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Offline Emeus

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Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« on: May 21, 2019, 07:43:33 PM »
The rest abilities in dominate are reversed back, except for this one. This "Command" ability make NPCs dance or trance, but unlike trance, dancing NPC still maintain their sight, and it will be a disaster while you're sneaking, made your target dance literally means reload your game. Seriously, why it's still there, yes it looks cool but this is a dominate ability not a dementation one, "I'm asking you to go trance but wth are you dancing?!"

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2019, 08:00:12 PM »
This "Command" ability make NPCs dance or trance, but unlike trance, dancing NPC still maintain their sight, and it will be a disaster while you're sneaking, made your target dance literally means reload your game.

What happens when the dancing is over? Didn't you have time to sneak away?

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 02:35:44 AM »
What happens when the dancing is over? Didn't you have time to sneak away?

No, they awake right up, full with their sight, and sometimes you get exposed immediately right after commanded a dance.

Not to mention there are situations which need you to trance 2 people together to sneak away, making one of them dance then it's time to reload, and perhaps again later.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 02:37:45 AM by Emeus »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2019, 08:04:09 AM »
No, they awake right up, full with their sight, and sometimes you get exposed immediately right after commanded a dance.

As far as I know people should awake out of a Trance at the same time full with their sight. Or does this not happen?

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 07:54:45 PM »
As far as I know people should awake out of a Trance at the same time full with their sight. Or does this not happen?
Yes, what I'm saying is they still have sight WHILE dancing, not after the effect wore off.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 09:06:15 PM »
Yes, what I'm saying is they still have sight WHILE dancing, not after the effect wore off.

And this is a problem why? Because they should as disoriented after the discipline ends and not remember where you went...

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2019, 02:52:23 AM »
And this is a problem why? Because they should as disoriented after the discipline ends and not remember where you went...
Because when they saw you, others nearby are alerted as well, all of them will come straight after you. It also ruins quests that have requirement for PC not being sighted, and rarely, to steal something without trigger hostility. Lastly, feeding, trance someone then you can feed in front of their face, dance however, reload.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 02:58:37 AM by Emeus »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2019, 09:33:02 AM »
Because when they saw you, others nearby are alerted as well, all of them will come straight after you. It also ruins quests that have requirement for PC not being sighted, and rarely, to steal something without trigger hostility. Lastly, feeding, trance someone then you can feed in front of their face, dance however, reload.

Hm, this makes the game harder indeed. In the next patch version it will get even worse as I restored some other random effects of command, like the enemies will flee or cower in fear. This is how Troika planned it to be before they replaced all of it with the overpowered Trance solution. Maybe you need to upgrade and use sleep instead, this works perfectly...

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2019, 04:47:35 PM »
Hm, this makes the game harder indeed. In the next patch version it will get even worse as I restored some other random effects of command, like the enemies will flee or cower in fear. This is how Troika planned it to be before they replaced all of it with the overpowered Trance solution. Maybe you need to upgrade and use sleep instead, this works perfectly...
Sleep is reversed back to Suicide in 10.3 :(
About cower and flee, in my opinion, if cowering do not maintain sight, and flee does not make people run onto you, then they are better than dance, because dance almost does nothing. So please Wesp5, if you have to do it, exclude dance, or make them dance with eyes closed D:

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2019, 05:01:55 PM »
Sleep is reversed back to Suicide in 10.3 :(

Sleep will be back in 10.4 and will then again be the best Dominate level for non detection runs!

Quote
About cower and flee, in my opinion, if cowering do not maintain sight, and flee does not make people run onto you, then they are better than dance, because dance almost does nothing.

Sadly, I don't know how to turn sight on on off during these actions, so this might end up random as originally intended. After all Sleep is rather superfluous, if cheaper Trance does the same.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 05:04:14 PM by Wesp5 »

Offline Malkav

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2019, 08:38:40 PM »
Why should Dominate be random? Randomness is appropriate for Dementation, but imo not for Dominate which is about control, and therefore must start with the user's selfcontrol.
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Offline Wesp5

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2019, 09:32:02 AM »
Why should Dominate be random? Randomness is appropriate for Dementation, but imo not for Dominate which is about control, and therefore must start with the user's selfcontrol.

This is how Troika planned it. Unless they had another mechanism to switch inside of one level of a discipline to different options. At least EntenSchreck thought so, who build this for me...

Offline Pumma

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2019, 08:18:53 AM »
Why should Dominate be random? Randomness is appropriate for Dementation, but imo not for Dominate which is about control, and therefore must start with the user's selfcontrol.

Yes, but the PC is quite inexperienced in using such a powerful and tricky discipline as Dominate so the randomness could fly for Level 1. And more over there is no need for the Dominate Discipline to be more powerful as it is at the moment (Sleep as Level 3). Also Dominate and Dementation are quite similar and I would say that the latter is somehow twisted Malkavian version of the former.

Offline Emeus

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 12:48:28 AM »
Yes, but the PC is quite inexperienced in using such a powerful and tricky discipline as Dominate so the randomness could fly for Level 1. And more over there is no need for the Dominate Discipline to be more powerful as it is at the moment (Sleep as Level 3). Also Dominate and Dementation are quite similar and I would say that the latter is somehow twisted Malkavian version of the former.
On the other hand, lvl 1 dementation only has 2 random effects, 4 in dominate is a little bit... too inexperienced imo.
Perhaps both abilities could have a rework of their lvl 2, they are useless in most of time.

Offline Pumma

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Re: Seriously, lvl 1 dominate still makes people dance?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2019, 05:43:54 AM »
About cower and flee, in my opinion, if cowering do not maintain sight, and flee does not make people run onto you, then they are better than dance, because dance almost does nothing.

Sadly, I don't know how to turn sight on on off during these actions, so this might end up random as originally intended. After all Sleep is rather superfluous, if cheaper Trance does the same.

Not only Sleep will be superfluous but also Level 2 Brainwipe will be superfluous. In fact Command is related to giving a single command and not to make the PC invisible or the NPC to forget and as you already said Troika made it too overpowered. I would prefer if you could remove the Trance part completely and leave only the simple commands which do not make level 2 and 3 superfluous. Now Dominate is too powerful with Mass Suicide which is like Level 7 discipline in the P&P game.

Yes, but the PC is quite inexperienced in using such a powerful and tricky discipline as Dominate so the randomness could fly for Level 1. And more over there is no need for the Dominate Discipline to be more powerful as it is at the moment (Sleep as Level 3). Also Dominate and Dementation are quite similar and I would say that the latter is somehow twisted Malkavian version of the former.
On the other hand, lvl 1 dementation only has 2 random effects, 4 in dominate is a little bit... too inexperienced imo.
Perhaps both abilities could have a rework of their lvl 2, they are useless in most of time.

No it's not. The Troika Command is too powerful and not according to the P&P discipline. P&P Command do not include Brainwipe which is level 3 in the P&P and the PC needs eye contact to use dominate so it's cannot be used for sneaking. It's good that Wesp fixed this issue. So the randomness is the only way for more types of commands and is OK in my book (even if it has more effects than Dementation) and Trance do not fit in single word command. So use Brainwipe or Sleep or simple Sneaking - it's easy even in UP+.

 

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