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PNP Roleplay => Interactive Story Board => Canadian Motorcycle Assassin Circus by Night => Topic started by: Radical21 on April 23, 2011, 02:00:31 AM

Title: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on April 23, 2011, 02:00:31 AM
Currently under OWoD rules only characters with Driving skill 1+ can drive a car.
In NWoD the Driving Skill is used only to perform cool driving tricks but otherwise everyone can drive a car with ease.

Since it seems there is no consensus about this I'll let majority decide
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: _username on April 23, 2011, 02:25:51 AM
In Canada (like the US, and perhaps unlike many other nations) the majority of people over 20 have a driver's license and can drive a car without any trouble.  North America is massive and very spread out...if you can't drive, you can't do do much as an adult.  I think that was the logic behind the NWoD mechanic.  For that reason, I think it's more fair to assume that all of the characters (unless they are not raised in Canada) can safely drive a car, licensed or not.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on April 23, 2011, 03:16:51 AM
Fair enough but does that mean we do away with the driving skill as something to be used in an NWoDish fashion? doesn't that mean everyone want a refund on their driving skill if it turns into something that only comes in handy in an A-team Car-chase action? 
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 23, 2011, 04:00:15 AM
Skills > Driving > No dots

"Skills are Abilities learned through training, apprencticeship, and other instruction. If you try to perform an action involving a Skill in which you have no rating, your difficulty is increased by one." - Vampire: The Masquerade, pg. 123

Just because someone has no dots in Drive doesn't mean they can't operate a car or other vehicle ever never at all. It just means they're not specialized at it, or haven't practiced. In this case, you roll only the appropriate Attribute at a +1 difficulty rating.
So a (Wits + Drive) roll, to swerve out of the way of a tree, difficulty 7, becomes (Wits), difficulty 8.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on April 23, 2011, 04:46:46 AM
Skills > Driving > No dots

"Skills are Abilities learned through training, apprencticeship, and other instruction. If you try to perform an action involving a Skill in which you have no rating, your difficulty is increased by one." - Vampire: The Masquerade, pg. 123

Just because someone has no dots in Drive doesn't mean they can't operate a car or other vehicle ever never at all. It just means they're not specialized at it, or haven't practiced. In this case, you roll only the appropriate Attribute at a +1 difficulty rating.
So a (Wits + Drive) roll, to swerve out of the way of a tree, difficulty 7, becomes (Wits), difficulty 8.

Yeah I know that rule Rick, the discussion is about the description of the Driving Skill  p.124 which clearly states that the driving skill is also used to determine the type of vehicle you can drive and the level of proficiency in which you can drive it.

Normally it wouldn't serve my story to have characters roll for driving  but there are cases where it matters like driving drunk, slippery roads, losing a tail etc.. and of course the classic Car Accident guilt embrace that will be irrelevant if characters auto-succeed on driving in all cases.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Isador on April 23, 2011, 02:01:38 PM
I think we should keep the driving skill, as (while i doubt anyone has more then 2 points in it) it's still a nice measuring tool for determining who's the best driver among several individuals, players or not.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Malavis on April 24, 2011, 06:25:31 AM
I made Burke to be a bit of the drivy type with a fancy sportscar ;) So he's driving. haha
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on April 24, 2011, 01:39:41 PM
ok I guess we can change it to the way NWoD works then since that is the most simple way to change it
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: VentrueIan on April 24, 2011, 04:24:45 PM
While it has been rare, I have indeed known people that don't drive, and we aren't talking about gets that just haven't gotten it yet,  I mean grown women who never felt they had the need to. I've known several people from New York that don't know how to drive because they've never needed to, the subway worked fine their whole life, why take up an extra bill? Now all of a sudden you would have a character who's never been behind a wheel driving as well as someone that went through drivers ed, which could have otherwise made for a plot device.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on April 24, 2011, 06:04:14 PM
While it has been rare, I have indeed known people that don't drive, and we aren't talking about gets that just haven't gotten it yet,  I mean grown women who never felt they had the need to. I've known several people from New York that don't know how to drive because they've never needed to, the subway worked fine their whole life, why take up an extra bill? Now all of a sudden you would have a character who's never been behind a wheel driving as well as someone that went through drivers ed, which could have otherwise made for a plot device.

I'm considering adding a Houserule Flaw :
Can't drive Vehicles (-1)  to fix that issue.
my only problem with this flaw is that its fairly easy to get by without driving car in most environments so the flaw barely earns its 1 point..
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: VentrueIan on April 24, 2011, 07:31:52 PM
In mage in werewolf, it wouldn't be a problem at all, to a vampire, it really would be. Why? Taxi fees add up quick, and buses stop running between 9pm and midnight depending on the bus route. If they have to get there fast to help someone thats in an emergency, inconvenience could be that the taxi took an hour to respond, not to mention they have no idea how long a taxi will take to respond. What if its an hour from daylight, and they aren't near home yet, now when they call that taxi they're gonna be stressing, it may be the last call they make.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on April 24, 2011, 07:51:06 PM
In mage in werewolf, it wouldn't be a problem at all, to a vampire, it really would be. Why? Taxi fees add up quick, and buses stop running between 9pm and midnight depending on the bus route. If they have to get there fast to help someone thats in an emergency, inconvenience could be that the taxi took an hour to respond, not to mention they have no idea how long a taxi will take to respond. What if its an hour from daylight, and they aren't near home yet, now when they call that taxi they're gonna be stressing, it may be the last call they make.

Thats why vampires have retainers
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Isador on April 24, 2011, 09:49:46 PM
In mage in werewolf, it wouldn't be a problem at all, to a vampire, it really would be. Why? Taxi fees add up quick, and buses stop running between 9pm and midnight depending on the bus route. If they have to get there fast to help someone thats in an emergency, inconvenience could be that the taxi took an hour to respond, not to mention they have no idea how long a taxi will take to respond. What if its an hour from daylight, and they aren't near home yet, now when they call that taxi they're gonna be stressing, it may be the last call they make.

Thats why vampires have retainers

Skipping the first, replace all "taxi"'s with "retainer(s)"
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Aydoo on April 27, 2011, 05:54:39 PM
I took Driving to signify that Gwen would be able to Drive if needed I really think the skill should reflect the aptitude. While someone with 0 Drive can ATTEMPT to Drive a car, it doesn't mean they would be able to do it. Basically its something that could be roleplayed real easy.

For example: Gary gets in a car with 0 Drive and 3 Wits. He decides he's going to Drive a few blocks. He rolls his 3d10 at a higher difficulty. If he succeeds he should roleplay the "figuring out how it works" part and haphazardly drive the car to his destination. Otherwise if he fails well that brake pedal sure looked like a gas pedal. This allows those whom have taken the skill to actually reflect on their aptitudes better and balance the game out pending on who actually knows what. I do know quite a few people who have never driven, and wouldn't know how and thus be Drive 0

Another thing you could look at is using Drive to determine difficulty and just use Wits to determine the roll. Thus it could be Difficulty 10 - Drive Skill (thus 5 Drive would be a Diff 5 and you'd roll Wits to succeed.) This gives everyone the chance to "attempt" it despite their knowledge, with varying degrees of success.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on April 27, 2011, 07:26:33 PM
I did say I would give people a chance to attempt, I just said there is still a chance at Failure where some disagree on the assumption that driving is so basic second nature for people in the US.

In programming terms my original idea can be described as :

If (Driving =< Car_Requirement)        Then       Roll Driving+Wits (Difficulty:6 - (Driving skill))

Success means you drive safely , Failure means you get pulled over by Police or stuck, Botch means Accident.

Again this only for Vehicle types that are above your driving skill levels(I.E trying to drive a Manual Gears car when you only know how to drive Automatic)
In some cases I may not do the roll because rolling is only for cases where there is potential conflict or expected Difficulty that calls for it.

Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: VentrueIan on April 27, 2011, 07:39:11 PM
In mage in werewolf, it wouldn't be a problem at all, to a vampire, it really would be. Why? Taxi fees add up quick, and buses stop running between 9pm and midnight depending on the bus route. If they have to get there fast to help someone thats in an emergency, inconvenience could be that the taxi took an hour to respond, not to mention they have no idea how long a taxi will take to respond. What if its an hour from daylight, and they aren't near home yet, now when they call that taxi they're gonna be stressing, it may be the last call they make.

Thats why vampires have retainers

Tell me, how many retainers are gangrel and brujah known for having? Nor does that answer to those that live in cities were the need to drive doesn't come up. Not to mention is the car a stick shift? Because if they don't know how to drive a stick shift theirs a good chance they won't make it out of the parking lot with out killing it. With an automatic, I'm all for giving them an effective 1pt, for a stick shift...not so much.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on April 27, 2011, 07:55:20 PM

Tell me, how many retainers are gangrel and brujah known for having? Nor does that answer to those that live in cities were the need to drive doesn't come up.

Is that a trick question? Gangrel and Brujah are Clans, if you like to Stereotype characters thats your own choice, they can have as many Retainers as suitable.

What do you mean by doesn't answer to those that live in cities where the need to drive doesn't come up? In that case there is no problem.

Stick-shift is annoying but its not learning C# in 5 mins,  if you figure out how a Stick-shift works(I agree that its not very intuitive with pressing and releasing the clutch and all) you can drive it awkwardly and maybe the clutch slips since you are not used to it. 
but figuring out how to start driving it only happens once and its still not rocket science...


Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Rick Gentle on April 27, 2011, 10:18:35 PM
For the sake of fullness, Gangrel can fall back on Protean - Earth Meld to sleep away the day, Shapeshifting into a "flight" form for quicker travel - so they don't often need modern conveniences like cars. I don't think Beckett knows how to drive.
On the other hand, Rick Gentle has a dot or two in Drive, because he was raised in an urban environment which DIDN'T have all the handy-dandy public transportation (Los Angeles), and he could go more places with a car than he could either by foot or by said public transportation.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: VentrueIan on April 28, 2011, 08:46:33 AM

Tell me, how many retainers are gangrel and brujah known for having? Nor does that answer to those that live in cities were the need to drive doesn't come up.

Is that a trick question? Gangrel and Brujah are Clans, if you like to Stereotype characters thats your own choice, they can have as many Retainers as suitable.

What do you mean by doesn't answer to those that live in cities where the need to drive doesn't come up? In that case there is no problem.

Stick-shift is annoying but its not learning C# in 5 mins,  if you figure out how a Stick-shift works(I agree that its not very intuitive with pressing and releasing the clutch and all) you can drive it awkwardly and maybe the clutch slips since you are not used to it. 
but figuring out how to start driving it only happens once and its still not rocket science...

Its just as much of a stereotype to assume they do all have retainers. In fact, an example from bloodlines, skelter seems against the idea alltogether.

And back to those in the city where its unnecessary, part of the plot could be having them displaced. IE, grew up and was embraced and lived most of your existence in new york, due to a misunderstanding your on the run and need to get out of town. My god man, use your imagination for a minute.

I drive stick, I know its not rocket science. However if your trying to learn while being chased by people who are trying to kill you, its not going to go well. Even if you get moving, it takes one slip up (which is common as shit when people are getting used to stick shift) of letting up on the clutch without your foot on the gas for the car to die, at which point chaser is gaining massive ground with their sulfur guns getting in range.... If they're trying to learn at the beginning of a road trip, there is a strong chance the transmission won't make the trip. Will this happen all the time? No, but this is WHY there are skill points to check. If they don't, instead of acting like the car is the only option and getting away with it due to this magical baic driving knowledge were supposed to have, they should be forced to get creative and use the skills they DO have.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Isador on April 28, 2011, 06:25:45 PM
I am currently actually getting driving lessons, and not in an automatic.

If you never drove a car with a stick and suddenly have to jump in one and get it going, trust me, thats going to take you more effort then you'd expect, especially if there's no one telling you what you're doing wrong. The sheer amount of tries you'd have to take to get just the right feel for it without prior instruction will most likely take so long that if someone's pursuing you on foot and you have about 100 meters worth of distance between him and you, he'll have enough time to walk up to the car, take out his key chain, go through EVERY SINGLE KEY to get to the right one, casually open the door, and then proceed to beat your face in with the steering wheel.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Friktion on April 29, 2011, 06:36:06 AM
You guys seem to be throwing in a whole heck of a lot of "ifs" and extra conditions, but let me ask you this.

Assuming you have never learned how to drive a car and never driven a car before, how hard would it be for you to get in the driver seat and drive to the store?

No car chases, no fights, no problems.  Just on the fly figuring out how to work the gas, the brake, and the steering wheel.

I'm willing to bet that any individual of normal intelligence and functioning can do this without any prior instruction, just by imitating what he saw on television and very simple and brief trial and error.  Or in game terms: wits.  Once we get fancy (ie: stick shift, trucks, car chase, fancy maneuvers) they need some actual learned skill.  Or in game terms: drive.

That's how I see it.

Now if you're character is 400 years old or has a fear of technology or is blind or has fish fins for hands or whatever, yeah special rules apply.  But I think for the overwhelming majority of us, it's no big deal.

If you put points in drive that's because you want your character to have some extra skills like being able to tail someone or avoid being tailed or what not.  If you didn't then you're just average Joe in a car.
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on May 01, 2011, 01:01:33 AM
You guys seem to be throwing in a whole heck of a lot of "ifs" and extra conditions, but let me ask you this.

Assuming you have never learned how to drive a car and never driven a car before, how hard would it be for you to get in the driver seat and drive to the store?

No car chases, no fights, no problems.  Just on the fly figuring out how to work the gas, the brake, and the steering wheel.

I'm willing to bet that any individual of normal intelligence and functioning can do this without any prior instruction, just by imitating what he saw on television and very simple and brief trial and error.  Or in game terms: wits.  Once we get fancy (ie: stick shift, trucks, car chase, fancy maneuvers) they need some actual learned skill.  Or in game terms: drive.

With a stick shift? no way(And in my experience most lame second-hand budget cars are Stick-shift)... On automatic maybe there is a shot, and only if you can somehow anticipate the car speed and maneuvering and not run into other cars which is not so easy for people with no practice..
If it was that easy Driving instructors would be out of a job a long time ago and car accidents wouldn't happen..
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Aydoo on May 02, 2011, 07:50:19 PM
Ok! This is in regards to the PM I just sent Rad, but I had another idea. What if we change Drive to work like Linguistics?

Even with 0 Linguistics you know how to read/write one language fluently. Each additional dot adds more languages as well as knowledge ABOUT languages in regards to rolling for getting information from someone/writing that is in another language.

So with Drive 0 you would be able to efficiantly be able to Drive your generic Automatic 4 wheeled vehicle. With Drive 1 you would have the ability to Drive another type of vehicle for example: Standard Shift 4 Wheel Vehicle, Motorbike, 4Wheeler ATV, 18Wheeler, Bulldozer, etc etc.

Each additional dot of Drive after the first adds another 2 Vehicles so it would look like this.

Drive 1:  +1 Additional Vehicle (2 Total)
Drive 2: (Drive 1) +2 Additional Vehicles (4 Total)
Drive 3: (Drive 1+2) +2 Additional Vehicles (6 Total)
Drive 4: (Drive 1+2+3) +2 Additional Vehicles (8 Total)
Drive 5: (Drive 1+2+3+4) +2 Additional Vehicles (10 Total)

This allows players to "fluently" control different types of machinery in a relatively realistically way, and then you can use the Drive skill with Wits for all "maneuvers" such as Tailing someone or "stunt" driving.


As far as super older pre-tech elders go, there has always been a type of vehicle as in horse drawn carts and carriages and other such things. This could be reflected with the 0 drive skill, since that would have been prevelant in their time period. I'd put this under Drive due to the fact that you aren't "riding" the horse so it doesn't fall under Ride. You are Driving the carriage/wagon and the horse is the "engine."
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Radical21 on May 02, 2011, 11:16:02 PM
So are you saying that every person learns how to drive in first grade?
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Rick Gentle on May 02, 2011, 11:54:29 PM
THAT would lead to some interesting times on the playground!   :cometome:
Title: Re: The Driving Question
Post by: Friktion on May 03, 2011, 12:07:12 AM
I think he means that we assume that any regular person of legal driving age can at least drive an automatic.  If a character for some reason didn't want their character to drive or know how to drive (wealthy, poor, or old) we just add that as a story element instead of a skill.
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