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Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines => Bloodlines Tech Support => Topic started by: Emeus on May 21, 2019, 07:43:33 PM

Title: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on May 21, 2019, 07:43:33 PM
The rest abilities in dominate are reversed back, except for this one. This "Command" ability make NPCs dance or trance, but unlike trance, dancing NPC still maintain their sight, and it will be a disaster while you're sneaking, made your target dance literally means reload your game. Seriously, why it's still there, yes it looks cool but this is a dominate ability not a dementation one, "I'm asking you to go trance but wth are you dancing?!"
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on May 21, 2019, 08:00:12 PM
This "Command" ability make NPCs dance or trance, but unlike trance, dancing NPC still maintain their sight, and it will be a disaster while you're sneaking, made your target dance literally means reload your game.

What happens when the dancing is over? Didn't you have time to sneak away?
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on May 23, 2019, 02:35:44 AM
What happens when the dancing is over? Didn't you have time to sneak away?

No, they awake right up, full with their sight, and sometimes you get exposed immediately right after commanded a dance.

Not to mention there are situations which need you to trance 2 people together to sneak away, making one of them dance then it's time to reload, and perhaps again later.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on May 23, 2019, 08:04:09 AM
No, they awake right up, full with their sight, and sometimes you get exposed immediately right after commanded a dance.

As far as I know people should awake out of a Trance at the same time full with their sight. Or does this not happen?
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on May 24, 2019, 07:54:45 PM
As far as I know people should awake out of a Trance at the same time full with their sight. Or does this not happen?
Yes, what I'm saying is they still have sight WHILE dancing, not after the effect wore off.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on May 24, 2019, 09:06:15 PM
Yes, what I'm saying is they still have sight WHILE dancing, not after the effect wore off.

And this is a problem why? Because they should as disoriented after the discipline ends and not remember where you went...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on May 25, 2019, 02:52:23 AM
And this is a problem why? Because they should as disoriented after the discipline ends and not remember where you went...
Because when they saw you, others nearby are alerted as well, all of them will come straight after you. It also ruins quests that have requirement for PC not being sighted, and rarely, to steal something without trigger hostility. Lastly, feeding, trance someone then you can feed in front of their face, dance however, reload.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on May 25, 2019, 09:33:02 AM
Because when they saw you, others nearby are alerted as well, all of them will come straight after you. It also ruins quests that have requirement for PC not being sighted, and rarely, to steal something without trigger hostility. Lastly, feeding, trance someone then you can feed in front of their face, dance however, reload.

Hm, this makes the game harder indeed. In the next patch version it will get even worse as I restored some other random effects of command, like the enemies will flee or cower in fear. This is how Troika planned it to be before they replaced all of it with the overpowered Trance solution. Maybe you need to upgrade and use sleep instead, this works perfectly...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on May 25, 2019, 04:47:35 PM
Hm, this makes the game harder indeed. In the next patch version it will get even worse as I restored some other random effects of command, like the enemies will flee or cower in fear. This is how Troika planned it to be before they replaced all of it with the overpowered Trance solution. Maybe you need to upgrade and use sleep instead, this works perfectly...
Sleep is reversed back to Suicide in 10.3 :(
About cower and flee, in my opinion, if cowering do not maintain sight, and flee does not make people run onto you, then they are better than dance, because dance almost does nothing. So please Wesp5, if you have to do it, exclude dance, or make them dance with eyes closed D:
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on May 25, 2019, 05:01:55 PM
Sleep is reversed back to Suicide in 10.3 :(

Sleep will be back in 10.4 and will then again be the best Dominate level for non detection runs!

Quote
About cower and flee, in my opinion, if cowering do not maintain sight, and flee does not make people run onto you, then they are better than dance, because dance almost does nothing.

Sadly, I don't know how to turn sight on on off during these actions, so this might end up random as originally intended. After all Sleep is rather superfluous, if cheaper Trance does the same.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Malkav on May 25, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Why should Dominate be random? Randomness is appropriate for Dementation, but imo not for Dominate which is about control, and therefore must start with the user's selfcontrol.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on May 26, 2019, 09:32:02 AM
Why should Dominate be random? Randomness is appropriate for Dementation, but imo not for Dominate which is about control, and therefore must start with the user's selfcontrol.

This is how Troika planned it. Unless they had another mechanism to switch inside of one level of a discipline to different options. At least EntenSchreck thought so, who build this for me...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Pumma on May 27, 2019, 08:18:53 AM
Why should Dominate be random? Randomness is appropriate for Dementation, but imo not for Dominate which is about control, and therefore must start with the user's selfcontrol.

Yes, but the PC is quite inexperienced in using such a powerful and tricky discipline as Dominate so the randomness could fly for Level 1. And more over there is no need for the Dominate Discipline to be more powerful as it is at the moment (Sleep as Level 3). Also Dominate and Dementation are quite similar and I would say that the latter is somehow twisted Malkavian version of the former.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on May 29, 2019, 12:48:28 AM
Yes, but the PC is quite inexperienced in using such a powerful and tricky discipline as Dominate so the randomness could fly for Level 1. And more over there is no need for the Dominate Discipline to be more powerful as it is at the moment (Sleep as Level 3). Also Dominate and Dementation are quite similar and I would say that the latter is somehow twisted Malkavian version of the former.
On the other hand, lvl 1 dementation only has 2 random effects, 4 in dominate is a little bit... too inexperienced imo.
Perhaps both abilities could have a rework of their lvl 2, they are useless in most of time.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Pumma on May 30, 2019, 05:43:54 AM
About cower and flee, in my opinion, if cowering do not maintain sight, and flee does not make people run onto you, then they are better than dance, because dance almost does nothing.

Sadly, I don't know how to turn sight on on off during these actions, so this might end up random as originally intended. After all Sleep is rather superfluous, if cheaper Trance does the same.

Not only Sleep will be superfluous but also Level 2 Brainwipe will be superfluous. In fact Command is related to giving a single command and not to make the PC invisible or the NPC to forget and as you already said Troika made it too overpowered. I would prefer if you could remove the Trance part completely and leave only the simple commands which do not make level 2 and 3 superfluous. Now Dominate is too powerful with Mass Suicide which is like Level 7 discipline in the P&P game.

Yes, but the PC is quite inexperienced in using such a powerful and tricky discipline as Dominate so the randomness could fly for Level 1. And more over there is no need for the Dominate Discipline to be more powerful as it is at the moment (Sleep as Level 3). Also Dominate and Dementation are quite similar and I would say that the latter is somehow twisted Malkavian version of the former.
On the other hand, lvl 1 dementation only has 2 random effects, 4 in dominate is a little bit... too inexperienced imo.
Perhaps both abilities could have a rework of their lvl 2, they are useless in most of time.

No it's not. The Troika Command is too powerful and not according to the P&P discipline. P&P Command do not include Brainwipe which is level 3 in the P&P and the PC needs eye contact to use dominate so it's cannot be used for sneaking. It's good that Wesp fixed this issue. So the randomness is the only way for more types of commands and is OK in my book (even if it has more effects than Dementation) and Trance do not fit in single word command. So use Brainwipe or Sleep or simple Sneaking - it's easy even in UP+.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Malkav on May 30, 2019, 09:29:58 AM
Pumma, I can in no way agree with you. A computer game has quite different possibilities and limitations than p&p. So the disciplines have to be adapted to be useful within the limitations of the computer game.
Since you can't use command p&p like to make someone open a door or drop their weapon, the computer game nneds something tangible like trance.
Anyway, level 2, brainwipe is completely useless, so you can't make level 1 useless as well.

And compared to thaumaturgy (except for level 1) all disciplines are somewhat weak. But I have never heard any complaints about the bloody mages being too strong...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on May 30, 2019, 12:15:44 PM
Anyway, level 2, brainwipe is completely useless, so you can't make level 1 useless as well.

Brainwipe is only useless, because Trance does the same for less blood. With command being kind of random, Brainwipe makes sense...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wilhelm Streicher 19 on May 30, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
Pumma, I can in no way agree with you. A computer game has quite different possibilities and limitations than p&p. So the disciplines have to be adapted to be useful within the limitations of the computer game.
Since you can't use command p&p like to make someone open a door or drop their weapon, the computer game nneds something tangible like trance.
Well they chance this for Bloodlines 2. ;)
https://www.bloodlines2.com/en/ventrue

But you are right for 2004. Troika couldnĀ“t do that at this time.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Pumma on May 30, 2019, 07:40:11 PM
Pumma, I can in no way agree with you. A computer game has quite different possibilities and limitations than p&p. So the disciplines have to be adapted to be useful within the limitations of the computer game.
Since you can't use command p&p like to make someone open a door or drop their weapon, the computer game nneds something tangible like trance.
Anyway, level 2, brainwipe is completely useless, so you can't make level 1 useless as well.

And compared to thaumaturgy (except for level 1) all disciplines are somewhat weak. But I have never heard any complaints about the bloody mages being too strong...

Wesp already answered about the usefulness but I will be a little bit blunt. Of course Discipline powers should be useful but also graded because this is a RPG (computer or P&P doesn't matter) and you should have development of the PC, of the skills, disciplines and whatever is there. If there is not development the higher levels will be no more useful than the lower levels and than the upper levels become useless. I agree that you cannot transfer P&P one to one, but you should have a graded logic for the development of a discipline and Trance is something of a lesser version of Possession and thus too powerful for Level 1 and makes Level 2 and 3 useless. By your logic god mod could be useful so why don't we put it as skill or discipline instead of cheat?! Thaumathurgy level 4 had mass effect and now is changed which makes it weaker but I didn't raised a voice for returning of the Vanilla power. I don't see a point in wanting omnipotent disciplines, it's boring. Just use different approaches for different situations - there is enough XP to develop different skills and tactics. It's more fun that way or at least for me.
By the way the "bloody mages" also have Dominate so by making Dominate more powerful you make them more powerful as well. Ventrue also has Fortitude and Presence both quite powerful especially Fortitude, and Presence is better than Auspex nevertheless it's a little bit bugged. So Ventrue is in no way weaker than Tremere and I don't understand this desire for having an afternoon walk and calling it gaming. A little or a bigger challenge won't hurt especially after so many years.
 
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Malkav on May 31, 2019, 08:57:05 AM
If you want to power down level 1 find something for level 2 that isn't complete crap. A discipline with both level 1 and 2 useless is not worth playing.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wilhelm Streicher 19 on June 01, 2019, 12:40:20 AM
Brainwipe is only useless, because Trance does the same for less blood. With command being kind of random, Brainwipe makes sense...
Maybe a longer duration could help Brainwipe? With only 5sec is this barely useful. 
Its more more efficient to use Command twice on two enemies than one time Brainwipe. Especially if the playercharacter is sneaking.
It should be atleast 10 sec.

Overall i like the Command changes but maybe the naming it Command could be a bit misleading. Maybe Mesmerize would be a better name
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on June 01, 2019, 02:11:16 AM
Brainwipe is only useless, because Trance does the same for less blood. With command being kind of random, Brainwipe makes sense...
With that range and duration? Nah. After command got the "nerf", brainwipe is still not an option, you can never use brainwipe to sneak pass anyone without putting XP into stealth, and if you do so, you wouldn't need brainwipe at all, using brainwipe might even botch your sneak, because people under brainwipe will wander randomly, for only 5s, if they awoke facing you, good reload to you xD

Even during fights, neither Ventrue nor Tremere would need brainwipe to handle a bunch of non-supernatural enemies, in game dominate is almost useless against supernatural enemies, in p&p they work on vampires who have higher generation than you as well.


And put dominate aside, Wesp5 have you considered to remake lvl 2 dementation? It is even worse than brainwipe, no effect on supernatural enemies, useless close range debuff, cost 2 blood, Omega!
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on June 01, 2019, 02:13:29 AM
Well they chance this for Bloodlines 2. ;)
https://www.bloodlines2.com/en/ventrue

I knew it would be Venture! I'm more wondering about the last clan :D
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on June 01, 2019, 02:20:16 AM
Wesp already answered about the usefulness but I will be a little bit blunt. Of course Discipline powers should be useful but also graded because this is a RPG (computer or P&P doesn't matter) and you should have development of the PC, of the skills, disciplines and whatever is there. If there is not development the higher levels will be no more useful than the lower levels and than the upper levels become useless. I agree that you cannot transfer P&P one to one, but you should have a graded logic for the development of a discipline and Trance is something of a lesser version of Possession and thus too powerful for Level 1 and makes Level 2 and 3 useless. By your logic god mod could be useful so why don't we put it as skill or discipline instead of cheat?! Thaumathurgy level 4 had mass effect and now is changed which makes it weaker but I didn't raised a voice for returning of the Vanilla power. I don't see a point in wanting omnipotent disciplines, it's boring. Just use different approaches for different situations - there is enough XP to develop different skills and tactics. It's more fun that way or at least for me.
By the way the "bloody mages" also have Dominate so by making Dominate more powerful you make them more powerful as well. Ventrue also has Fortitude and Presence both quite powerful especially Fortitude, and Presence is better than Auspex nevertheless it's a little bit bugged. So Ventrue is in no way weaker than Tremere and I don't understand this desire for having an afternoon walk and calling it gaming. A little or a bigger challenge won't hurt especially after so many years.
No, I can tell you even with trance removed, brainwipe is still crap because it is how it is. And not to mention in p&p you can use dominate on supernatural entities(like what prince did to you), the PC is 10th generation, I don't see why they can't dominate some feral sabbat, most young vampires are 13~15 generations at that time.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on June 02, 2019, 05:48:26 PM
Maybe a longer duration could help Brainwipe? With only 5sec is this barely useful.

I already tried that, but it seems both particles and AI routine are limited to 5 seconds. I would guess that Troika planned this as a last resort discipline level to get out of trouble if you are surrounded, not to sneak around in a map...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on June 02, 2019, 08:45:45 PM
I already tried that, but it seems both particles and AI routine are limited to 5 seconds. I would guess that Troika planned this as a last resort discipline level to get out of trouble if you are surrounded, not to sneak around in a map...
Then maybe you can try making it wider, or substitute the effect with trance, or allow it to work on vampire minions.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Barabbah on June 02, 2019, 08:49:48 PM
Or replace it with one of those dumped discipline levels....
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on June 03, 2019, 11:50:40 AM
I looked into this again and it seems the duration can be enhanced, so I have increased Brainwipe to 15 seconds now, like most other Dominate or Dementation disciplines...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wilhelm Streicher 19 on June 03, 2019, 05:23:31 PM
I looked into this again and it seems the duration can be enhanced, so I have increased Brainwipe to 15 seconds now, like most other Dominate or Dementation disciplines...
Great this change makes it a lot more useful.

Could you also take a look at Dementation 2?
And put dominate aside, Wesp5 have you considered to remake lvl 2 dementation? It is even worse than brainwipe, no effect on supernatural enemies, useless close range debuff, cost 2 blood, Omega!
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on June 03, 2019, 06:08:53 PM
Could you also take a look at Dementation 2?

I don't see a problem there. Compared to Brainwipe it should work fine on many more supernaturals!
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Pumma on June 03, 2019, 06:59:27 PM
I looked into this again and it seems the duration can be enhanced, so I have increased Brainwipe to 15 seconds now, like most other Dominate or Dementation disciplines...

That's good to hear. I thought that the duration is hard-coded or you were able to get around this.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on June 03, 2019, 07:52:33 PM
That's good to hear. I thought that the duration is hard-coded or you were able to get around this.

This was at first a mistake of my own. I prolonged the duration and tested it on a normal NPC, which after 5 seconds went her usual way, so I assumed that it didn't work longer. Of course in reality the discipline was still active, she just didn't see me!
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Pumma on June 04, 2019, 04:07:17 AM
That's good to hear. I thought that the duration is hard-coded or you were able to get around this.

This was at first a mistake of my own. I prolonged the duration and tested it on a normal NPC, which after 5 seconds went her usual way, so I assumed that it didn't work longer. Of course in reality the discipline was still active, she just didn't see me!

I see. Just the "animation" is 5 seconds but all other is OK. Not a big problem but could confuse someone when using it.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on June 04, 2019, 07:44:23 AM
I see. Just the "animation" is 5 seconds but all other is OK.

No. There is no special animation! They just don't see you...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on June 05, 2019, 03:32:37 AM
I don't see a problem there. Compared to Brainwipe it should work fine on many more supernaturals!
Are you certain? It can't even effect Jezebel, that fight is hard for malks(most boss fights are harder when playing as malk, but this one especially).
Imo lvl 2 dementation should works on all things except those without a clear mind, such as zombies and Tzimisce creations, which they also ignore obfuscate because they are coco!
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Pumma on June 05, 2019, 06:32:06 AM
I see. Just the "animation" is 5 seconds but all other is OK.

No. There is no special animation! They just don't see you...

With "animation" I mean certain NPC's behavior which indicates that the discipline is active. I didn't have time to check the duration of Sleep but I hope this change do not make Sleep useless.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on June 05, 2019, 07:25:13 AM
With "animation" I mean certain NPC's behavior which indicates that the discipline is active.

That's the main problem with Brainwipe. You don't get any hint that it's working besides the particles on the target's heads.

Quote
I didn't have time to check the duration of Sleep but I hope this change do not make Sleep useless.

Sleep normally lasts forever, so this is pretty much the best sneaking discipline :)!
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on June 05, 2019, 07:26:37 AM
I don't see a problem there. Compared to Brainwipe it should work fine on many more supernaturals!
Are you certain? It can't even effect Jezebel, that fight is hard for malks(most boss fights are harder when playing as malk, but this one especially).

According to the file it should work fine. Only as it just lowers some combat attributes you don't really notice that it works in the first place...
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Emeus on June 05, 2019, 07:25:36 PM
According to the file it should work fine. Only as it just lowers some combat attributes you don't really notice that it works in the first place...
Hmm, it definitely has no effect on Jezebel, because she is having that disorient animation, which only happens when a dominate/dementation ability is resisted.
Title: Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
Post by: Wesp5 on June 05, 2019, 08:02:07 PM
Hmm, it definitely has no effect on Jezebel, because she is having that disorient animation, which only happens when a dominate/dementation ability is resisted.

She should be affected. Maybe the Mass Hallucination effect looks like the resist effect? Neither EntenSchreck nor myself changed anything there...
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