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Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2008, 05:59:00 pm »
               
Pixie posted:

 wow. offkorn is kind of a jerkbag.
 

 
 He's kind of a resident douche on Planet Vampire. You'll get used to him. He's an asshole, but he's rather intelligent.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] MadeChina

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2008, 06:19:00 pm »
                I really don't know how the discipline checker works, but I think that if you change the discipline order of the Tremere to match that of the Ventrue, the Tremere may have the Dominate's dialogue options.
 For example, if the Ventrue's order is:
 Presence-Whatever-Dominate
 And the Tremere's order is:
 Dominate-Celerity-Thaumaturagy
 Then Dominate should have a dialogue effect for the Tremere as well if their order is:
 Celerity-Thaumaturagy-Dominate
 Since it's the only difference I could come up with (since the dialogue files check for disciplines in this case, not for clans), it's worth giving it a try, doesn't it?
 
 But more importantly is what's the P&P take on this - since adding more features is nice and all, but after all - it should be true to the White Wolf's P&P game.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Offkorn

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2008, 08:17:00 pm »
               
Pixxee_O_kais posted:
wow. offkorn is kind of a jerkbag.
 

 
 Ha.
 
 If you knew even the most basic things about how the dialog system worked, you'd understand precisely why I said what I said. Since Wesp has been modding this game as long as he has (he started two monthes or so after the first full version of the P&P Mod was completed), he should be damn well aware of why he can't include it in his compilation. "Why don't you explain it to him?" you ask? Because I hate him, this game, and idiots like yourself who just type whatever happens to float through their empty skulls without having the faintest clue about what is being discussed.
 
 If he wants to waste time pretending that allowing non-Ventrue to use their disciplines as a substitute for Dominate is a good or 'easily' implemented idea, hey, I'm all for letting him waste his time. It's not like he has anything better to do after all.                        

 

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Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2008, 08:44:00 pm »
                Offkorn, I think Wesp was just asking you, since you're well-versed in P&P, if Tremere should be able to use Dominate in conversation because they have the Dominate Discipline. I think he didn't know, and was just wanting to ask you because he values your knowledge on the subject.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Pixxee_O_kais

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2008, 08:41:00 pm »
                Somebody failed their frenzy check.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Valamyr

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2008, 10:11:00 pm »
                Wow, chill everyone. Offkorn, if you hate this game, why are you even here? ...
 
 Let me try to answer some questions. The proposal I made above... is probably not fit for the plus patch, no, because the devs purposely intended Tremere to not be able to use these options. However, if you WANTED to do it, it could be done in the following way (its quite a bit more work than what I proposed above).
 
 You'd have to INSERT NEW LINES instead of replacing the existing ones, which would be copies of the Ventrue dominate lines, but for the Tremere. Every time there's a dominate option in the files, you'd add in an equivalent Thaumaturgy line instead. Its quite a bit of work, but entirely feasible, since I already did it in the past (Too long ago, i believe it was version 2.2 of Wesp's patch back then, so that work is essentially outdated), If it's done this way, it doesn't break the Ventrue options at all.
 
 And yes, blood loss would function. If you add say "Presence 3" as a trigger, it would cost 3 blood, even though Presence never actually costs more than 1 blood otherwise. So, exactly like Dominate.
 
 My suggestion, if we are to add "magic" lines to other clans, would be to use them only where it makes sense, write them with the appropriate clan's flavor, and not copy/paste the forceful-styled Ventrue Dominate options. But, since you asked, yes, it's entirely feasible. I posted my work back then on game banshee, and several users liked it. A bunch more complained I was breaking a restriction that had been created with a purpose, though.
                       

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 05:52:00 am »
               
Valamyr posted:

 You'd have to INSERT NEW LINES instead of replacing the existing ones, which would be copies of the Ventrue dominate lines, but for the Tremere. Every time there's a dominate option in the files, you'd add in an equivalent Thaumaturgy line instead.
 

 
 That's what I suspected, although I didn't yet get around to try it with all the other stuff posted in the 5.5 thread. If this really works I think it would quite well fit into the plus patch as I remember lots of people complaining that Tremere can't use Domination in dialogue. I don't know about Presence though. Is this a common feature in PnP?                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 07:45:00 am »
                It didn't seem like Tremere were intended to be able to use it in dialogue.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 09:15:00 am »
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
It didn't seem like Tremere were intended to be able to use it in dialogue.

 
 Yeah, but it wasn't intended for any clan to use Blood Heal or the sniper rifle in the released game either wink .
 
 Still, if I'll decide to do this, I doubt it would be possible to swap the Dominate and Thaumaturgy disciplines around, so this would limit the Thaumaturgy-Dominate trick of the Tremere to one point dialogues which should be enough to not overpower them compared to the Ventrue.
 
 Update:
 
 I finally played around with this a bit. On the positive side it is indeed possible to use the Thaumaturgy-Dominate trick of Valymar happy ! Maybe Offkorn reacted so annoyed because he never figured that one out for his PnP mod? On the negative side there is the limitation to one point as mentioned above and also the missing graphical effect, though a sound can be applied. So should I implement this kind of limited Tremere Domination for the plus patch?
 
 On the other hand it is also possible to swap the Dominate and Auspex disciplines for Tremere to get the full Domination possibilities of the Ventrue. The big disadvantage here is that due to the discipline switch the graphical effects of all disciplines get mixed up so this is a no go from my point of view.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Valamyr

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 03:10:00 pm »
                Of course it works, I did it countless times.
 
 I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying about why it must be limited to 1 point dialogs, though. If you intend to do it, might as well go all the way. Otherwise you'll give people a cool gimmick in Santa Monica and they'll be disappointed that it doesn't work anymore downtown. (Most of the time, the later you are in the game, the more blood the dialogs demand).                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] MadeChina

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2008, 03:37:00 pm »
               
Valamyr posted:
Of course it works, I did it countless times.
 
 I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying about why it must be limited to 1 point dialogs, though. If you intend to do it, might as well go all the way. Otherwise you'll give people a cool gimmick in Santa Monica and they'll be disappointed that it doesn't work anymore downtown. (Most of the time, the later you are in the game, the more blood the dialogs demand).

 Using your way, it checks for the Thaumaturagy values.
 Doing so, you get Dominate dialogue options without the dependance of Dominate.
 Limiting the Dominate dialogue options to the absolute minimum is the only way to simulate Dominate dependance.
 
 Anyway, I believe that my way might work, since (as I said) it's the only difference that I've found. Since I no longer have the game (lost my discs), can someone else check it out? It should be very basic.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Valamyr

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2008, 03:56:00 pm »
                Ah, I understand. Let me test out something real quick, I may have an idea to simulate the dependence correctly.
 
 Edit: Nope, thats right, no real way to check for dependency. Though I doubt many Tremere players choose to not get Dominate up to 3 asap. Its very useful.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2008, 04:47:00 pm »
                If players see level one Dominate dialogue options, they're going to think they can get better dialogue options if they keep investing in Dominate, which is untrue. It needs to either work the same as it does for the Ventrue, or not at all (for the Tremere), I say.
 
 Offkorn, in terms of the oWoD, should Tremere be able to do this like Ventrue can? I think that's what should decide if they can or can't use it in dialogues.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Wesp5

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2008, 04:55:00 pm »
               
Dark666Prophet posted:
If players see level one Dominate dialogue options, they're going to think they can get better dialogue options if they keep investing in Dominate, which is untrue. It needs to either work the same as it does for the Ventrue, or not at all (for the Tremere), I say.

 
 I would just add a few one point Tremere Domination options in lesser cases to keep the difference to the Ventrue. Also to MadeChina, swapping the order of the disciplines is exactly what I tried and what ended up in all the graphical effects being messed up. I don't think this is possible in another way.                        

 

                                                  

Offline [archive] Dark666Prophet

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Re: Tremere using Dominate in conversation
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2008, 05:02:00 pm »
                It just sounds like it's going to give people the impression that they need to level up their Dominate when playing Tremere because they'll be able to do all the Dominate options if they do so. However, that's not how it'll work.
 
 Again, I'm pretty sure we should wait and see what Offkorn says the WoD rule on that is...                        

 

                                                  

 

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