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Offline Malkav

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2019, 09:29:58 am »
Pumma, I can in no way agree with you. A computer game has quite different possibilities and limitations than p&p. So the disciplines have to be adapted to be useful within the limitations of the computer game.
Since you can't use command p&p like to make someone open a door or drop their weapon, the computer game nneds something tangible like trance.
Anyway, level 2, brainwipe is completely useless, so you can't make level 1 useless as well.

And compared to thaumaturgy (except for level 1) all disciplines are somewhat weak. But I have never heard any complaints about the bloody mages being too strong...
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Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2019, 12:15:44 pm »
Anyway, level 2, brainwipe is completely useless, so you can't make level 1 useless as well.

Brainwipe is only useless, because Trance does the same for less blood. With command being kind of random, Brainwipe makes sense...

Offline Wilhelm Streicher 19

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2019, 12:31:18 pm »
Pumma, I can in no way agree with you. A computer game has quite different possibilities and limitations than p&p. So the disciplines have to be adapted to be useful within the limitations of the computer game.
Since you can't use command p&p like to make someone open a door or drop their weapon, the computer game nneds something tangible like trance.
Well they chance this for Bloodlines 2. ;)
https://www.bloodlines2.com/en/ventrue

But you are right for 2004. Troika couldn´t do that at this time.

Offline Pumma

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2019, 07:40:11 pm »
Pumma, I can in no way agree with you. A computer game has quite different possibilities and limitations than p&p. So the disciplines have to be adapted to be useful within the limitations of the computer game.
Since you can't use command p&p like to make someone open a door or drop their weapon, the computer game nneds something tangible like trance.
Anyway, level 2, brainwipe is completely useless, so you can't make level 1 useless as well.

And compared to thaumaturgy (except for level 1) all disciplines are somewhat weak. But I have never heard any complaints about the bloody mages being too strong...

Wesp already answered about the usefulness but I will be a little bit blunt. Of course Discipline powers should be useful but also graded because this is a RPG (computer or P&P doesn't matter) and you should have development of the PC, of the skills, disciplines and whatever is there. If there is not development the higher levels will be no more useful than the lower levels and than the upper levels become useless. I agree that you cannot transfer P&P one to one, but you should have a graded logic for the development of a discipline and Trance is something of a lesser version of Possession and thus too powerful for Level 1 and makes Level 2 and 3 useless. By your logic god mod could be useful so why don't we put it as skill or discipline instead of cheat?! Thaumathurgy level 4 had mass effect and now is changed which makes it weaker but I didn't raised a voice for returning of the Vanilla power. I don't see a point in wanting omnipotent disciplines, it's boring. Just use different approaches for different situations - there is enough XP to develop different skills and tactics. It's more fun that way or at least for me.
By the way the "bloody mages" also have Dominate so by making Dominate more powerful you make them more powerful as well. Ventrue also has Fortitude and Presence both quite powerful especially Fortitude, and Presence is better than Auspex nevertheless it's a little bit bugged. So Ventrue is in no way weaker than Tremere and I don't understand this desire for having an afternoon walk and calling it gaming. A little or a bigger challenge won't hurt especially after so many years.
 

Offline Malkav

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2019, 08:57:05 am »
If you want to power down level 1 find something for level 2 that isn't complete crap. A discipline with both level 1 and 2 useless is not worth playing.
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Offline Wilhelm Streicher 19

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2019, 12:40:20 am »
Brainwipe is only useless, because Trance does the same for less blood. With command being kind of random, Brainwipe makes sense...
Maybe a longer duration could help Brainwipe? With only 5sec is this barely useful. 
Its more more efficient to use Command twice on two enemies than one time Brainwipe. Especially if the playercharacter is sneaking.
It should be atleast 10 sec.

Overall i like the Command changes but maybe the naming it Command could be a bit misleading. Maybe Mesmerize would be a better name

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2019, 02:11:16 am »
Brainwipe is only useless, because Trance does the same for less blood. With command being kind of random, Brainwipe makes sense...
With that range and duration? Nah. After command got the "nerf", brainwipe is still not an option, you can never use brainwipe to sneak pass anyone without putting XP into stealth, and if you do so, you wouldn't need brainwipe at all, using brainwipe might even botch your sneak, because people under brainwipe will wander randomly, for only 5s, if they awoke facing you, good reload to you xD

Even during fights, neither Ventrue nor Tremere would need brainwipe to handle a bunch of non-supernatural enemies, in game dominate is almost useless against supernatural enemies, in p&p they work on vampires who have higher generation than you as well.


And put dominate aside, Wesp5 have you considered to remake lvl 2 dementation? It is even worse than brainwipe, no effect on supernatural enemies, useless close range debuff, cost 2 blood, Omega!

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2019, 02:13:29 am »
Well they chance this for Bloodlines 2. ;)
https://www.bloodlines2.com/en/ventrue

I knew it would be Venture! I'm more wondering about the last clan :D

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2019, 02:20:16 am »
Wesp already answered about the usefulness but I will be a little bit blunt. Of course Discipline powers should be useful but also graded because this is a RPG (computer or P&P doesn't matter) and you should have development of the PC, of the skills, disciplines and whatever is there. If there is not development the higher levels will be no more useful than the lower levels and than the upper levels become useless. I agree that you cannot transfer P&P one to one, but you should have a graded logic for the development of a discipline and Trance is something of a lesser version of Possession and thus too powerful for Level 1 and makes Level 2 and 3 useless. By your logic god mod could be useful so why don't we put it as skill or discipline instead of cheat?! Thaumathurgy level 4 had mass effect and now is changed which makes it weaker but I didn't raised a voice for returning of the Vanilla power. I don't see a point in wanting omnipotent disciplines, it's boring. Just use different approaches for different situations - there is enough XP to develop different skills and tactics. It's more fun that way or at least for me.
By the way the "bloody mages" also have Dominate so by making Dominate more powerful you make them more powerful as well. Ventrue also has Fortitude and Presence both quite powerful especially Fortitude, and Presence is better than Auspex nevertheless it's a little bit bugged. So Ventrue is in no way weaker than Tremere and I don't understand this desire for having an afternoon walk and calling it gaming. A little or a bigger challenge won't hurt especially after so many years.
No, I can tell you even with trance removed, brainwipe is still crap because it is how it is. And not to mention in p&p you can use dominate on supernatural entities(like what prince did to you), the PC is 10th generation, I don't see why they can't dominate some feral sabbat, most young vampires are 13~15 generations at that time.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2019, 05:48:26 pm »
Maybe a longer duration could help Brainwipe? With only 5sec is this barely useful.

I already tried that, but it seems both particles and AI routine are limited to 5 seconds. I would guess that Troika planned this as a last resort discipline level to get out of trouble if you are surrounded, not to sneak around in a map...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 05:55:41 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2019, 08:45:45 pm »
I already tried that, but it seems both particles and AI routine are limited to 5 seconds. I would guess that Troika planned this as a last resort discipline level to get out of trouble if you are surrounded, not to sneak around in a map...
Then maybe you can try making it wider, or substitute the effect with trance, or allow it to work on vampire minions.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 08:48:37 pm by Emeus »

Offline Barabbah

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2019, 08:49:48 pm »
Or replace it with one of those dumped discipline levels....
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Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2019, 11:50:40 am »
I looked into this again and it seems the duration can be enhanced, so I have increased Brainwipe to 15 seconds now, like most other Dominate or Dementation disciplines...

Offline Wilhelm Streicher 19

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2019, 05:23:31 pm »
I looked into this again and it seems the duration can be enhanced, so I have increased Brainwipe to 15 seconds now, like most other Dominate or Dementation disciplines...
Great this change makes it a lot more useful.

Could you also take a look at Dementation 2?
And put dominate aside, Wesp5 have you considered to remake lvl 2 dementation? It is even worse than brainwipe, no effect on supernatural enemies, useless close range debuff, cost 2 blood, Omega!

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2019, 06:08:53 pm »
Could you also take a look at Dementation 2?

I don't see a problem there. Compared to Brainwipe it should work fine on many more supernaturals!

 

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