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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released  (Read 13267 times)

Offline Norrwin

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2022, 01:26:33 pm »
All of the fixes I listed you have already ported into the UP.
Good, but you made it sound on Reddit as if this was not the case.
That seems odd, maybe it's a language thing. I reference the UP three times, and only the UP. Lots of people comment on how bad my writing is, so there is that too. I'll include the complete post if anyone is curious.
Spoiler for Hiden:
The part about it being fine and dandy is completely true. The part about the UP bug fixing being long finished isn't though.

I'm still fixing bugs that have been in the game since 2004, some of them quite serious and some less so.

I fixed the bug in FU building that sometimes stopped the blades from moving back and forth when loading from a save. Fixed some holes at the Society of Leopold where the player could fall through the terrain. Fixed a bug in the Temple pedestal statue puzzle that prevented the player from progressing and corrupted the save file so it could no longer be used. And ...

Most recently I worked out how to improve the bad reflections in the sewer areas and that method will be going into future UPs.

All of these happened post 10.8 because I only recently started working on VTMB. If the UP bug fixing is long finished, someone forgot to tell me!
Quote
Of course you will be credited for the reflection fix in the script and readme although I edited the map myself and it looks a little bit different to yours. The readme line looks like below because I don't want to blow it up with more details. Is it okay?

Improved reflections in Kanker's lair big hall, thanks to Norrwin.

I would prefer:

Found a way to improve reflections in sewer areas, thanks to Norrwin.
Improved reflections in Kanker's lair big hall.

I provided a method to improve the reflections that can be used in all the sewers. It's what I am planning on doing and what I would expect you would do as well. The work you did in the plaguebearers sewer is all your work/implementation. I didn't have anything to do with that implementation except contribute the method for you do improve the reflections. My thoughts anyway.

Not that it matters but I know why the reflections are bad, which is a big hurdle toward finding a permanent solution. It's that work that led me to the mat_clipz parameter. The "surface" of the water has to be perfectly flat; it can't have "features". It's especially bad in the plaguebearers sewer because of the waterfall mist effects. Turn those off and the majority of bad reflections go away.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2022, 03:02:17 pm »
That seems odd, maybe it's a language thing.
Could be, I am not a native English speaker.

Quote
Found a way to improve reflections in sewer areas, thanks to Norrwin.
Improved reflections in Kanker's lair big hall.
The problem is that I tested it in the areas leading to the hall and I think the fix makes those more buggy. I haven't tested it with other areas yet and I don't kow if I will. Even in the big hall there are still artifacts when you turn the light on with mat_fullbright 1. And although I did the implementation in Kanker's lair myself, I would never have found this on my own, so the credit to you belongs there!

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The "surface" of the water has to be perfectly flat; it can't have "features".
Very interesting! But as I said, I haven't been looking at other water yet. I'm still busy with the hunter implementation.

Offline SCO

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2022, 08:38:29 am »
Two things:

If there are hunters in hub maps (from broken masquerade), is killing them with mass suicide or suicide supposed to lose humanity? I don't think so myself, is suicide bugged? Can it be fixed somehow (i'm not afraid of editing the code, in fact, i already unpacked it to add a custom discipline, among other things).

Also the hunters don't drop weapons, which might be on purpose i know.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2022, 08:40:32 am by SCO »

Offline SCO

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2022, 09:16:22 am »
I did notice that there is a error when killing a hunter in the console.

It's caused by a typo in the name of a variable in the maps code:

grep -ri 'huntesdead' Undisciplined_Caitiff/
grep: Undisciplined_Caitiff/maps/la_hub_1.bsp: binary file matches
grep: Undisciplined_Caitiff/maps/ch_hub_1.bsp: binary file matches
grep: Undisciplined_Caitiff/maps/hw_hub_1.bsp: binary file matches
grep: Undisciplined_Caitiff/maps/sm_hub_1.bsp: binary file matches

(it's supposed to be 'huntersDead' (grep -i is case insensitive search so i'm not sure the case is right for the map error).

Since it's easier to fix the python code that uses this variable (only vamputil.py) i did it and the error went away, but it didn't affect the humanity loss.

Note: killing the girl hunter doesn't lose humanity (somehow) but killing the other two does, which is something i got confused, so lose 3 or 4 masquerade to see it or edit the vamputil.py 'checkMasquerade' function to initialize the level to 4 instead of getting the masquerade level from the player object.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2022, 09:24:26 am by SCO »

Offline SCO

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2022, 10:07:14 am »
edit: turns out this function has nothing to do with it, check next post.

Ah. It seems that wesp changed a long while back the humanity system to be scriptable in python (with a python callback 'civilianDeath()', and presumably disabled the engine clans auto humanity loss (somehow which i haven't discovered yet, please tell me). So all the other mods which are based on the UP have that system, so the hunters do not have humanity loss, but here this is not the case.

The only thing that is still confusing me is 'how to disable' and 'why does the redhead hunter does not cause a loss'.

I suspect the first might be some numeric value on the map npc properties.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2022, 10:31:52 am by SCO »

Offline SCO

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2022, 10:31:10 am »
Found it. It was a old bug that wesp fixed. The stats the hunters made by npcmaker on those maps have HunterSafeArea, HunterSafeArea2, HunterSafeArea3 names in npctemplate002.txt for each hunter. However, only HunterSafeArea sets the neverinnocent flag originally.

Offline Norrwin

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2022, 05:44:26 pm »
Found it. It was a old bug that wesp fixed. The stats the hunters made by npcmaker on those maps have HunterSafeArea, HunterSafeArea2, HunterSafeArea3 names in npctemplate002.txt for each hunter. However, only HunterSafeArea sets the neverinnocent flag originally.
Thanks for the report and taking the time to look into this. I'll do the same and decide what I want to do about it.

Offline SCO

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2022, 11:34:49 pm »
Norrwin i also recommend you copy the unofficial patch and place a empty file named Vampire-999.sav in the save directory by default

This tricks the game engine into allowing the 'skip intro' checkbox even without a save available (it doesn't show in the load game menu) even in the first time, which otherwise it wouldn't - even with the vchar_skip_intro "1" setting splattered all over the config files.

Offline Norrwin

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2022, 02:55:22 am »
The early releases of the mod had that fake save file, up until v1.3. Up to v1.3 there wasn't anything significant modded in the opening cutscene, so skipping it was fine. Since v1.3 I want players to watch the intro scene once, in which case the fake save file isn't needed.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2022, 09:26:04 am by Wesp5 »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2022, 09:26:54 am »
So what have you modded in the opening cutscenes?

Offline Norrwin

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2022, 02:27:00 am »
So what have you modded in the opening cutscenes?
I wanted the opening cutscene to complement the conversation in the README section that tries to explain what the mod is about and how I designed it to be played. I like the intro cutscene I came up with because it accomplishes what I wanted.

I tried to make the mod content integrate with the original game designs, conventions, and concepts as I understand them.

What the player "sees" depends on what kind of player they are and not what I modded. I made the mod intro video in much the same way as the game intro cutscene. I don't want to get involved in explaining the details of what I modded in the game, but I do want to explain the process in the video because it is directly tied to the way I want the mod played.

Every screenshot in that intro video has multiple "spoilers". For example, the screenshot in the Tremere apartment. The player can't play as Tremere, but the player can get the Tremere apartment. Which implies other things that I want the player to explore.

The majority of the mod content is intended to be experienced in that same "active" way. If the player isn't being active, the mod content often just silently passes them by without any indication or notice.

Using the example above, if the player doesn't connect the dots that the Tremere apartment can be an option, nothing will happen, and the player will never realize anything could have happened.

This same thing that can happen to the player in the base game if they never realize that getting the Skyline apartment is an option. The big difference is that players can look everything up about the base game. In this case, I've maybe slightly ruined the option about the Tremere apartment by printing it here.

I do want players to understand the generic how and why of the mod. I don't want to get into explaining details because that is the best part of the game for me, discovering something new about the game all on my own. It's the most complex and difficult part of the game but also the most rewarding.

As many times as I've played the base game, I always find several new things every playthrough. Other players play the game once and feel like they can't play again unless it's with a mod that significantly changes the game. That goes back to the idea that what a player "sees" doesn't have anything to do with the actual game content available.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2022, 09:24:48 am »
I like the intro cutscene I came up with because it accomplishes what I wanted.
I don't understand. I just started your mod with each of the 4 new clans and the embrace cutscene starts exactly the same! In only watched it completely as a Caitiff, but I didn't see any differences except for the restored plus patch stuff that of course wasn't there. Do I miss something?

Also if you want to make sure that the player can't skip the intro use the following traiteffect in your clan:


            TraitEffect
            {
                "Trait"        "vchar_skip_intro"
                "Modifier"  "Value 0"
            }

Offline SCO

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2022, 02:42:33 pm »
Yeah... what about you don't do that? It's frankly annoying to have to mod mods because of decisions like this, and i don't even want to think about how annoyed people that watched the intro hundreds of times but don't know how to avoid this will be.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2022, 05:27:45 pm »
Yeah... what about you don't do that? It's frankly annoying to have to mod mods because of decisions like this, and i don't even want to think about how annoyed people that watched the intro hundreds of times but don't know how to avoid this will be.
Well, for the hunter missions I had to do this, because otherwise you can see your hunter being embraced which makes no sense :)!

Offline Norrwin

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Re: The Undisciplined Caitiff Mod Released
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2022, 03:06:30 am »
I like the intro cutscene I came up with because it accomplishes what I wanted.
I don't understand. I just started your mod with each of the 4 new clans and the embrace cutscene starts exactly the same! In only watched it completely as a Caitiff, but I didn't see any differences except for the restored plus patch stuff that of course wasn't there. Do I miss something?

I think the confusion is that when I said there isn't anything significant before 1.3, and after 1.3 I would like the player to watch the intro one time, the confusion is over the word significant.

When I said significant, I meant I put a fair amount of time, effort, and thought into the intro and I like the way it turned out. But I have to guess that significant to you means I having to create new scenes, or areas, or ... overt type content.

Therefore, I tried to explain that isn't the main idea behind the mod, it is more about paying attention. It is about subtle changes that lead the player to discovery. In terms of the intro cutscene, one of the things it does is provide quick glimpses of new character models or new armors in various ways. The idea is that this hints that there is some additional content, then the player can do whatever with that hint.

This is also something I'm trying to tie into the README, where I emphasize the importance of not making assumptions based on the idea the player is playing a UP or the legacy game. Going back to the Tremere apartment screenshot in the into video. I suppose the natural reaction is to assume that if the player selects clan 7 they can get the Tremere apartment. But that is not true at all, clan 7 can never get the Tremere apartment. To unlock the true meaning of that spoiler requires more though, and potentially effort I suppose.

Sometimes following a hint will lead to the expected result and sometimes it won't at all. If it were always one way or the other that would be predictable and boring.

The mod does contain new cutscenes, a new weapon, etc. But everything I try to do in a subtle way because I want it to blend into the original game. Even the opening cutscene I shortened 12 seconds, not because I wanted the player to notice this change but because I thought it was useless and would never be missed.

Quote
Also if you want to make sure that the player can't skip the intro use the following traiteffect in your clan:


            TraitEffect
            {
                "Trait"        "vchar_skip_intro"
                "Modifier"  "Value 0"
            }

That is something I would never be interested in doing. Contrary to what it feels like the common opinion is I try to avoid ever forcing the player to do anything.

 

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