline deicide

  • Drug Fiend
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2018, 11:49:47 AM »
He was, however, cruel beyond measure to empires that sought to invade Wallachia, such as Ottoman empire. A true Tzimisce.
Which is another example of his sense of humour, let them taste their own medicine if they like such a form of execution that much.

As for the second question, apparently that he/she/it should turn itself into a Mr./Ms./whatever Fanservice and stop caring with whom it lays with. I suggested that it could have been something more interesting than the former.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 12:30:08 PM by deicide »
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Aurelian

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
Re: Sasha Vykos: a fan disservice and yet another wasted character
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2018, 11:49:17 PM »
Which is another example of his sense of humour, let them taste their own medicine if they like such a form of execution that much.

Indeed.

Could you check your private messages section of the forum? I sent you a message.