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Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines => Bloodlines Modding => Topic started by: [archive] Layec on June 11, 2008, 05:22:00 AM

Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Layec on June 11, 2008, 05:22:00 AM
                Howdy.
 
 I would like to add the ability to use Dominate in conversation with NPCs to the Tremere.  Any information on how I can do that would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks much.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] sexydeth on June 12, 2008, 05:52:00 AM
                I'm going to go out on a limb here and say its not possible.  I think when you speak to an NPC it does a check of your clan to see which dialog options to bring up.  You could replace the Ventrue model with the Tremere but then you lose the Thaumaturgy discipline.  
 
 The only way I think this could be possible is to go into the game's mechanics and whenever it initiates chat to have it think a Tremere is a Ventrue but then you lose out on any Tremere lines like when Bertram says your kind is going the way of beta or are almost extinct.  I don't know how to do this myself but I have some knowledge of programming.  I don't know if the Dominate files can just be accessed by changing a Tremere ID with a Ventrue one.  Its more than just a change of text but there is also the blood cost tied to it.  I think they gave that skill to the Ventrue to give them something uniquely theirs.  Tremere get a special haven and a powerful discipline, Ventrue's get LaCroix.                        

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Signothorn on June 12, 2008, 06:04:00 AM
                You can add Dominate to your discipline list in the clandoc.txt file but you may have to sacrifice something else, depending on which patch you're using, due to the limitation on how many disciplines the game allows.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on June 12, 2008, 07:23:00 AM
               
Signothorn posted:
You can add Dominate to your discipline list in the clandoc.txt file but you may have to sacrifice something else, depending on which patch you're using, due to the limitation on how many disciplines the game allows.

 
 The Tremere already have the Dominate discipline only it does not work in dialogues compared to that of the Ventrue. I think others here have already tried to change it but it seems to be hard-coded into the engine like sexydeth explained.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Layec on June 12, 2008, 05:50:00 PM
                Thanks for your help.  I wish the solution was simple, but oh well.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Valamyr on July 31, 2008, 08:56:00 PM
                There IS a solution - workaround actually, that I've used in the past.
 
 Unfortunately it's not VERY quick, but its simple enough.
 
 You have to open all the dialog files, and do a find/replace on all instances of "Dominate 1", "Dominate 2", etc, for "Thaumaturgy 1", "Thaumaturgy 2", etc, and remove all references to "is.clan.pc = Ventrue". That'll trick the game into letting you use the dominate options.
 
 It can be done with any discipline really. A toreador could do it with Presence and it would work, technically. You even get the line in red, like a Ventrue, though with a slightly different font.
 
 Theres a bloodlines dialogs editor somewhere out there that makes this process quite a bit faster than using notepad, BTW.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 01, 2008, 06:35:00 AM
               
Valamyr posted:

 You have to open all the dialog files, and do a find/replace on all instances of "Dominate 1", "Dominate 2", etc, for "Thaumaturgy 1", "Thaumaturgy 2", etc, and remove all references to "is.clan.pc = Ventrue". That'll trick the game into letting you use the dominate options.

 
 Is a Blood Loss connected with this and if it is, should I consider this for the plus patch or would this make the Tremere to strong? How about Presence for Toreador and others? How is this handled in the PnP game?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 02, 2008, 02:19:00 PM
                You're an eloquent man, Offkorn.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] MooCHa2 on August 02, 2008, 02:35:00 PM
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
You're an eloquent man, Offkorn.

 
 He just skips the bullshit is all, and gets straight to the point...
 
 Regards...                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Offkorn on August 01, 2008, 08:34:00 AM
               
Wesp5 posted:
Is a Blood Loss connected with this and if it is, should I consider this for the plus patch or would this make the Tremere to strong? How about Presence for Toreador and others? How is this handled in the PnP game?
 

 
 You did notice the 'remove all mentions of Dominate' didn't you?
 
 If you make it work for Tremere, then it stops working for Ventrue.                        

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 01, 2008, 09:12:00 AM
               
Offkorn posted:

 You did notice the 'remove all mentions of Dominate' didn't you?
 

 
 Yes, but I thought he meant to copy the lines and then replace Dominate with Thaumaturgy.
 
 
posted:

 If you make it work for Tremere, then it stops working for Ventrue.
 

 
 That would make no sense then! So should I assume that you tried to do something like this for your PnP mod already and it didn't work out? Are Tremere able to use Dominate in Dialogues in the PnP game anyway? What about his Presence suggestion? Is this PnP conform?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Offkorn on August 02, 2008, 09:14:00 AM
               
Wesp5 posted:
That would make no sense then! So should I assume that you tried to do something like this for your PnP mod already and it didn't work out? Are Tremere able to use Dominate in Dialogues in the PnP game anyway? What about his Presence suggestion? Is this PnP conform?
 

 
 Just fucking do it and watch what happens.
 
 You may even enjoy the result.                        

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 02, 2008, 03:15:00 PM
               
MooCHa2 posted:
Dark666Prophet posted:
You're an eloquent man, Offkorn.

 
 He just skips the bullshit is all, and gets straight to the point...
 

 
 Well, I may try the in-game changes myself but I still don't know how Tremere Dominate and Presence is handled in the PnP game and you sure well know that I never played that!                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] MooCHa2 on August 02, 2008, 03:40:00 PM
               
Wesp5 posted:

 
 Well, I may try the in-game changes myself but I still don't know how Tremere Dominate and Presence is handled in the PnP game and you sure well know that I never played that!

 
 Ask on the whitewolf forums how it works. It is always worth the attempt at it wink  
 
 I don't have a proper indepth scooby doo about it myself.
 
 Regards...
 
 
                       

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Pixxee_O_kais on August 03, 2008, 02:01:00 PM
                wow. offkorn is kind of a jerkbag.
 
                       

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 03, 2008, 05:59:00 PM
               
Pixie posted:

 wow. offkorn is kind of a jerkbag.
 

 
 He's kind of a resident douche on Planet Vampire. You'll get used to him. He's an asshole, but he's rather intelligent.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] MadeChina on August 03, 2008, 06:19:00 PM
                I really don't know how the discipline checker works, but I think that if you change the discipline order of the Tremere to match that of the Ventrue, the Tremere may have the Dominate's dialogue options.
 For example, if the Ventrue's order is:
 Presence-Whatever-Dominate
 And the Tremere's order is:
 Dominate-Celerity-Thaumaturagy
 Then Dominate should have a dialogue effect for the Tremere as well if their order is:
 Celerity-Thaumaturagy-Dominate
 Since it's the only difference I could come up with (since the dialogue files check for disciplines in this case, not for clans), it's worth giving it a try, doesn't it?
 
 But more importantly is what's the P&P take on this - since adding more features is nice and all, but after all - it should be true to the White Wolf's P&P game.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Offkorn on August 03, 2008, 08:17:00 PM
               
Pixxee_O_kais posted:
wow. offkorn is kind of a jerkbag.
 

 
 Ha.
 
 If you knew even the most basic things about how the dialog system worked, you'd understand precisely why I said what I said. Since Wesp has been modding this game as long as he has (he started two monthes or so after the first full version of the P&P Mod was completed), he should be damn well aware of why he can't include it in his compilation. "Why don't you explain it to him?" you ask? Because I hate him, this game, and idiots like yourself who just type whatever happens to float through their empty skulls without having the faintest clue about what is being discussed.
 
 If he wants to waste time pretending that allowing non-Ventrue to use their disciplines as a substitute for Dominate is a good or 'easily' implemented idea, hey, I'm all for letting him waste his time. It's not like he has anything better to do after all.                        

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 03, 2008, 08:44:00 PM
                Offkorn, I think Wesp was just asking you, since you're well-versed in P&P, if Tremere should be able to use Dominate in conversation because they have the Dominate Discipline. I think he didn't know, and was just wanting to ask you because he values your knowledge on the subject.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Pixxee_O_kais on August 04, 2008, 08:41:00 PM
                Somebody failed their frenzy check.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Valamyr on August 04, 2008, 10:11:00 PM
                Wow, chill everyone. Offkorn, if you hate this game, why are you even here? ...
 
 Let me try to answer some questions. The proposal I made above... is probably not fit for the plus patch, no, because the devs purposely intended Tremere to not be able to use these options. However, if you WANTED to do it, it could be done in the following way (its quite a bit more work than what I proposed above).
 
 You'd have to INSERT NEW LINES instead of replacing the existing ones, which would be copies of the Ventrue dominate lines, but for the Tremere. Every time there's a dominate option in the files, you'd add in an equivalent Thaumaturgy line instead. Its quite a bit of work, but entirely feasible, since I already did it in the past (Too long ago, i believe it was version 2.2 of Wesp's patch back then, so that work is essentially outdated), If it's done this way, it doesn't break the Ventrue options at all.
 
 And yes, blood loss would function. If you add say "Presence 3" as a trigger, it would cost 3 blood, even though Presence never actually costs more than 1 blood otherwise. So, exactly like Dominate.
 
 My suggestion, if we are to add "magic" lines to other clans, would be to use them only where it makes sense, write them with the appropriate clan's flavor, and not copy/paste the forceful-styled Ventrue Dominate options. But, since you asked, yes, it's entirely feasible. I posted my work back then on game banshee, and several users liked it. A bunch more complained I was breaking a restriction that had been created with a purpose, though.
                       

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 05, 2008, 05:52:00 AM
               
Valamyr posted:

 You'd have to INSERT NEW LINES instead of replacing the existing ones, which would be copies of the Ventrue dominate lines, but for the Tremere. Every time there's a dominate option in the files, you'd add in an equivalent Thaumaturgy line instead.
 

 
 That's what I suspected, although I didn't yet get around to try it with all the other stuff posted in the 5.5 thread. If this really works I think it would quite well fit into the plus patch as I remember lots of people complaining that Tremere can't use Domination in dialogue. I don't know about Presence though. Is this a common feature in PnP?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 05, 2008, 07:45:00 AM
                It didn't seem like Tremere were intended to be able to use it in dialogue.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 05, 2008, 09:15:00 AM
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
It didn't seem like Tremere were intended to be able to use it in dialogue.

 
 Yeah, but it wasn't intended for any clan to use Blood Heal or the sniper rifle in the released game either wink .
 
 Still, if I'll decide to do this, I doubt it would be possible to swap the Dominate and Thaumaturgy disciplines around, so this would limit the Thaumaturgy-Dominate trick of the Tremere to one point dialogues which should be enough to not overpower them compared to the Ventrue.
 
 Update:
 
 I finally played around with this a bit. On the positive side it is indeed possible to use the Thaumaturgy-Dominate trick of Valymar happy ! Maybe Offkorn reacted so annoyed because he never figured that one out for his PnP mod? On the negative side there is the limitation to one point as mentioned above and also the missing graphical effect, though a sound can be applied. So should I implement this kind of limited Tremere Domination for the plus patch?
 
 On the other hand it is also possible to swap the Dominate and Auspex disciplines for Tremere to get the full Domination possibilities of the Ventrue. The big disadvantage here is that due to the discipline switch the graphical effects of all disciplines get mixed up so this is a no go from my point of view.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Valamyr on August 05, 2008, 03:10:00 PM
                Of course it works, I did it countless times.
 
 I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying about why it must be limited to 1 point dialogs, though. If you intend to do it, might as well go all the way. Otherwise you'll give people a cool gimmick in Santa Monica and they'll be disappointed that it doesn't work anymore downtown. (Most of the time, the later you are in the game, the more blood the dialogs demand).                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] MadeChina on August 05, 2008, 03:37:00 PM
               
Valamyr posted:
Of course it works, I did it countless times.
 
 I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying about why it must be limited to 1 point dialogs, though. If you intend to do it, might as well go all the way. Otherwise you'll give people a cool gimmick in Santa Monica and they'll be disappointed that it doesn't work anymore downtown. (Most of the time, the later you are in the game, the more blood the dialogs demand).

 Using your way, it checks for the Thaumaturagy values.
 Doing so, you get Dominate dialogue options without the dependance of Dominate.
 Limiting the Dominate dialogue options to the absolute minimum is the only way to simulate Dominate dependance.
 
 Anyway, I believe that my way might work, since (as I said) it's the only difference that I've found. Since I no longer have the game (lost my discs), can someone else check it out? It should be very basic.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Valamyr on August 05, 2008, 03:56:00 PM
                Ah, I understand. Let me test out something real quick, I may have an idea to simulate the dependence correctly.
 
 Edit: Nope, thats right, no real way to check for dependency. Though I doubt many Tremere players choose to not get Dominate up to 3 asap. Its very useful.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 05, 2008, 04:47:00 PM
                If players see level one Dominate dialogue options, they're going to think they can get better dialogue options if they keep investing in Dominate, which is untrue. It needs to either work the same as it does for the Ventrue, or not at all (for the Tremere), I say.
 
 Offkorn, in terms of the oWoD, should Tremere be able to do this like Ventrue can? I think that's what should decide if they can or can't use it in dialogues.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 05, 2008, 04:55:00 PM
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
If players see level one Dominate dialogue options, they're going to think they can get better dialogue options if they keep investing in Dominate, which is untrue. It needs to either work the same as it does for the Ventrue, or not at all (for the Tremere), I say.

 
 I would just add a few one point Tremere Domination options in lesser cases to keep the difference to the Ventrue. Also to MadeChina, swapping the order of the disciplines is exactly what I tried and what ended up in all the graphical effects being messed up. I don't think this is possible in another way.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 05, 2008, 05:02:00 PM
                It just sounds like it's going to give people the impression that they need to level up their Dominate when playing Tremere because they'll be able to do all the Dominate options if they do so. However, that's not how it'll work.
 
 Again, I'm pretty sure we should wait and see what Offkorn says the WoD rule on that is...                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Valamyr on August 05, 2008, 08:48:00 PM
                Tremere in P&P WoD can do exactly the same thing with Dominate that a Ventrue can. Absolutely no mechanical difference.
 
 The VTM devs chose to do it differently to add flavor to Ventrue. But its definitely not "Un-P&P" or whatever to add options for the Tremere.
 
 One final option we have is to make ALL dominate uses require only 1 blood. In p&p, there's not even a blood cost associated with mesmerize, it can be used at-will. It would lessen the blood requirements to rely on Dominate, but most of the time, a "free" persuasion line does exactly the same thing anyway.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 06, 2008, 12:59:00 AM
                So what exactly is the reason why they can't use it in Bloodlines as the Ventrue can?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 06, 2008, 09:25:00 AM
               
Valamyr posted:
Tremere in P&P WoD can do exactly the same thing with Dominate that a Ventrue can. Absolutely no mechanical difference.

 
 Okay, so what about other clans and Presence? Is this P&P conform or was this your idea?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 06, 2008, 09:53:00 PM
                What about Presence? What're you talking about?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 07, 2008, 07:24:00 AM
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
What about Presence? What're you talking about?

 
 Valymar said that other clans could use Presence in dialogues and I want to know if this is from the P&P game or his own imagination.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] ArdanProfessor on August 07, 2008, 12:24:00 PM
               
Wesp5 posted:
Valymar said that other clans could use Presence in dialogues and I want to know if this is from the P&P game or his own imagination.

 
 That's mostly what it's used for, actually.  In the Pen and Paper, Dominate and Presence are kind of the flip sides of controlling people.  Dominate is flat out overwhelming one person's mind to MAKE them do what you want, where as Presence makes you supernaturally appealing even to large groups.  You don't control them per se, but if you use it successfully they're more willing to do what you want or be swayed by your opinion in the future.  In Bloodlines, the devs basically took the second power Dreadful Mien and spread it out over the whole discipline, the same way they did with Protean (which was about a lot more than just claws).
 
 If you really wanted to make Presence function like PnP, I think the easiest way to do it would be to add it to the conversation feats.  So Appearance + Subterfuge + Presence makes your Seduction feat, etc.  I'd say make it a temporary boost while it's running, but since it shuts off during dialogue it might as well be permanent.  In theory there's no restriction on who it works on anyway, a neonate can even sway an elder with a good roll.  Elders are just more likely to catch it and act accordingly.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 07, 2008, 01:05:00 PM
                Considering how very few uses of Seduction there really are in Bloodlines, I'd support that idea...having Presence add to your Seduction Feat. I might even invest in Presence for the first time if that were the case. Brujah and Toreador's other 2 Disciplines are too tempting, otherwise, and Dominate/Fortitude are as well for the Ventrue.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] ArdanProfessor on August 07, 2008, 03:53:00 PM
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
Considering how very few uses of Seduction there really are in Bloodlines, I'd support that idea...having Presence add to your Seduction Feat. I might even invest in Presence for the first time if that were the case. Brujah and Toreador's other 2 Disciplines are too tempting, otherwise, and Dominate/Fortitude are as well for the Ventrue.

 
 Well, I really just gave seduction as the example.  I meant all three conversation skills since the clans who have Presence are supposed to be talkers, Ventrue most of all, and the power itself is supposed to make it easier to convince people.  I suppose that is something of a major change to make for little to no reason, though it would reduce the dependence on Scholarship somewhat.  That's always irritated me.  
 
 At the risk of going even further off topic, you've seriously never spent points in Presence?  There's like 200 experience in this game.  I usually have all the disciplines to at least 4 by the end.  Fortitude becomes pointless when no one has enough dice to hit you. :-)                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 08, 2008, 01:50:00 AM
                Nope, never. I max one or two Disciplines by the end, and I go for max XP always.
 
 However, I think Presence sounds a bit too good if it were to add +1 for each dot to the dialogue options like Persuasion. The game's balance would be hurt.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Valamyr on August 08, 2008, 07:08:00 AM
               
Wesp5 posted:
Dark666Prophet posted:
What about Presence? What're you talking about?

 
 Valymar said that other clans could use Presence in dialogues and I want to know if this is from the P&P game or his own imagination.

 
 Not my imagination. I'm sorry, I assumed you were familiar with PNP mechanics.
 
 If anything Presence is mainly a social, not combat tool, in PNP. Its less 'blunt' than Dominate but no less effective at getting people what you want them to do, by controlling their emotions. This is the greatest strength of the Toreador, and the fact Presence has no social effects in Bloodlines is a large reason why playing them doesn't feel 'Toreador' at all.
 
 Long story short; Toreadors have exactly as many rights to have Presence-inspired dialog options than Ventrues with Dominate. I suspect its probably something the devs planned but had to cut, like most clan-specific stuff.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 08, 2008, 09:20:00 AM
               
Valamyr posted:

 Long story short; Toreadors have exactly as many rights to have Presence-inspired dialog options than Ventrues with Dominate.

 
 Hmmm, I'm still not sure what to do about Tremere Dominate but I think dialogue Presence would probably go too far. I can follow your thoughts about the Toreador, but what about the Brujah? Also then Ventrue would have gotten yet another option. Although this would raise them above the Tremere again which would make sense. What do you think?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] MadeChina on August 08, 2008, 12:45:00 PM
               
Wesp5 posted:
Valamyr posted:

 Long story short; Toreadors have exactly as many rights to have Presence-inspired dialog options than Ventrues with Dominate.

 
 Hmmm, I'm still not sure what to do about Tremere Dominate but I think dialogue Presence would probably go too far. I can follow your thoughts about the Toreador, but what about the Brujah? Also then Ventrue would have gotten yet another option. Although this would raise them above the Tremere again which would make sense. What do you think?

 I object to that. The game was constructed so the player could take different paths in order to develop his or hers character, and eventually rendering the "Jack of all trades" logic useless.
 Adding more reliance to every feat would damage the gameplay, or at least the balance (that should be obvious), and even if you can tone down things, you still have an offensive discipline which affects the primary dialogue options (being seduction, intimidation and persuassion) - a thing which, by all means, makes it worth investing in more than in the scolarship or charisma stats.
 Since the scolarship is quite useful, the charisma development just goes to hell with the Brujah, Toreador and Ventrue clans.
 Since the Toreador's main feature is extensive dialogues and interaction, I'd have to object to these changes, since they touch too many gameplay elements.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Valamyr on August 08, 2008, 07:16:00 PM
               
MadeChina posted:
Wesp5 posted:
Valamyr posted:

 Long story short; Toreadors have exactly as many rights to have Presence-inspired dialog options than Ventrues with Dominate.

 
 Hmmm, I'm still not sure what to do about Tremere Dominate but I think dialogue Presence would probably go too far. I can follow your thoughts about the Toreador, but what about the Brujah? Also then Ventrue would have gotten yet another option. Although this would raise them above the Tremere again which would make sense. What do you think?

 I object to that. The game was constructed so the player could take different paths in order to develop his or hers character, and eventually rendering the "Jack of all trades" logic useless.
 Adding more reliance to every feat would damage the gameplay, or at least the balance (that should be obvious), and even if you can tone down things, you still have an offensive discipline which affects the primary dialogue options (being seduction, intimidation and persuassion) - a thing which, by all means, makes it worth investing in more than in the scolarship or charisma stats.
 Since the scolarship is quite useful, the charisma development just goes to hell with the Brujah, Toreador and Ventrue clans.
 Since the Toreador's main feature is extensive dialogues and interaction, I'd have to object to these changes, since they touch too many gameplay elements.

 
 And you're probably entirely right. I was explaining this to put some PnP perspective on these disciplines. But I don't think I'd make major changes myself, either, not without doing a significant overhaul that goes beyond the realm of the "patch".                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 08, 2008, 08:17:00 PM
               
Valamyr posted:

 But I don't think I'd make major changes myself, either, not without doing a significant overhaul that goes beyond the realm of the "patch".

 
 I've decided to include Tremere Domination for cases where Ventrue Domination is 1 for the plus patch. This way the Ventrue keep their unique advantage and the Thaumaturgy trick is hidden. I also think that Troika once intended it that way because a lot of Dominate conditions check for clan Ventrue and in the unused tutorial security guard dialogue there is even one checking for not being clan Tremere!
 
 Regarding Presence in dialogue, I will not do this because it is not obvious for non PnP players, the results should be different to Dominate and there isn't space in the dialogue files for it anyway.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Slim_Laurence on August 09, 2008, 12:29:00 AM
                Hmmm, interesting. I didn't think you'd go for that. So you mean Tremere will only get Domination in dialogue if the skill requirement is 1? That would mean that it would only be useful early on and when it suddenly disappears a lot of players may get confused. Perhaps requirements instead should be doubled, so a Domination that would require level 2 for a Ventrue would require level 4 for a Tremere, and possibly cost more blood. Nah, instead of a direct double, maybe make the requirements for a Tremere 0/1/2/2/3. I think limiting the use of it to level 1 only still makes it pretty useless and thus makes the addition kind of pointless. This would at least give Tremere the ability while still making it obvious that it will never be as useful as the Ventrue version.
 
 As for Presence, I think it could be balanced if the bonuses are handled intelligently. You don't have to get +1 to all skills from level 1, but maybe just +1 Seduction, level 2 gives you +1 to Seduction and Intimidate, by level 3 you have +1 to all three, level 4 gives you +2 to Seduction and Intimidate with +1 to Persuasion, and then level 5 you have +2 to all three. That's comparable with bonuses you get from Auspex or Blood Buff and it might make the Toreodor do what they were always supposed to do. You could even throw Haggle into the mix, though I wouldn't recommend making the total bonus higher than +6. The effects of Presence may not be obvious to non PNP players but the Toreodor were always sold as social Vampires, and as is the anti-social vampires, the Malks, have more advantages in dialogue than they do. The Brujah probably shouldn't get it, like Domination for the Tremere and Ventrue, or at least a weaker version that only offers +1 to all at level 5. Or better yet, only Intimidate goes up for them getting a +3 bonus at level 5. And given how useless Presence is now I don't think a stat bonus would make it too powerful. Do you think anyone would bother with Auspex if it weren't for the stat bonus? Like I said, you didn't have to play the PNP to know that Toreador are supposed to have social advantages. I say that if it can be done, do it.                        

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 09, 2008, 05:42:00 AM
               
Slim_Laurence posted:
So you mean Tremere will only get Domination in dialogue if the skill requirement is 1? That would mean that it would only be useful early on and when it suddenly disappears a lot of players may get confused.

 
 Yes and no. It can't be done in another way because of engine limitations and even later in the game you get several Domination 1 options because it is connected to the things you try to force and not to the game state as such.
 
 
posted:

 As for Presence, I think it could be balanced if the bonuses are handled intelligently.

 
 The problem is I don't think I could make a difference between Toreador and Brujah.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 09, 2008, 07:31:00 AM
                I'm not saying that I support the Presence idea, but to make Brujah and Toreador different, the Presence bonus for Brujah could add to Intimidate, while the Presence bonus for Toreador could add to Seduction.
 
 I agree with Slim that having level 1 Dominate for Tremere will be confusing to players when they find themselves unable to use it later in the game, no matter how many XP they spend on the discipline.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Slim_Laurence on August 09, 2008, 08:26:00 AM
               
Wesp posted:
The problem is I don't think I could make a difference between Toreador and Brujah.
 

 Honestly, I'm surprised we're discussing it at all. Didn't we have this conversation a couple months ago and we decided it couldn't be done because all disciplines deactivate when you enter dialogue? Maybe this can be fixed by Presence just giving blue dots like various power-ups do.
 
 The way I see it, it can only be done in a couple ways: If there are any unused slots for disciplines, make a new one by copy/pasting Presence and then make modifications to one of them. Essentially, the game would recognize it as two separate disciplines even though they would have the same name. I don't really know what I'm talking about so it probably can't be done. But isn't there some sort of script that makes Dominate unique for Ventrue? Couldn't a similar script be used for the Toreador?
 
 Also, in the P&P, the Brujah used Presence very much the same as the Toreador did. It is a remnant from when they were a noble clan of philosophers and they still use it today to rouse rabble. So, it may still be acceptable to change it for both clans. While this would do nothing to make the Toreador more unique, it would serve well to make Presence a useful discipline for all.
 
 Personally, I think Dominate shouldn't be enhanced for the Tremere at all. It makes the Ventrue unique and it sounds like engine limitations force any such enhancement to be done in a half-assed manner. I don't think it can be done in any graceful way, it would feel forced and in the end will just confuse players. You'll have to be prepared for people asking you on the tech-support forum, "Why isn't Dominate working for my Tremere?" Having a level one Dominate would barely have any real effect on gameplay anyway, to the point that it barely seems worth doing. I say if you want to make the Tremere more powerful, give them a merit since they are the only clan without one: Perhaps Tremere all get a slight duration bonus to Dominate that Ventrue don't get? That sounds like adequate compensation for getting the nerfed version of the discipline and it seems fitting that a common discipline could become more efficient in the hands of a Tremere.                        

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 09, 2008, 08:44:00 AM
               
Slim posted:

 Personally, I think Dominate shouldn't be enhanced for the Tremere at all. It makes the Ventrue unique and it sounds like engine limitations force any such enhancement to be done in a half-assed manner. I don't think it can be done in any graceful way, it would feel forced and in the end will just confuse players.
 

 
 I agree entirely. If Dominate can't be made to work exactly the same for the Tremere, it shouldn't be done. It will cause confusion and it shouldn't be partially done. It needs to work fully for the Tremere or be left out entirely for the Tremere.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 09, 2008, 07:22:00 PM
               
Slim_Laurence posted:

 Didn't we have this conversation a couple months ago and we decided it couldn't be done because all disciplines deactivate when you enter dialogue?
 

 
 Yes, but just recently Valymar reported a trick in this very thread to add the Tremere Domination which even Offkorn didn't discover when doing his PnP mod!
 
 
posted:

 Essentially, the game would recognize it as two separate disciplines even though they would have the same name.
 

 
 This would not work as all the discipline effects and icons would be messed up, because...
 
 
posted:

 But isn't there some sort of script that makes Dominate unique for Ventrue?
 

 
 ...the order in the stats file defines which effects are used and the only difference between Tremere and Ventrue Dominate is that because of this Tremere have Dominate as second discipline while only the third one like with the Ventrue can be used inside dialogue.
 
 
posted:

 You'll have to be prepared for people asking you on the tech-support forum, "Why isn't Dominate working for my Tremere?"

 
 Actually I do already get questions like that because people do not understand why Tremere Domination does not work in dialogue at all. This is one reason why I considered this in the first place.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 10, 2008, 02:57:00 AM
                Don't half-ass it, though. I'd highly recommend waiting to implement Tremere Domination dialogue options until you can get them to work fully rather than only a little bit.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Slim_Laurence on August 10, 2008, 04:11:00 AM
               
Wesp posted:
...the order in the stats file defines which effects are used and the only difference between Tremere and Ventrue Dominate is that because of this Tremere have Dominate as second discipline while only the third one like with the Ventrue can be used inside dialogue.
 

 That doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, I get it, but it just seems like an odd way to write the scripting. What if the Brujah's Presence was reorganized to be their second discipline? Would that allow some effects to be made unique for the Toreador in dialogue? It seems obvious enough that you've probably already thought of it, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.                        

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 10, 2008, 07:28:00 PM
               
Slim_Laurence posted:

 That doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, I get it, but it just seems like an odd way to write the scripting. What if the Brujah's Presence was reorganized to be their second discipline?

 
 As I already said, as soon as you move a discipline in the stats file it all gets messed up because the order of effects is hard-coded somewhere to fit exactly to that file. Bad programming? Oh yes!                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 10, 2008, 07:54:00 PM
                If it won't work 100%, why implement it at all? While things like the junkyard dogs work well, things like a broken dialogue system being implemented are both confusing and aggravating.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Slim_Laurence on August 10, 2008, 08:06:00 PM
               
Wesp posted:
As I already said, as soon as you move a discipline in the stats file it all gets messed up because the order of effects is hard-coded somewhere to fit exactly to that file. Bad programming? Oh yes!
 

 Ah, I understand now. Still doesn't make sense to me why they did that, but I get it. Pardon my ignorance.
 
 
DP posted:
If it won't work 100%, why implement it at all? While things like the junkyard dogs work well, things like a broken dialogue system being implemented are both confusing and aggravating.
 

 Very true. And who knows what kind of bugs you might introduce by forcing the game to do something that is so against it's programming. Sounds like it's not worth the headache to me. Besides, while I think the Tremere should, if anything, have a weaker version than what the Ventrue get, being limited to level one seems pretty useless to me.
                       

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 10, 2008, 08:23:00 PM
                As Slim said, it sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth. It may introduce all kinds of bugs, and it won't be very cool since it only offers level one Dominate dialogue options.
 
 What do other people on PV think about having Tremere capable of using only level 1 Dominate in dialogue at the risk of new bugs?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Slim_Laurence on August 10, 2008, 09:05:00 PM
                Just so I'm clear, as far as the Presence change goes, giving it to one clan may not be possible, but is it possible to just modify the discipline itself so that the stat increase goes to all three clans? Or are we just speculating? Giving a stat increase during dialogue seems a bit different mechanically than giving the Tremere Domination ability.
 
 Anyway, I bring it up because as long as we're asking PV whether or not the Tremere should get dialogue Domination, do people think that Presence should be given stat bonuses to social skills if it means that the Toreador, Venture and the Brujah get it. Essentially, the purpose of this would not be to make the Toreador more social but to make the currently useless Presence a handy discipline for all, like using Blood Buff to lockpick or Auspex to hack. Keeping in mind that this would be true to the P&P as well, as Presence was intended as a social skill and the Brujah used it for the same purposes the Toreador and Venture did.                        

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 11, 2008, 06:31:00 AM
               
Dark666Prophet posted:

 What do other people on PV think about having Tremere capable of using only level 1 Dominate in dialogue at the risk of new bugs?

 
 I think we really need to test this in 5.6 because I don't think there is a risk of new bugs unless I copied something wrong. The only difference to the Ventrue Dominate is the missing graphical effect and the limitation of 1 point but looking at the dialogue files it seems to me Troika intended to do exactly this because lot's of higher Domination conditions are checking for clan Ventrue too while most Domination 1 cases do not!                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 11, 2008, 07:57:00 AM
               
Wesp posted:

 Troika intended to do exactly this because lot's of higher Domination conditions are checking for clan Ventrue too while most Domination 1 cases do not!
 

 
 Really? Hmm...how odd. I don't know what to think, now. @_@                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Slim_Laurence on August 11, 2008, 04:38:00 PM
               
Wesp posted:
The only difference to the Ventrue Dominate is the missing graphical effect and the limitation of 1 point but looking at the dialogue files it seems to me Troika intended to do exactly this because lot's of higher Domination conditions are checking for clan Ventrue too while most Domination 1 cases do not!
 

 Interesting. Still, it seems possible that they may have removed it for a reason... namely the reasons we've already been listing here. Just because it's in the game files doesn't mean it was ever intended for the final game. Then again, we may never know for sure.
 
 It may be possible in the future to remove the condition for Venture completely from the higher levels, thus letting Tremere use any level. It seems that if it can function without this condition than with some script rewriting the higher levels can be written to do the same.
                       

 

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Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 12, 2008, 06:30:00 AM
               
Slim_Laurence posted:

 Interesting. Still, it seems possible that they may have removed it for a reason... namely the reasons we've already been listing here. Just because it's in the game files doesn't mean it was ever intended for the final game. Then again, we may never know for sure.

 
 That may well be possible but like the game is hard-coded Domination for the Tremere could never have worked if their discipline order wouldn't have had Domination at the same place as Thaumaturgy.
 
 
posted:

 It may be possible in the future to remove the condition for Venture completely from the higher levels, thus letting Tremere use any level. It seems that if it can function without this condition than with some script rewriting the higher levels can be written to do the same.
 

 
 The problem here is that with the Tremere only their third discipline works in dialogue which is Thaumaturgy and which can't be moved because of the hard-coded effects. So the trick is that we use Thaumaturgy instead of Domination in the first place which the player will not notice.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Dark666Prophet on August 12, 2008, 12:47:00 PM
                This won't make Tremere-specific lines go away, like Strauss, Bertram, etc. knowing you're Tremere and commenting on it, will it?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: [archive] Wesp5 on August 13, 2008, 06:45:00 AM
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
This won't make Tremere-specific lines go away, like Strauss, Bertram, etc. knowing you're Tremere and commenting on it, will it?

 
 No.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: Ericone11 on July 15, 2010, 09:59:30 AM
                 
 I've decided to include Tremere Domination for cases where Ventrue Domination is 1 for the plus patch. This way the Ventrue keep their unique advantage and the Thaumaturgy trick is hidden. I also think that Troika once intended it that way because a lot of Dominate conditions check for clan Ventrue and in the unused tutorial security guard dialogue there is even one checking for not being clan Tremere!
     <p> </p>

Is this still how Tremere Dominate works with the plus patch?  So as a Tremere, raising your Dominate score will not give you more opportunities to dominate in dialog? 

Not asking for any changes, just checking to be sure.  Thank you,

Eric
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: Wesp5 on July 15, 2010, 01:52:34 PM
So as a Tremere, raising your Dominate score will not give you more opportunities to dominate in dialog? 

Yes, the main advantage of Dominate in dialogue will stay with the Ventrue...
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: Ericone11 on July 15, 2010, 03:41:41 PM
Yes, the main advantage of Dominate in dialogue will stay with the Ventrue...

Great.  I'll keep leveling Thaumaturgy then.

Thanks for the quick reply,

Eric
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: The_Arbitor on March 30, 2016, 06:34:43 AM
Well I stumbled across this thread about 6 years late.

Was playing clan quest mod v3.1.1 after a long break and came up with the idea for a "More Mellow Malkavian Mod" to change the clan into their less batshit bloodline that uses Dominate in place of Dementation. I switched the player model, plan to rewrite a bunch of dialog, and change the disciplines around. Just as a personal mod, don't mind if it breaks the balance or the other playable clans for now. If it's any good then I can package it nicely for release.

Questions being:

Is there a hard limit of playable clans?

Is there a hard limit to dialog options?

Is there any way to switch the disciplines around? (I've read the thread just want to see if new information is out now)


Btw I thought Wesp5's choice to give the Tremere a limited version of Dominate worked really nicely in the end, interesting to see the background on it now.
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: Wesp5 on March 30, 2016, 08:26:44 AM
Is there a hard limit of playable clans?

I think the limit is seven clans, at least the number of disciplines is limited for sure.

Quote
Is there a hard limit to dialog options?

I think you can have nine answers per line and only the first four will be displayed.

Quote
Is there any way to switch the disciplines around? (I've read the thread just want to see if new information is out now)

This might be possible, check The Final Nights and Antitribu Mod so learn about it.

Quote
Btw I thought Wesp5's choice to give the Tremere a limited version of Dominate worked really nicely in the end, interesting to see the background on it now.

I just used Thaumaturgy as condition in the dialogue to make sure only Tremere can get this line.
Title: Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
Post by: Malkav on March 30, 2016, 08:27:36 AM
Well I stumbled across this thread about 6 years late.
...
Questions being:

Is there a hard limit of playable clans?
It is possible to use more than seven clans, but only the first seven turn up in the clan selection menu. So if you want more clans, you have to use some dirty tricks.

Quote
Is there a hard limit to dialog options?
The answer here is yes and no. First the dialog engine shows only the first 4 valid player lines. And most dialog files have npc lines every 10 lines, so there is room for 9 player replies. It is possible to move npc lines, but you have to be very careful.

Quote
Is there any way to switch the disciplines around? (I've read the thread just want to see if new information is out now)
This is really easy. Just edit /vdata/system/clandoc000.txt.
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