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Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2008, 05:42:00 AM »
               
Slim_Laurence posted:
So you mean Tremere will only get Domination in dialogue if the skill requirement is 1? That would mean that it would only be useful early on and when it suddenly disappears a lot of players may get confused.

 
 Yes and no. It can't be done in another way because of engine limitations and even later in the game you get several Domination 1 options because it is connected to the things you try to force and not to the game state as such.
 
 
posted:

 As for Presence, I think it could be balanced if the bonuses are handled intelligently.

 
 The problem is I don't think I could make a difference between Toreador and Brujah.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2008, 07:31:00 AM »
                I'm not saying that I support the Presence idea, but to make Brujah and Toreador different, the Presence bonus for Brujah could add to Intimidate, while the Presence bonus for Toreador could add to Seduction.
 
 I agree with Slim that having level 1 Dominate for Tremere will be confusing to players when they find themselves unable to use it later in the game, no matter how many XP they spend on the discipline.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Slim_Laurence

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2008, 08:26:00 AM »
               
Wesp posted:
The problem is I don't think I could make a difference between Toreador and Brujah.
 

 Honestly, I'm surprised we're discussing it at all. Didn't we have this conversation a couple months ago and we decided it couldn't be done because all disciplines deactivate when you enter dialogue? Maybe this can be fixed by Presence just giving blue dots like various power-ups do.
 
 The way I see it, it can only be done in a couple ways: If there are any unused slots for disciplines, make a new one by copy/pasting Presence and then make modifications to one of them. Essentially, the game would recognize it as two separate disciplines even though they would have the same name. I don't really know what I'm talking about so it probably can't be done. But isn't there some sort of script that makes Dominate unique for Ventrue? Couldn't a similar script be used for the Toreador?
 
 Also, in the P&P, the Brujah used Presence very much the same as the Toreador did. It is a remnant from when they were a noble clan of philosophers and they still use it today to rouse rabble. So, it may still be acceptable to change it for both clans. While this would do nothing to make the Toreador more unique, it would serve well to make Presence a useful discipline for all.
 
 Personally, I think Dominate shouldn't be enhanced for the Tremere at all. It makes the Ventrue unique and it sounds like engine limitations force any such enhancement to be done in a half-assed manner. I don't think it can be done in any graceful way, it would feel forced and in the end will just confuse players. You'll have to be prepared for people asking you on the tech-support forum, "Why isn't Dominate working for my Tremere?" Having a level one Dominate would barely have any real effect on gameplay anyway, to the point that it barely seems worth doing. I say if you want to make the Tremere more powerful, give them a merit since they are the only clan without one: Perhaps Tremere all get a slight duration bonus to Dominate that Ventrue don't get? That sounds like adequate compensation for getting the nerfed version of the discipline and it seems fitting that a common discipline could become more efficient in the hands of a Tremere.                        

 

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Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2008, 08:44:00 AM »
               
Slim posted:

 Personally, I think Dominate shouldn't be enhanced for the Tremere at all. It makes the Ventrue unique and it sounds like engine limitations force any such enhancement to be done in a half-assed manner. I don't think it can be done in any graceful way, it would feel forced and in the end will just confuse players.
 

 
 I agree entirely. If Dominate can't be made to work exactly the same for the Tremere, it shouldn't be done. It will cause confusion and it shouldn't be partially done. It needs to work fully for the Tremere or be left out entirely for the Tremere.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2008, 07:22:00 PM »
               
Slim_Laurence posted:

 Didn't we have this conversation a couple months ago and we decided it couldn't be done because all disciplines deactivate when you enter dialogue?
 

 
 Yes, but just recently Valymar reported a trick in this very thread to add the Tremere Domination which even Offkorn didn't discover when doing his PnP mod!
 
 
posted:

 Essentially, the game would recognize it as two separate disciplines even though they would have the same name.
 

 
 This would not work as all the discipline effects and icons would be messed up, because...
 
 
posted:

 But isn't there some sort of script that makes Dominate unique for Ventrue?
 

 
 ...the order in the stats file defines which effects are used and the only difference between Tremere and Ventrue Dominate is that because of this Tremere have Dominate as second discipline while only the third one like with the Ventrue can be used inside dialogue.
 
 
posted:

 You'll have to be prepared for people asking you on the tech-support forum, "Why isn't Dominate working for my Tremere?"

 
 Actually I do already get questions like that because people do not understand why Tremere Domination does not work in dialogue at all. This is one reason why I considered this in the first place.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2008, 02:57:00 AM »
                Don't half-ass it, though. I'd highly recommend waiting to implement Tremere Domination dialogue options until you can get them to work fully rather than only a little bit.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Slim_Laurence

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2008, 04:11:00 AM »
               
Wesp posted:
...the order in the stats file defines which effects are used and the only difference between Tremere and Ventrue Dominate is that because of this Tremere have Dominate as second discipline while only the third one like with the Ventrue can be used inside dialogue.
 

 That doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, I get it, but it just seems like an odd way to write the scripting. What if the Brujah's Presence was reorganized to be their second discipline? Would that allow some effects to be made unique for the Toreador in dialogue? It seems obvious enough that you've probably already thought of it, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.                        

 

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Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2008, 07:28:00 PM »
               
Slim_Laurence posted:

 That doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, I get it, but it just seems like an odd way to write the scripting. What if the Brujah's Presence was reorganized to be their second discipline?

 
 As I already said, as soon as you move a discipline in the stats file it all gets messed up because the order of effects is hard-coded somewhere to fit exactly to that file. Bad programming? Oh yes!                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2008, 07:54:00 PM »
                If it won't work 100%, why implement it at all? While things like the junkyard dogs work well, things like a broken dialogue system being implemented are both confusing and aggravating.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Slim_Laurence

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2008, 08:06:00 PM »
               
Wesp posted:
As I already said, as soon as you move a discipline in the stats file it all gets messed up because the order of effects is hard-coded somewhere to fit exactly to that file. Bad programming? Oh yes!
 

 Ah, I understand now. Still doesn't make sense to me why they did that, but I get it. Pardon my ignorance.
 
 
DP posted:
If it won't work 100%, why implement it at all? While things like the junkyard dogs work well, things like a broken dialogue system being implemented are both confusing and aggravating.
 

 Very true. And who knows what kind of bugs you might introduce by forcing the game to do something that is so against it's programming. Sounds like it's not worth the headache to me. Besides, while I think the Tremere should, if anything, have a weaker version than what the Ventrue get, being limited to level one seems pretty useless to me.
                       

 

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Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2008, 08:23:00 PM »
                As Slim said, it sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth. It may introduce all kinds of bugs, and it won't be very cool since it only offers level one Dominate dialogue options.
 
 What do other people on PV think about having Tremere capable of using only level 1 Dominate in dialogue at the risk of new bugs?                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Slim_Laurence

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2008, 09:05:00 PM »
                Just so I'm clear, as far as the Presence change goes, giving it to one clan may not be possible, but is it possible to just modify the discipline itself so that the stat increase goes to all three clans? Or are we just speculating? Giving a stat increase during dialogue seems a bit different mechanically than giving the Tremere Domination ability.
 
 Anyway, I bring it up because as long as we're asking PV whether or not the Tremere should get dialogue Domination, do people think that Presence should be given stat bonuses to social skills if it means that the Toreador, Venture and the Brujah get it. Essentially, the purpose of this would not be to make the Toreador more social but to make the currently useless Presence a handy discipline for all, like using Blood Buff to lockpick or Auspex to hack. Keeping in mind that this would be true to the P&P as well, as Presence was intended as a social skill and the Brujah used it for the same purposes the Toreador and Venture did.                        

 

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Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2008, 06:31:00 AM »
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    Dark666Prophet posted:

     What do other people on PV think about having Tremere capable of using only level 1 Dominate in dialogue at the risk of new bugs?

     
     I think we really need to test this in 5.6 because I don't think there is a risk of new bugs unless I copied something wrong. The only difference to the Ventrue Dominate is the missing graphical effect and the limitation of 1 point but looking at the dialogue files it seems to me Troika intended to do exactly this because lot's of higher Domination conditions are checking for clan Ventrue too while most Domination 1 cases do not!                        

     

                                                      

    Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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    Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
    « Reply #58 on: August 11, 2008, 07:57:00 AM »
                   
    Wesp posted:

     Troika intended to do exactly this because lot's of higher Domination conditions are checking for clan Ventrue too while most Domination 1 cases do not!
     

     
     Really? Hmm...how odd. I don't know what to think, now. @_@                        

     

                                                      

    Offline [archive] Slim_Laurence

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    Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
    « Reply #59 on: August 11, 2008, 04:38:00 PM »
                   
    Wesp posted:
    The only difference to the Ventrue Dominate is the missing graphical effect and the limitation of 1 point but looking at the dialogue files it seems to me Troika intended to do exactly this because lot's of higher Domination conditions are checking for clan Ventrue too while most Domination 1 cases do not!
     

     Interesting. Still, it seems possible that they may have removed it for a reason... namely the reasons we've already been listing here. Just because it's in the game files doesn't mean it was ever intended for the final game. Then again, we may never know for sure.
     
     It may be possible in the future to remove the condition for Venture completely from the higher levels, thus letting Tremere use any level. It seems that if it can function without this condition than with some script rewriting the higher levels can be written to do the same.
                           

     

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