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Offline [archive] Valamyr

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2008, 08:48:00 pm »
                Tremere in P&P WoD can do exactly the same thing with Dominate that a Ventrue can. Absolutely no mechanical difference.
 
 The VTM devs chose to do it differently to add flavor to Ventrue. But its definitely not "Un-P&P" or whatever to add options for the Tremere.
 
 One final option we have is to make ALL dominate uses require only 1 blood. In p&p, there's not even a blood cost associated with mesmerize, it can be used at-will. It would lessen the blood requirements to rely on Dominate, but most of the time, a "free" persuasion line does exactly the same thing anyway.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2008, 12:59:00 am »
                So what exactly is the reason why they can't use it in Bloodlines as the Ventrue can?                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2008, 09:25:00 am »
               
Valamyr posted:
Tremere in P&P WoD can do exactly the same thing with Dominate that a Ventrue can. Absolutely no mechanical difference.

 
 Okay, so what about other clans and Presence? Is this P&P conform or was this your idea?                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2008, 09:53:00 pm »
                What about Presence? What're you talking about?                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2008, 07:24:00 am »
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
What about Presence? What're you talking about?

 
 Valymar said that other clans could use Presence in dialogues and I want to know if this is from the P&P game or his own imagination.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] ArdanProfessor

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2008, 12:24:00 pm »
               
Wesp5 posted:
Valymar said that other clans could use Presence in dialogues and I want to know if this is from the P&P game or his own imagination.

 
 That's mostly what it's used for, actually.  In the Pen and Paper, Dominate and Presence are kind of the flip sides of controlling people.  Dominate is flat out overwhelming one person's mind to MAKE them do what you want, where as Presence makes you supernaturally appealing even to large groups.  You don't control them per se, but if you use it successfully they're more willing to do what you want or be swayed by your opinion in the future.  In Bloodlines, the devs basically took the second power Dreadful Mien and spread it out over the whole discipline, the same way they did with Protean (which was about a lot more than just claws).
 
 If you really wanted to make Presence function like PnP, I think the easiest way to do it would be to add it to the conversation feats.  So Appearance + Subterfuge + Presence makes your Seduction feat, etc.  I'd say make it a temporary boost while it's running, but since it shuts off during dialogue it might as well be permanent.  In theory there's no restriction on who it works on anyway, a neonate can even sway an elder with a good roll.  Elders are just more likely to catch it and act accordingly.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2008, 01:05:00 pm »
                Considering how very few uses of Seduction there really are in Bloodlines, I'd support that idea...having Presence add to your Seduction Feat. I might even invest in Presence for the first time if that were the case. Brujah and Toreador's other 2 Disciplines are too tempting, otherwise, and Dominate/Fortitude are as well for the Ventrue.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] ArdanProfessor

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2008, 03:53:00 pm »
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
Considering how very few uses of Seduction there really are in Bloodlines, I'd support that idea...having Presence add to your Seduction Feat. I might even invest in Presence for the first time if that were the case. Brujah and Toreador's other 2 Disciplines are too tempting, otherwise, and Dominate/Fortitude are as well for the Ventrue.

 
 Well, I really just gave seduction as the example.  I meant all three conversation skills since the clans who have Presence are supposed to be talkers, Ventrue most of all, and the power itself is supposed to make it easier to convince people.  I suppose that is something of a major change to make for little to no reason, though it would reduce the dependence on Scholarship somewhat.  That's always irritated me.  
 
 At the risk of going even further off topic, you've seriously never spent points in Presence?  There's like 200 experience in this game.  I usually have all the disciplines to at least 4 by the end.  Fortitude becomes pointless when no one has enough dice to hit you. :-)                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2008, 01:50:00 am »
                Nope, never. I max one or two Disciplines by the end, and I go for max XP always.
 
 However, I think Presence sounds a bit too good if it were to add +1 for each dot to the dialogue options like Persuasion. The game's balance would be hurt.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Valamyr

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2008, 07:08:00 am »
               
Wesp5 posted:
Dark666Prophet posted:
What about Presence? What're you talking about?

 
 Valymar said that other clans could use Presence in dialogues and I want to know if this is from the P&P game or his own imagination.

 
 Not my imagination. I'm sorry, I assumed you were familiar with PNP mechanics.
 
 If anything Presence is mainly a social, not combat tool, in PNP. Its less 'blunt' than Dominate but no less effective at getting people what you want them to do, by controlling their emotions. This is the greatest strength of the Toreador, and the fact Presence has no social effects in Bloodlines is a large reason why playing them doesn't feel 'Toreador' at all.
 
 Long story short; Toreadors have exactly as many rights to have Presence-inspired dialog options than Ventrues with Dominate. I suspect its probably something the devs planned but had to cut, like most clan-specific stuff.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2008, 09:20:00 am »
               
Valamyr posted:

 Long story short; Toreadors have exactly as many rights to have Presence-inspired dialog options than Ventrues with Dominate.

 
 Hmmm, I'm still not sure what to do about Tremere Dominate but I think dialogue Presence would probably go too far. I can follow your thoughts about the Toreador, but what about the Brujah? Also then Ventrue would have gotten yet another option. Although this would raise them above the Tremere again which would make sense. What do you think?                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] MadeChina

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2008, 12:45:00 pm »
               
Wesp5 posted:
Valamyr posted:

 Long story short; Toreadors have exactly as many rights to have Presence-inspired dialog options than Ventrues with Dominate.

 
 Hmmm, I'm still not sure what to do about Tremere Dominate but I think dialogue Presence would probably go too far. I can follow your thoughts about the Toreador, but what about the Brujah? Also then Ventrue would have gotten yet another option. Although this would raise them above the Tremere again which would make sense. What do you think?

 I object to that. The game was constructed so the player could take different paths in order to develop his or hers character, and eventually rendering the "Jack of all trades" logic useless.
 Adding more reliance to every feat would damage the gameplay, or at least the balance (that should be obvious), and even if you can tone down things, you still have an offensive discipline which affects the primary dialogue options (being seduction, intimidation and persuassion) - a thing which, by all means, makes it worth investing in more than in the scolarship or charisma stats.
 Since the scolarship is quite useful, the charisma development just goes to hell with the Brujah, Toreador and Ventrue clans.
 Since the Toreador's main feature is extensive dialogues and interaction, I'd have to object to these changes, since they touch too many gameplay elements.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Valamyr

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2008, 07:16:00 pm »
               
MadeChina posted:
Wesp5 posted:
Valamyr posted:

 Long story short; Toreadors have exactly as many rights to have Presence-inspired dialog options than Ventrues with Dominate.

 
 Hmmm, I'm still not sure what to do about Tremere Dominate but I think dialogue Presence would probably go too far. I can follow your thoughts about the Toreador, but what about the Brujah? Also then Ventrue would have gotten yet another option. Although this would raise them above the Tremere again which would make sense. What do you think?

 I object to that. The game was constructed so the player could take different paths in order to develop his or hers character, and eventually rendering the "Jack of all trades" logic useless.
 Adding more reliance to every feat would damage the gameplay, or at least the balance (that should be obvious), and even if you can tone down things, you still have an offensive discipline which affects the primary dialogue options (being seduction, intimidation and persuassion) - a thing which, by all means, makes it worth investing in more than in the scolarship or charisma stats.
 Since the scolarship is quite useful, the charisma development just goes to hell with the Brujah, Toreador and Ventrue clans.
 Since the Toreador's main feature is extensive dialogues and interaction, I'd have to object to these changes, since they touch too many gameplay elements.

 
 And you're probably entirely right. I was explaining this to put some PnP perspective on these disciplines. But I don't think I'd make major changes myself, either, not without doing a significant overhaul that goes beyond the realm of the "patch".                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2008, 08:17:00 pm »
               
Valamyr posted:

 But I don't think I'd make major changes myself, either, not without doing a significant overhaul that goes beyond the realm of the "patch".

 
 I've decided to include Tremere Domination for cases where Ventrue Domination is 1 for the plus patch. This way the Ventrue keep their unique advantage and the Thaumaturgy trick is hidden. I also think that Troika once intended it that way because a lot of Dominate conditions check for clan Ventrue and in the unused tutorial security guard dialogue there is even one checking for not being clan Tremere!
 
 Regarding Presence in dialogue, I will not do this because it is not obvious for non PnP players, the results should be different to Dominate and there isn't space in the dialogue files for it anyway.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Slim_Laurence

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2008, 12:29:00 am »
                Hmmm, interesting. I didn't think you'd go for that. So you mean Tremere will only get Domination in dialogue if the skill requirement is 1? That would mean that it would only be useful early on and when it suddenly disappears a lot of players may get confused. Perhaps requirements instead should be doubled, so a Domination that would require level 2 for a Ventrue would require level 4 for a Tremere, and possibly cost more blood. Nah, instead of a direct double, maybe make the requirements for a Tremere 0/1/2/2/3. I think limiting the use of it to level 1 only still makes it pretty useless and thus makes the addition kind of pointless. This would at least give Tremere the ability while still making it obvious that it will never be as useful as the Ventrue version.
 
 As for Presence, I think it could be balanced if the bonuses are handled intelligently. You don't have to get +1 to all skills from level 1, but maybe just +1 Seduction, level 2 gives you +1 to Seduction and Intimidate, by level 3 you have +1 to all three, level 4 gives you +2 to Seduction and Intimidate with +1 to Persuasion, and then level 5 you have +2 to all three. That's comparable with bonuses you get from Auspex or Blood Buff and it might make the Toreodor do what they were always supposed to do. You could even throw Haggle into the mix, though I wouldn't recommend making the total bonus higher than +6. The effects of Presence may not be obvious to non PNP players but the Toreodor were always sold as social Vampires, and as is the anti-social vampires, the Malks, have more advantages in dialogue than they do. The Brujah probably shouldn't get it, like Domination for the Tremere and Ventrue, or at least a weaker version that only offers +1 to all at level 5. Or better yet, only Intimidate goes up for them getting a +3 bonus at level 5. And given how useless Presence is now I don't think a stat bonus would make it too powerful. Do you think anyone would bother with Auspex if it weren't for the stat bonus? Like I said, you didn't have to play the PNP to know that Toreador are supposed to have social advantages. I say that if it can be done, do it.                        

 

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