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Offline Wesp5

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2021, 09:10:36 pm »
@argikt, you've had some success in creating vehicle traffic for bloodlines, haven't you? Including buses?
EntenSchreck managed it too, but this still makes no sense and is probably not possible without recompilation.

Offline thewarsend

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2021, 09:28:16 pm »
EntenSchreck managed it too, but this still makes no sense and is probably not possible without recompilation.
Well, I never tested this, so take it with a grain of salt, but it should be possible to do without recompiling.
It would be a lot of work, but using entspy (or something similar) you could add a car or two and add "func_keyframed_mover" to get the added cars moving on the road. This is how they did it on the taxi ride map and it should work elsewhere as well.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2021, 08:28:29 am »
It would be a lot of work, but using entspy (or something similar) you could add a car or two and add "func_keyframed_mover" to get the added cars moving on the road.
But "func_keyframed_mover" is a brush, so there is no way to do this as entity except if there would accidentally be another brush around that could be cloned to fix exactly that purpose. Not forgetting you would need to syncronise it to a particle effect!


Offline atrblizzard

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2021, 10:03:51 pm »
There is a limit for sure, but I believe you can't reach that limit just by combining SM Hub and SM Pier.
As far as I remember he tried merging all SM maps which might have been too much in the end!


As far as I can tell, Bloodlines should have the same limitation as Half-Life 2 Beta. I remember back when Bloodlines Revival was being worked on (2006) which used either HL2's native or Source SDK Base 2006's compilers, it couldn't compile large maps, mostly the hub ones.
That issue was solved later with the 2007 version of the engine/compilers.

I always thought the larger the viewing distances the longer it takes a map to compile.

That only is an issue if you aren't optimizing the levels properly. In Source you can use func_viscluster to reduce vis compilation time, similar to how Troika handled it with the noviz textures.
On the other hand, that is also why they used skyboxes extensively. It's cheap to render them and has small vis calculations. At least in Bloodlines, they had noviz plastered all over the skyboxes in the hub maps.

I apologize for hijacking this thread. While I only had a glance on the water issue on compiled maps with the unofficial SDK, it is something I can't investigate for the time being. Sorry about that, thewarsend  :58_83:

On another note, here's some progress on getting Bloodlines on Source 2 that can be found on my Twitter account. I've merged the pier, the beach, the two pawnshops, gallery, diner, bailbonds and yes, even the basement. Only problematic area in Santa Monica right now is the Asylum. Will need to find a solution to that. I'll be sharing more about the Source 2 version in a following thread soon.







Offline thewarsend

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2021, 01:13:36 am »
I apologize for hijacking this thread. While I only had a glance on the water issue on compiled maps with the unofficial SDK, it is something I can't investigate for the time being. Sorry about that, thewarsend  :58_83:
It is quite alright. I have been waiting to hear from you so long that even this is better than nothing. :)

On another note, here's some progress on getting Bloodlines on Source 2 that can be found on my Twitter account. I've merged the pier, the beach, the two pawnshops, gallery, diner, bailbonds and yes, even the basement. Only problematic area in Santa Monica right now is the Asylum. Will need to find a solution to that. I'll be sharing more about the Source 2 version in a following thread soon.
I had no idea you were working on this. This is awesome! I have lots and lots of suggestions! :D

Please tell me we utilize this for Bloodlines. Please?! I had dreams about this! :D
Overwriting engine files with Source 2 ones would be the perfect solution for all our problems. Of course I know it wouldn't exactly be overwriting them, most files are not exactly the same, but we could call it as such to avoid any potential problems. We could create a tool that only has Source 2 files and a model and texture convertor, model and texture files could be converted in place and sound files could be used as is.
Literally anything but some VR gimmick, please. This is what everyone who gets their hands on Source 2 is doing and I am quite honestly sick of it. Not everyone has a VR headset. In fact most people don't.




As for my suggestions, an edited yet consistent Hub map would always be superior to a untouched yet inconsistent Hub map. What I mean is, Hub map should be edited or slightly extended to fit the interior in some maps. Trying to keep the exterior maps as they are would be a bad approach.
Foxy Boxes interior doesn't fit the exterior at all and the building it is placed in is supposed to be an apartment building, in fact this building is where the player gets embraced. Getting that room back and moving Foxy Boxes to a corner would be the best solution. Foxy Boxes could have an entrance like Gimble's basement, which would make a lot more sense. Foxy Boxes interior needs to be edited either way.

Some not too distant 2d sprites could be, nay should be replaced with low poly 3d props. They are obvious enough in Bloodlines, in Source 2 they are bound to look even more out of place.

Pawn Shop haven building has a balcony of sorts with no entrance. I am not sure what could be done with it, but do with that information as you will.
There are highways visible from maps, light particles move there sometimes but never actual vehicles. It would be really cool if you could place moving vehicles there. Vehicles would be visible from the street and they would be especially visible from haven and the apartment next to it.

You could have NPC moving in places visible yet inaccessible by player. Like beyond the gates in Hollywood. Illusion of a more expensive world could be maintained that way. Which was something that was lacking in Bloodlines.


Nocturne Theatre interior and exterior doesn't match at all, but it would be incredibly cool if you could make it fit. Back side of the Theatre is especially problematic.


Also it doesn't match the back side of the Theatre from the tutorial map, but the location of the tutorial is entirely different anyway. I feel the solution I and Wesp5 came up for it in plus patch absolutely perfect for it. Theatre back entrance and tutorial location are entirely different, Jack actually picks you up from the back entrance of the Theatre and takes you to the tutorial map.

Most buildings in hub maps lack doors, which is just plain weird.

Hotel map in Hollywood makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Exterior is way too small. Building itself is too short to be a proper hotel. It has a lobby of sorts, but only one or two more rooms and these rooms would be too small to be proper hotel rooms anyway. Not to mention this building supposed to have three floors including the lobby, but there is only one set of stairs that directly leading to the mid floor. There is no way to access the top floor.
It would work better if the building itself was a little bit taller and if you would need to take an elevator to the hotel room you need to get to instead of taking the stairs. It could be more like the Empire Arms Hotels elevator, where buttons for other floors exists but you just can't click on them.



As with everything, layout should make sense.

I am sure you weren't expecting a wall of text when you posted this, but this is so amazing I couldn't resist. Sorry.





Edit: Forgot to mention, I know full Source 2 SDK hasn't been released yet. This was about what you plan to do with it in the future. :)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 09:29:49 am by thewarsend »

Offline SCO

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2021, 11:20:05 am »
Those cars don't have a collision model that works last time i saw them - in the ww2 mod, a error dumped me on the 'car road' when exiting one of the buildings in a unexpected way ( a vent iirc ).

Offline atrblizzard

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2021, 09:05:56 pm »
I had no idea you were working on this. This is awesome! I have lots and lots of suggestions! :D

Please tell me we utilize this for Bloodlines. Please?! I had dreams about this! :D
Overwriting engine files with Source 2 ones would be the perfect solution for all our problems. Of course I know it wouldn't exactly be overwriting them, most files are not exactly the same, but we could call it as such to avoid any potential problems. We could create a tool that only has Source 2 files and a model and texture convertor, model and texture files could be converted in place and sound files could be used as is.
Literally anything but some VR gimmick, please. This is what everyone who gets their hands on Source 2 is doing and I am quite honestly sick of it. Not everyone has a VR headset. In fact most people don't.

Luckily Source 2 has tools to import models and materials, sounds and even maps. That way, the majority of the original contents will be needed. Being a mod to Source 2 is the best approach to go for many reasons.

As for my suggestions, an edited yet consistent Hub map would always be superior to a untouched yet inconsistent Hub map. What I mean is, Hub map should be edited or slightly extended to fit the interior in some maps. Trying to keep the exterior maps as they are would be a bad approach.
Foxy Boxes interior doesn't fit the exterior at all and the building it is placed in is supposed to be an apartment building, in fact this building is where the player gets embraced. Getting that room back and moving Foxy Boxes to a corner would be the best solution. Foxy Boxes could have an entrance like Gimble's basement, which would make a lot more sense. Foxy Boxes interior needs to be edited either way.

Some not too distant 2d sprites could be, nay should be replaced with low poly 3d props. They are obvious enough in Bloodlines, in Source 2 they are bound to look even more out of place.

Pawn Shop haven building has a balcony of sorts with no entrance. I am not sure what could be done with it, but do with that information as you will.
There are highways visible from maps, light particles move there sometimes but never actual vehicles. It would be really cool if you could place moving vehicles there. Vehicles would be visible from the street and they would be especially visible from haven and the apartment next to it.

I was thinking about the same too, where the hub map would be expanded in order to fit in the interior parts (example Asylum and the clinic) and keeping the layout as much as possible to the original layout.

Nocturne Theatre interior and exterior doesn't match at all, but it would be incredibly cool if you could make it fit. Back side of the Theatre is especially problematic.

Also it doesn't match the back side of the Theatre from the tutorial map, but the location of the tutorial is entirely different anyway. I feel the solution I and Wesp5 came up for it in plus patch absolutely perfect for it. Theatre back entrance and tutorial location are entirely different, Jack actually picks you up from the back entrance of the Theatre and takes you to the tutorial map.

Most buildings in hub maps lack doors, which is just plain weird.

Hotel map in Hollywood makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Exterior is way too small. Building itself is too short to be a proper hotel. It has a lobby of sorts, but only one or two more rooms and these rooms would be too small to be proper hotel rooms anyway. Not to mention this building supposed to have three floors including the lobby, but there is only one set of stairs that directly leading to the mid floor. There is no way to access the top floor.
It would work better if the building itself was a little bit taller and if you would need to take an elevator to the hotel room you need to get to instead of taking the stairs. It could be more like the Empire Arms Hotels elevator, where buttons for other floors exists but you just can't click on them.

As with everything, layout should make sense.

I'm curious if they started these maps with the proper exterior size or they resized it during development. As far as I know, only the Santa Monica map was revised. Would be great to get in contact with former devs to ask about these sort of things.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I know full Source 2 SDK hasn't been released yet. This was about what you plan to do with it in the future. :)

I don't think there ever be a full Source 2 SDK. At least not in the old fashioned way. The closest we get to it is with s&box, aka Garry's Mod 2. However this time, they are handling the entire engine and its asset pipeline to be able to create remotely anything.
All the tools that come with Half-Life Alyx are included and even improved in s&box, with the addition to code the game and entities in C#, without the need for a C++ SDK as they used to be for Source 1.

I've made some small progress on the gameplay part and UI, but managed to recreate a lot of entities that are VTMB only. I'll be writing the development so far in a new thread somewhere this week.  :bite:

Offline SCO

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2021, 10:13:02 pm »
The problem with these things is that using the tools the source engine gives you is not enough to provide compatibility with existing maps, or if you're abandoning that - enough to provide all the gameplay elements of the game.
You'd basically have to re implement all the disciplines and dialog underlying engines among other things.
These engines are a bit more complex that just 'use the source engine'
I'm sure you know this, and probably are already thinking of how they work from the fileformats in the original engine though.


The disciplines engine is especially weird from what my adventure in modifying disciplines showed.  Has its own scripting language, has it's own scripting 'order', can do weird things like trigger two effects from a single discipline at once, has hardcoded functions bound to single effects, that you can notheless invoke on other disciplines (how you can invoke celerity and another discipline) etc.

And while maybe it's for the best if the discipline engine gets replaced by something saner, the dialog engine can't because the dialog trees with different responses per clan/sex are a fundamental part of the feeling of the engine and using 'if clan' is out of the question there.

A improvement that would be actually great is if the dialog engine template supported modification to add new clans.

ie: add new {}{} groups at the end of the line of a template, to refer to new clans names and {} groups in the actual dialog files so adding new clans is 'modular', at least in dialogs (it's probably more difficult than this but that would be a major part).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 10:26:57 pm by SCO »

Offline thewarsend

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2021, 11:52:27 pm »
Luckily Source 2 has tools to import models and materials, sounds and even maps. That way, the majority of the original contents will be needed. Being a mod to Source 2 is the best approach to go for many reasons.
Having it as a replacement to the version of Bloodlines we have would be a dream come true for most. We could do many things we couldn't even dream of with the old engine. We could finally have first person melee weapons. We could add new weapons such as M4, M60, dual pistols, rocket launcher, chainsaw, molotov cocktail and spice things up a little. Weapon selection of Bloodlines was always a bit lacking to be honest. We could have attachments like laser sight and silencer, which would have roleplaying value as well. We could have things such as aim down sights, which would be awesome.
(I was thinking we could pick up the first person melee animations directly from Left 4 Dead 2. They should be more than good enough.)

Also, Source 2 ability to tint props could be used to greater extent. For example, in Bloodlines, there are less then 10 cars and they all look alike since there is usually only a single texture for them. You could have more variations this way. Not everything has to look copied and pasted.


In fact I was thinking about editing and converting most of L4D2 cars for the use of Bloodlines. These will be based on L4D2 cars (since creating them from scratch would take ages), but will be edited to fit Bloodlines. More variation, more period accurate cars that fit the setting. No more 10 copies of a green 1964 Ford Thunderbird in the same garage like as if there is a convention in town. If I did that, would you use it?



I was thinking about the same too, where the hub map would be expanded in order to fit in the interior parts (example Asylum and the clinic) and keeping the layout as much as possible to the original layout.
I couldn't agree more. By my calculations exterior layout wouldn't even need to be changed by a lot. I am pretty sure many wouldn't even notice.
Although like I mentioned in my previous post, in some cases some alterations to the interior maps is a must also. Clinic map is a great example. Elevator says there should be seven floors, but third floor is the top floor if you take the stairs into account. It wouldn't be much of a problem if there was stairs that lead higher up but it wasn't accessible.
 Hotel map in Hollywood is another great example. Not only does it not match the exterior at all, but interior itself doesn't make any sense at all.
Another example would be Foxy Boxes, entire interior map needs to be rebuilt to fit the exterior (because it wouldn't fit anywhere anyway) and if possible place where player is embraced should be restored. View from that room was really cool with the exterior of Asylum visible and all.

By the way, having proper windows in Bloodlines and seeing the interior from exterior and vise versa is what makes it all worth it. In some maps interior and exterior windows don't align properly, but those can be sorted. In some windows, there are curtains, but those can be made semi transparent.

I'm curious if they started these maps with the proper exterior size or they resized it during development. As far as I know, only the Santa Monica map was revised. Would be great to get in contact with former devs to ask about these sort of things.
From what I can tell, I would say initially interior and exterior maps weren't separate at all. Since they weren't too familiar with the limitations of the Source engine and since the Hammer editor allows it, they built the entire hub maps as one gigantic map that included the interiors, more they added to it, more of a problem it became (entity limitation) and they had to split it into smaller chunks. At the end, they were in a rush, so they stopped caring about consistency and just kept adding whatever they needed into the interior maps without changing the exterior. Which is why Asylum for example mostly fits, because initial version where it was a part of the exterior map didn't have the stage. They added the stage after the split.

In all likelihood initial Clinic map was entirely different. Original version probably did fit the exterior, smaller with more floors.

Asking the former devs would be enlightening to say the least.

I don't think there ever be a full Source 2 SDK. At least not in the old fashioned way. The closest we get to it is with s&box, aka Garry's Mod 2. However this time, they are handling the entire engine and its asset pipeline to be able to create remotely anything.
All the tools that come with Half-Life Alyx are included and even improved in s&box, with the addition to code the game and entities in C#, without the need for a C++ SDK as they used to be for Source 1.
So it is pretty much possible to do anything you may need without having the full SDK the old fashioned way. I still want to believe they will release the full SDK at some point, but even if they don't, this is still good news, since it means Source 2 Bloodlines would still be possible. :)

I've made some small progress on the gameplay part and UI, but managed to recreate a lot of entities that are VTMB only. I'll be writing the development so far in a new thread somewhere this week.  :bite:

It looks amazing and it is not even final. This is really cool! :)
I am loving the semi transparent HUD by the way. And the third person, while not as polished as it could be, looks better than I could ever imagine. Great work! :)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 12:12:25 am by thewarsend »

Offline thewarsend

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2021, 10:41:17 pm »
I wanted to post a fallow up to my findings for a while now, but I couldn't find the energy to do so, since it doesn't appear like these will lead to anywhere. Mainly because of the fact, even if I did locate the issue, coding is way outside my skill set. But I should at least share what I found.

Without getting into too much detail, I found a value/parameter in one of the original BSP files that lead me to vvis source code. Since vvis (Valve Visible Information Set) handles visibility of materials including water, it could be one of the players (if not a major player) of our water visibility issue. I found the matching parameters in the 2006 version of Source SDK's vvis source code. I attached the related files below, in case anyone wishes to compile and test them.


One side note: While attached version seems to share more in common with Bloodlines version of the Source engine than the Beta version, some values it has might not be 100% compatible. Needs to be tested.

Psycho-A found the missing content parameters I previously mentioned in the BSP compiler, which proves my point about Bloodlines version of the Source engine shares more in common with retail HL2 engine than we previously thought (at least in comparison to HL2 Beta engine), but I have no idea if that lead to anything. (And I am too afraid to ask again)

So... Psycho-A if you see this, please reply.. its been five months since you commented on this :grin:

Offline atrblizzard

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2022, 11:39:57 pm »
Not really related to the topic, however I wasn't sure where to post this now, so here it goes! Also sorry for getting your hopes high thewarsend if you expected something else.

If you were following me on twitter, there were some neat stuff happening. Mostly playing around with a UE5 port of Bloodlines, because why not, have made some pretty good progress recreating a lot of the core parts. You can see it in the the video below.



As S&Box seemed promising a year ago, I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be the best fit. Yes, it would have been fantastic to use its Hammer editor and the built-in conversion for the contents, but I came to several issues. One being that you can't create standalone games with S&box and the built-in conversion got removed.
All being said, it's always up to the engine makers if it supports certain features and API to allow customizability. So the other route was going with Unreal Engine 5.

So far modding seems very promising. Contents wise that means anything from models to animations to new weapons and clans. The good news is, we got Python working, which enables further scripting. But for now, basic modding support is definitely doable.

There is still a lot to do, adding weapons, third person camera, disciplines, animations, AI, and so on. But for now, enjoy the video and the playlist with full raytracing on.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsPWKk0ivmfmaH4dDvsIsz-VIY4dUuETx

As a disclaimer, this may or may not go anywhere. I'm mostly trying various strengths of Unreal with recreating features from Bloodlines. I thought I'd just share some status about it because some things cannot die.

Offline Barabbah

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2022, 03:59:45 am »

Omg.
This.
Is.
Beautiful.


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Offline thewarsend

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2022, 09:48:37 pm »

Not really related to the topic, however I wasn't sure where to post this now, so here it goes! Also sorry for getting your hopes high thewarsend if you expected something else.

No worries, the moment I saw your name I knew whatever you posted had nothing to do with Bloodlines SDK.


If you were following me on twitter, there were some neat stuff happening.


I was following your twitter a year ago, when some neat stuff was actually happening. As soon as I realized you would abandon the Source 2 port, I stopped watching. I remember being upset with myself for thinking you might actually finish it. I should have known better.




As S&Box seemed promising a year ago, I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be the best fit. Yes, it would have been fantastic to use its Hammer editor and the built-in conversion for the contents, but I came to several issues. One being that you can't create standalone games with S&box and the built-in conversion got removed.
All being said, it's always up to the engine makers if it supports certain features and API to allow customizability. So the other route was going with Unreal Engine 5.

It didn't just seem promising, it was promising. You made significant progress with it. You will have issues no matter which engine you port it to, so I doubt that has anything to do with it. We both know you could have gotten past majority of those issues either way. I mean, if anyone can, it is you.

Also, you can technically create standalone games with S&box, considering how Source/2 engine works. Game exe runs whichever folder you point it to and there are ways to change that.

I am sure I don't even need to list what the main benefits of porting Bloodlines into Source 2 would be.

So I am just going to mention a few bullet points. Do to its similarities to Source 1, everyone here pretty much understands how Source 2 works, so patching and modding would be a lot easier. Which would mean with Source 2, you would have a community behind it. It may not sound significant but it really is. With any version of the unreal engine, that definitely wouldn't be the case. Not to mention Source 2 has VR support out of the box, which would be an amazing thing to have.


Mostly playing around with a UE5 port of Bloodlines, because why not, have made some pretty good progress recreating a lot of the core parts.


I would argue UE5 isn't the best fit either. It certainly doesn't look or feel right. Unreal engine is like ranch dressing, despite some who may claim otherwise, it doesn't go well with everything.


As a disclaimer, this may or may not go anywhere. I'm mostly trying various strengths of Unreal with recreating features from Bloodlines. I thought I'd just share some status about it because some things cannot die.

In all likelihood, it will not go anywhere. You will abandon it soon enough. As much as I like you and admire your skill, my faith in you finishing a project is zero at this point.

Don't get me wrong, I mean no disrespect. You just have a terrible track record. I just wish you stuck with the Source 2 port, for a hot minute there it looked like you might actually finish it.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 09:53:56 pm by thewarsend »

Offline Barabbah

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2022, 05:55:43 am »
Damn, you are rude.
Give him some credit. If he thinks the source engine is not worth it accept he decided to use Unreal instead.
And sorry for being rude myself  :tongue:
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Offline thewarsend

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Re: SDK Research
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2022, 04:45:32 pm »

Damn, you are rude.
Give him some credit. If he thinks the source engine is not worth it accept he decided to use Unreal instead.
And sorry for being rude myself  :tongue:


Was I little rude? Sure. But being rude and being wrong is not the same thing.

I know it wasn't the nicest thing to say, but even if he doesn't exactly remember me, I have known Atrblizzard since 2008. I have seen him go trough this cycle over and over again. He does this often enough, he tries to port Bloodlines to a new engine, he makes some progress, he gets bored with it, scraps everything and a short while later he tries to port it into a different engine.


At first it was the Bloodlines Revival Project, then it was the Bloodlines Resurgence, but then it was Project Vaulderie. He changed engines three times BEFORE cease and desist even hit. Source 2 and UE5 is only his latest tries.

He either never even intended to finish them, or he can't stay loyal to a single project long enough to finish it. Either way I can't get excided about anything he works on anymore because I am sure even if it looks nice it will never bear any fruit. So posting it here, in a topic he might have helped but didn't, is insulting at best.


Don't get me wrong, I still have a lot of respect for him and his skill, but I just had to say what I have in mind. Stick to a project and try to finish it for once.

 

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