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Offline crescentgemini

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Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« on: May 11, 2017, 03:16:51 AM »
Greetings,

I've had a story-line kicking inside my brain for a while now loosely based on the concept of Gehenna: Something down the lines of a renegade (or rather independent) Tzimisce embracing a young WW2 field surgeon.

This Tzimisce having one purpose: to prevent Gehenna. And how would he do such a thing? Well, Gehenna keeps mentioning, as one of the upcoming signs, the dilution of Cain's blood and another, the rising of the Antediluvians. So his idea would be to unify the bloodlines, one way or another, to prevent Gehenna or even perhaps to match the antediluvians and therefor saving all cainites and ensuring their future, hence therefor progress, change... Sort of. This tzimisce, this sire, would be aware of the new age of modern technology, science and medicine, and he would also accept his "inability" to adapt (like most of his clan in this 20th and 21st century), a keystone motto of the Tzimisce clan, rendering him "unacceptable", unchanging, like a stagnant pond, where once water streamed through it, and now it is faced with the dread possibility of drying up. So his plan would be to let his childe learn all he can from him and if this childe is deemed worthy and well versed in the new ways of kine, the sire would give his strength willingly to his childe, all for the greater good and mostly for the progress of change, as Abel and Seth's Children are going trough... Now the childe would learn all he has to from his sire for this purpose;  the history of vampires, their origins, the different clans, past and present, and potential future threat: the Antediluvians or, in other words, Gehenna. Also, this childe, as early mentioned, would be a WW2 medical officer, but he would have be somewhat similar, by personality, to the ideals of the Tzimisce: driven so much by his... Profession, by the desire to preserve or even ENHANCE life, that he would willingly ignore the Hippocratic Oath, no matter the price : "First do no harm" (somehow, after much consideration, I feel such resolve and ideals would be appropriate for a member of the Nazi's SS, or at least someone somewhat embracing or at least considering the concept of Arianism, in one way or the other, or maybe Darwinism, as in "survival of the fittest"). Anyway, based off a plan tought to him the his sire, this childe would be taught  as much as possible about the other clans and would probably seek to make alliances, working and threading through the already existing sects and faction. If he cannot gain their help, he would most likely seek their blood.

Now my question is this : Would it be possible for a Tzimisce to diablerise a member of the Tremere in order to gain thaumaturgy in order to better refine his vicissitude and perhaps even expand it beyond mere flesh and bone carving, to pehaps even reach a point where he could merge bloodlines and so on? I don't know why exactly, but I feel that in my "story-line", it would benefit the new tzimsce and could be a possibility, or at least, getting the cooperation of a tremere, even though I am aware that cooperation may not be an option, hence the primary idea of Diablerie, would be beneficial for his (or his past master's) purpose.


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Offline Radical21

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 05:16:08 AM »
Technically yes,  a Tzimisce could hypothetically diablerize a Tremere but you should consider the following things:

Tremere are the youngest clan on the scene: finding a low generation Tremere is not so easy so most capable kindred wouldn't consider diablerizing a tremere worth it in most circumstances due to the risks of diablerie.

Tremere usually have high willpower due to their practice of Thaumaturgy so the chances of defeating them in the contest of will following diablerie are low and its more likely the Diablerist body would be overtaken by the persona of the one they diablerized.

 I should also mention that Tremere are only found in the Camarilla and under most circumstance its unlikely that they would engage Sabbat so directly considering that they have Thaumaturgy and its rituals at their disposal as well as Gargoyles..
There were Tremere Antitribu which is how Thaumaturgy got passed to the Sabbat but they are now considered extinct.


You don't have to have tremere blood to learn thaumaturgy
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 05:21:27 AM by Radical21 »

Offline crescentgemini

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2017, 07:25:17 PM »
Oooh... Why thank yah, that simplifies the storyline a bit... But would it be possible for a less then a century old Tzimisce trained by his sire in all this one knew to later diablerize him to have a certain mastery of Thaumatrogy that could allow the possibility of merging/concentrating (reduce generation)/creating bloodlines?
Know thyself and the parcels of thou's surrounding, for thou art but the sum.

Offline chowmanfu

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2017, 06:25:49 PM »
Consider most that Tremere became vampires by diablerie through the Salubri. They are unoriginal vampires.

Offline Rubinia

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 09:33:16 AM »
How did it happen that Tremere Antitribu died out? They seem to be pretty tough, and in Sabbat mindset especially dangerous. Was it that Tsimitsce wiped them out because of old grudges between clans?
"Having created something so extraordinary one would die happy, if one died."

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Offline Radical21

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2017, 04:13:17 AM »
Tremere himself wiped them all out in one go (or at least most of them if you want to be one of these special players who want to play the last Tremere antitribu that didn't show up to the meeting).

Offline Rubinia

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 07:57:33 AM »
Ah. Typical bloody wedding. I guess Sabbat vampires should be wise enough to not to catch the hook, but well, they were newcomers in vampiric world anyway. It would be still more rightous if they managed to kill Tremere, because of their greater numbers, like those 3th generation of ordinary clans did with 2th generation (or at least the vamp myth says).

Thanks for feedback!
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Offline IanW

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2017, 06:37:29 PM »
How did it happen that Tremere Antitribu died out? They seem to be pretty tough, and in Sabbat mindset especially dangerous. Was it that Tsimitsce wiped them out because of old grudges between clans?

Vampire metaplot is complicated. I'll try and break it down.

Originally the Tremere were House Tremere, a group of hermetic sorcerers. They thought magic was dying, and their longevity potions were wearing off, so they looked for a replacement: vampirism.

Their original experiments were on Tzimisce, since House Tremere's centre of operations was in Tzimisce territory. So the core circle of Tremere turned themselves into vampires magically by using Tzimisce blood. This is the main reason the Tzimisce have a grudge against the Tremere. (Another reason: Tzimisce voivodes were some of the best undead wizards, then the Tremere came along and stole their thunder.)

In order to quickly bolster their power, the Tremere needed to find an Antediluvian, one of the ancient clan founders, and diablerize him to steal his power. This would legitimize the Tremere as a real clan and not some weird tiny bloodline like the Nagaraja (who were likewise mortal sorcerers who turned themselves into vampires).

So they found Saulot, the founder of the Salubri. Actually, Saulot wanted to be found. When you diablerize someone, you drink in their soul, and an Antediluvian's soul is very powerful indeed. Saulot figured it'd be a cinch to take over the mind and body of this upstart little wizard/vampire in order to use the Tremere for his own goals.

He was wrong. Tremere's mind ended up being way more powerful than Saulot had thought. So the two mentally battled for a while over control of the body.

Meanwhile, Tremere's two lieutenants, Etrius and Goratrix, ran the clan. After a few centuries, and after the Camarilla and Sabbat had been founded, Goratrix defected to the Sabbat. He called his underlings "House Goratrix" but everyone else just calls them Tremere antitribu.

In about 1999, after about 900 years of fighting, Saulot finally "won," and Tremere's mind was kicked out of his own body. He found his way into Goratrix's body, and trapped Goratrix's mind in a mirror.

Tremere-as-Goratrix summoned all of the Tremere antitribu together into one location, and performed a great ritual. This ritual sacrificed all of the antitribu, turning them into ash. Tremere was the only survivor.

I don't recall if the purpose of the ritual was ever revealed, but speculation had it that Tremere enacted a ritual to bump himself back up to Antediluvian-levels of power in order to be able to defeat Saulot and get his body back.

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Offline Rubinia

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 07:43:39 PM »
A bit complicated, a bit strange, but plausible story. It doesn't pay to be a wizard apprentice, you're first to be sacrificed. Expendable as Nostromo's crew. Anyway, I've always disliked Tremere clan and their founder seems especially nasty. What a world (of darkness)!

Voivode? Funny thing to see it written such. In my language it's wojewoda. Masquarade Games has the issue of ranks, titles and such and incorporate them often in a weird way. The Szlachta as sad, deformed monsters is quite a good example. On the other hand we have there barons and princes, not out of lineage but from the "job". Hence I wonder if the games-makers do it on purpose of learning kids some new foreign terms or they just throw things in to make game stuffy and (in a way) inspiring.
"Having created something so extraordinary one would die happy, if one died."

"One is the path of a man, straight and plain: the never ending Crossroads."

Offline Radical21

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Re: Question: Diablerie = Tzimisce Diablerising Tremere
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 01:28:09 AM »
I don't recall if the purpose of the ritual was ever revealed, but speculation had it that Tremere enacted a ritual to bump himself back up to Antediluvian-levels of power in order to be able to defeat Saulot and get his body back.

You read too much white wolf wiki , purpose was to punish the antitribu clan after they fulfilled their goal of assimilating the Sabbat's style of Thaumaturgy and seeding some of their own:  Makes the original Clan Tremere more important players in the Camarilla side of the Jyhad.

 

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