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Offline Wesp5

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2022, 10:05:06 am »
I wish Wesp5 would use this method for the patch. But he would need to do a lot of cleanup for the old files which wasn't done by using this method, so I understand why he doesn't.
Not only that, it would clearly go into mod territory to add custom made skins or HD textures. I already got flak enough with my restorations so that I had to create the basic patch!

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By the way, I think I figured out a way to edit hub maps without worrying about sewer water. It could be done by separating the main map from the sewer map. You would basically have two map files for each hub, one for the street and one for the sewer.
That should work, but would mean a lot more loading screens, especially for the Nosferatu, so for now I see no reason to do it. For now I would suggest to go with Malkav's idea to use scripts to swap NPCs. This could be a mod on top of the UP like the X20 mod!
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 12:07:18 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline Malkav

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2022, 11:13:45 am »
I could live with separating the hub maps into "street" and "sewer" if I play a "normal" character, but as soon as I play a Nossie or someone who has frequent runins with the police and wants to hide I'd hate it.

Concerning modeltools and Entspy; if I'm not mistaken Entspy works similar to vpk-tools or VTMBedit. So you still have to edit the map even if you don't compile. That means a player can't install or update the texture mod without having to start a new campaign.
Okay using a script is kind of an ugly hack, but maintenence and integration into other mods is easier. And you can use a script to randomize the people in the hubs and clubs.
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Offline thewarsend

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2022, 12:16:33 pm »
Not only that, it would clearly go into the mod territory to add new custom made skins or HD textures. I already got flak enough with my restorations so that I had to create the basic patch!
No, we talked about this, you just don't seem to remember it. What I suggested applies for some of the texture restorations and fixes you made. We are talking about things that are already in the patch, not new content.

That should work, but would mean a lot more loading screens, especially for the Nosferatu, so for now I see no reason to do it.
True, but most people never even play Nosferatu. And even for those who do, load times are not much of a problem on the modern systems.
I find it strange you see no reason to do it at all, considering this would allow us to fix more bugs and improve a lot of issues.

For now I would suggest to go with Malkav's idea to use scripts to swap NPCs. This could be a mod on top of the UP like the X20 mod!
Like I said, you neither need to edit the map nor need to use a script to do this. Not everyone is script savy. Lets suggest the best method first.

I could live with separating the hub maps into "street" and "sewer" if I play a "normal" character, but as soon as I play a Nossie or someone who has frequent runins with the police and wants to hide I'd hate it.
Like I said, most people never even play as Nosferatu. This isn't the best workaround, but it is the only one we got at the moment. Considering the things this would allow us to do, some additional load times is a small sacrifice to make if you ask me.

Concerning modeltools and Entspy; if I'm not mistaken Entspy works similar to vpk-tools or VTMBedit. So you still have to edit the map even if you don't compile. That means a player can't install or update the texture mod without having to start a new campaign.Okay using a script is kind of an ugly hack, but maintenence and integration into other mods is easier. And you can use a script to randomize the people in the hubs and clubs.
Main problem I considered was recompling the maps, which would break water in the map. I thought Entspy didn't break saves or anything like that. Either way, it is easier to do, so I would go with what I suggested.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 02:58:43 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2022, 02:57:39 pm »
No, we talked about this, you just don't seem to remember it. What I suggested applies for some of the texture restorations and fixes you made. We are talking about things that are already in the patch, not new content.
I don't think there are many unused textures left to restore and OmriKoresh is certainly talking about new HD textures of his.

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I find it strange you see no reason to do it at all, considering this would allow us to fix more bugs and improve a lot of issues.
What bugs and issues would these be? The outside layout not fitting to the inside, which nobody seems to notice anyway ;)?

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Like I said, you neither need to edit the map nor need to use a script to do this.
Really? I thought I would need to basically edit all maps once to include this!

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Like I said, most people never even play as Nosferatu.
I'm pretty sure almost everybody plays a Nosferatu at least once.

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This isn't the best workaround, but it is the only one we got at the moment.
I would prefer Malkav's way and I'm pretty sure he would write the scripts for OmriKoresh :)! Maybe for unused textures in the plus patch too?

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I thought Entspy didn't break saves or anything like that.
As far as I know Malkav is right and Entspy just edits entities like VPKTools which breaks all the saves. Also it wouldn't help with bump maps...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 03:08:41 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline thewarsend

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2022, 07:00:31 pm »
Wesp5, dude, come on... at this point I am starting to think you are not even reading..


I don't think there are many unused textures left to restore and OmriKoresh is certainly talking about new HD textures of his.

I am talking about the stuff that's already in the patch. Like the black monitor texture. For example, I suggested just adding the second texture to the existing monitor file yet you wanted a new model file for it. That part of my comment had nothing to do with OmriKoresh's HD textures. Obviously.

What bugs and issues would these be? The outside layout not fitting to the inside, which nobody seems to notice anyway ;)?

Inside and outside layout not matching can be fixed using this, but that wasn't what I was talking about. If you seriously can't think of any issues related to hub maps, there is no point in talking about this. I believe you stopped thinking of them as issues to begin with.


Really? I thought I would need to basically edit all maps once to include this!

In a way, yes. Just not in Hammer, which is what I was talking about if you actually read my previous posts. This is to avoid breaking water in sewers.

Also, this was as a reply to other comments. You don't need to edit maps in hammer to do this.


I'm pretty sure almost everybody plays a Nosferatu at least once.

And that's relevant how?

I would prefer Malkav's way and I'm pretty sure he would write the scripts for OmriKoresh :)! Maybe for unused textures in the plus patch too?

You do you. I would still say that isn't the proper way to do it in this case.


As far as I know Malkav is right and Entspy just edits entities like VPKTools which breaks all the saves. Also it wouldn't help with bump maps...

You do realize NPC's are dynamic objects and you do not need to recompile the map to add bumpmaps to them. Same goes for every dynamic object.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2022, 07:45:30 pm »
Wesp5, dude, come on... at this point I am starting to think you are not even reading..
No, it's probably more the case that I read so much that I keep forgetting stuff ;).
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I am talking about the stuff that's already in the patch. Like the black monitor texture.
Ah, but I think this whole thread is about other things, especially dynamic NPCs.

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I believe you stopped thinking of them as issues to begin with.
Could well be, because I am doing this too long. So please remind me of these!

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Just not in Hammer, which is what I was talking about if you actually read my previous posts.
Okay, I got it. Still editing a map in any other way will still break all the saves which is bad.

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And that's relevant how?
You claimed that nobody would be concerned with extra loading times for the sewers. Malkav and I think everybody will be pissed off when they play a Nosferatu and playing that clan is extra hazzle already in the first place :)!

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I would still say that isn't the proper way to do it in this case.
I don't even know what Malkav has in mind. Malkav, can you elaborate? Is this only for hub NPCs?
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You do realize NPC's are dynamic objects and you do not need to recompile the map to add bumpmaps to them. Same goes for every dynamic object.
Good, so a lot of the stuff that OmriKoresh is doing could be added without recompiling any maps.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 07:51:38 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline thewarsend

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2022, 02:52:18 pm »
Ah, but I think this whole thread is about other things, especially dynamic NPCs.


It is, I suggested a method of doing that and I mentioned you should also use that same method for the things in the patch.

Could well be, because I am doing this too long. So please remind me of these!

I am not sure where to even start. From badly applied textures to weird geometry to buildings without doors, there are many issues that can only be solved by editing the map.


If I got into it deeper, I could include other problems such as interiors and exteriors noticeably not matching. People may not notice interior being slightly bigger than the exterior, but they usually notice when exterior is only 4 floors and interior is 6 or more floors. Being able to ignore and forgive it is not same as never even noticing it.


As for bugs, I can remember a lot of texture related bugs that needs to be corrected and I do remember a lot of times where I went "to fix that we would need to recompile the hub maps but we can't do that so it cannot be fixed" but I cannot give you a list right now. It is not something I keep.

Okay, I got it. Still editing a map in any other way will still break all the saves which is bad.


You should know better than anyone that it is unavoidable sometimes. Especially when it comes to mods like these.

You claimed that nobody would be concerned with extra loading times for the sewers. Malkav and I think everybody will be pissed off when they play a Nosferatu and playing that clan is extra hazzle already in the first place :)!


I claimed people rarely play as Nosferatu, which is objectively true. Also, either way it is a small sacrifice to make considering it is the only option to do some of the things we are unable to do at the moment. There are seven clans in the game, this would benefit six of them. People rarely choose the ugly monster as their player character but even if you said all clans were being played equally, only 10% to 15% of the players would be playing as Nosferatu. That would mean this method would still benefit 85% to 90% of the people who are playing the game. I for one only played as the Nosferatu once, just to be able to say that I did. It is a unique experience to be sure, just not what I think of when I think about Bloodlines. I am willing to bet this applies to most people.


I also said people with modern systems probably wouldn't even notice the difference, which is also true.

Good, so a lot of the stuff that OmriKoresh is doing could be added without recompiling any maps.


I gave that as an option, he may still need to recompile for the bumpmaps on the walls and floors. In all likelihood it is unavoidable. That's why I suggested separating the sewers and the streets. Since it is the only method that could possibly work, other than somehow fixing the SDK, which will not be happening any time soon.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2022, 10:01:33 pm »
From badly applied textures to weird geometry to buildings without doors, there are many issues that can only be solved by editing the map.
I added many doors to the Hollywood hub and could do this without recompiling on the others, but nobody ever noticed!

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If I got into it deeper, I could include other problems such as interiors and exteriors noticeably not matching.
That would basically be like the remaster that Atrblizzard is working on for years and you know how this always ends up.

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As for bugs, I can remember a lot of texture related bugs that needs to be corrected...
I would guess that texture bugs of some kind are visible in all of the maps, so we would need to recompile most of them!

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You should know better than anyone that it is unavoidable sometimes. Especially when it comes to mods like these.
Yes. But at them moment I'm kind of finished with the vampire side of the patch and I'm only working on the hunter part.

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I claimed people rarely play as Nosferatu, which is objectively true.
I guess you are right, but we really don't know or are there statistics?

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I gave that as an option, he may still need to recompile for the bumpmaps on the walls and floors.
I would like to see what he is actually doing before planning changes.

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That's why I suggested separating the sewers and the streets.
You are aware that this would blow up the patch size dramatically, as all  the old hub levels need to stay because we can't remove the geometry above the sewers and we would then have to duplicate the rest of the hubs including the skyboxes. Right now for me this is too much effort for too little gain, going strongly into the direction of a remaster instead of just a patch!
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 10:09:49 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline thewarsend

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2022, 11:21:15 pm »
I added many doors to the Hollywood hub and could do this without recompiling on the others, but nobody ever noticed!

Even if no one noticed it, you should realize it is easier to notice things when they are wrong. It is much more difficult to notice them they are as they should be.


Also, just because no one ever commented on it, it doesn't mean no one noticed. I for one noticed it and didn't say anything, mainly because what is there to say?


Same goes for many of the other things in the patch. I doubt people comment about most changes, but just because people don't comment on them it doesn't mean nobody ever noticed them.



That would basically be like the remaster that Atrblizzard is working on for years and you know how this always ends up.


Well, no. That would be nothing like remaster projects Atrblizzard is worked on over the years. He is trying to port the game into a different engine, which is a totally different thing.


It would be much easier and faster to do it by using the same engine and just decompiling, editing and recompiling those maps. I know because I already tried it. Results were unusable because of the broken sewer water but if we separated the sewer and street maps this could be easily done.

I would guess that texture bugs of some kind are visible in all of the maps, so we would need to recompile most of them!


Not all of them, fixing the worst offenders (most noticeable ones) should be enough.

Yes. But at them moment I'm kind of finished with the vampire side of the patch and I'm only working on the hunter part.


Sure, but I am willing to bet if you could fix bugs you couldn't fix before you would be willing to reconsider that. This idea would allow us to do that. Not to mention it would benefit the hunter part as well.

I guess you are right, but we really don't know or are there statistics?

There are ways to confirm this, but the answer is already obvious. It is just simple math and logic.

I would like to see what he is actually doing before planning changes.


I guess we will see after he tries it, but as someone who tried this before, I know it is the only thing he can try to fix the bumpmap related issues he has.

You are aware that this would blow up the patch size dramatically, as all  the old hub levels need to stay because we can't remove the geometry above the sewers and we would then have to duplicate the rest of the hubs including the skyboxes. Right now for me this is too much effort for too little gain, going strongly into the direction of a remaster instead of just a patch!

I don't understand your logic. Even if you did no additional work to slim it down (which you could) maximum patch size increase would be less than 50MB. I would hardly call that blowing up. Also, considering the things we can do with it, saying there is little to be gained doesn't sound right to me. Also, like I said, remaster is a totally different thing. Map fixes and HD textures doesn't suddenly turn it into a remaster. Not to mention this and HD textures doesn't need to be included in it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 11:25:47 pm by thewarsend »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2022, 09:51:50 am »
Also, just because no one ever commented on it, it doesn't mean no one noticed. I for one noticed it and didn't say anything, mainly because what is there to say?
Okay, so at least that work wasn't in vain ;)! I might take a look at the other hubs to see if a similar thing can be done there.

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He is trying to port the game into a different engine, which is a totally different thing.
This is what he is doing right now, but he already had a full working SM hub on the Alien Swarm engine, as far as I remember.

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It would be much easier and faster to do it by using the same engine and just decompiling, editing and recompiling those maps.
I completely agree. I don't know why he always does it. Somebody posted a HL2 in Unreal 5 video and the faces were horrible!

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Results were unusable because of the broken sewer water but if we separated the sewer and street maps this could be easily done.
So why don't you do this and give me the results? If they are looking good enough and don't break anything, I could use them.

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Not all of them, fixing the worst offenders (most noticeable ones) should be enough.
My problem right now is that I don't remember any, not even on the hubs.

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Sure, but I am willing to bet if you could fix bugs you couldn't fix before you would be willing to reconsider that.
I'm kind of burned out at the moment, why don't you start with this then?

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I guess we will see after he tries it, but as someone who tried this before, I know it is the only thing he can try to fix the bumpmap related issues he has.
Getting bump maps on textures that need it would be an argument for divided hubs, I don't care about HD textures though.

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Even if you did no additional work to slim it down (which you could) maximum patch size increase would be less than 50MB.
That is just extrapolating from the existing map sizes which end up much larger after recompiling. I would guess +10% size!

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Also, like I said, remaster is a totally different thing.
I played the Ghostbusters remaster and it seems to be exactly that. What you are thinking of is a remake, but borders blur...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 09:58:08 am by Wesp5 »

Offline Malkav

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2022, 03:01:35 pm »
I don't even know what Malkav has in mind. Malkav, can you elaborate? Is this only for hub NPCs?
What I have in mind could possibly work on every map, but I'd only use it on the hubs and maybe in the clubs.
The exact scripting depends on several conditions. Like: are the model/skin changes permanent or do I have to repeat them on every mapload? Do i want my setting to be permanent during a playthrough or do I want to make changes on every map visit?

Basically what I would do is:
-use FindClass() to search for all npcs of the appropriate classes
-check each of these npcs if they are one of the models I want to diversify (npc.GetModelName() )
-then use FadeToSkin(#) or SetModel(xxx) to assign a different skin or (if necessary) model. This can be randomized or according to some logic.

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Offline thewarsend

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2022, 12:04:00 am »
Okay, so at least that work wasn't in vain ;)! I might take a look at the other hubs to see if a similar thing can be done there.


Of course it wasn't. :)

This is what he is doing right now, but he already had a full working SM hub on the Alien Swarm engine, as far as I remember.


He changed engines so many times it is just insane. Alien Swarm engine, despite it still being a version of source engine, counts as a different engine in this case. Mainly because it is too different, nothing in Bloodlines is compatiple.

I completely agree. I don't know why he always does it. Somebody posted a HL2 in Unreal 5 video and the faces were horrible!


Source 2 engine was the best option for this. It would still be a lot of work, but the end result would look just right, including the faces.

So why don't you do this and give me the results? If they are looking good enough and don't break anything, I could use them.


I have a few ideas but I might need your help at some point. We could merge some of the maps while we are at it. I will PM you when I am done.


I'm kind of burned out at the moment, why don't you start with this then?


I will see what I can do.

Getting bump maps on textures that need it would be an argument for divided hubs, I don't care about HD textures though.


HD textures would be nice, but I agree bumpmaps are sorely needed in some places. Makes me wonder why they didn't include them in the first place.

That is just extrapolating from the existing map sizes which end up much larger after recompiling. I would guess +10% size!

Even if the files doubled in size, it would still be less than 100MB's. Which wouldn't happen but even if it did, it is still nothing.

I played the Ghostbusters remaster and it seems to be exactly that. What you are thinking of is a remake, but borders blur...


No I am not thinking of remake. It is only a remake if they do everything from scratch.


Good example of a remaster would be Halo. Good example of a remake would be Mafia.


Just because they call it a "remaster" it isn't always true. Not to mention Ghostbuster devs did more than just to update textures, but still it was very shoddy.


What I have in mind could possibly work on every map, but I'd only use it on the hubs and maybe in the clubs.
The exact scripting depends on several conditions. Like: are the model/skin changes permanent or do I have to repeat them on every mapload? Do i want my setting to be permanent during a playthrough or do I want to make changes on every map visit?

Basically what I would do is:
-use FindClass() to search for all npcs of the appropriate classes
-check each of these npcs if they are one of the models I want to diversify (npc.GetModelName() )
-then use FadeToSkin(#) or SetModel(xxx) to assign a different skin or (if necessary) model. This can be randomized or according to some logic.


The way you put it, I don't hate that idea. Makes me wonder what else such scripts could be used for.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2022, 12:03:40 pm »
Source 2 engine was the best option for this. It would still be a lot of work, but the end result would look just right, including the faces.
I agree. Also he probably could have made it a mod by using original assets from an existing installation and thus avoid any IP issues.

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We could merge some of the maps while we are at it.
Yeah, that's why I call it a remaster :). Because "while we are at it", we would need to edit a lot more! For example the Skyline Appartment map has no windows inside which is completely unrealistic, so if we want to make that fit to the outside we would need to edit the interior too. The same is true for the SM clinic and probably many other maps...

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HD textures would be nice, but I agree bumpmaps are sorely needed in some places.
As far as I know the already existing HD mods cause crashing because the engine can't handle the file sizes. Where are bumpmaps needed?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 12:08:02 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline thewarsend

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2022, 11:58:19 pm »
I agree. Also he probably could have made it a mod by using original assets from an existing installation and thus avoid any IP issues.

That's what I have been saying, I couldn't agree more. With Source 2, if he made some sort of installer that overrides files he could pass it as a patch mod. He can't do that with any version of UE.

Yeah, that's why I call it a remaster :). Because "while we are at it", we would need to edit a lot more! For example the Skyline Appartment map has no windows inside which is completely unrealistic, so if we want to make that fit to the outside we would need to edit the interior too. The same is true for the SM clinic and probably many other maps...

That's why I said "some" maps. While some maps fit like a glove and would be relatively easy to merge, not every interior map perfectly fit the exterior.


Even if we bothered editing every map, I would argue that would still count as a map fix mod instead of anything else, it could hardly be called a remaster. In my opinion for it to be a remaster more fundamental changes would be needed. Engine code fixes, better textures and lighting, better shadows, better models etc.


By your definition every little thing could turn it into a remaster. Even though it clearly is not, you could call Plus Patch a remaster for example, because it restores cut content and some remasters do that.

As far as I know the already existing HD mods cause crashing because the engine can't handle the file sizes.


None of the HD texture mods I created caused any crashes so far, which ones do that?


File sizes should be kept reasonable considering the age of the game, that's a given. Still given that it is a version of the Source engine I would say it handles HD models and textures fairly well.


Where are bumpmaps needed?


I obviously don't have a list to give you. Take a walk trough the streets, generally any surface that appears too flat when it clearly shouldn't be could use a bumpmap. Examples would be brick walls, bathroom tiles, etc. (basically any surface that shouldn't be totally flat)


Bumpmaps already exist in Bloodlines as you know, it looks good wherever it exists, but on most surfaces it is missing.

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Re: HD textures - Overhaul project
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2022, 08:58:33 am »
That's why I said "some" maps. While some maps fit like a glove and would be relatively easy to merge, not every interior map perfectly fit the exterior.
I just took a walk through SM and we basically would need to change all maps to make it realistic! Not only because buildings don't fit, but also most have no access to higher floors. Like in Mercurio's building we would need a staircase door or an elevator and this would probably be true everywhere! Even in SM most of the buildings have no doors, except for the few you can enter, which might even have been intentional.

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In my opinion for it to be a remaster more fundamental changes would be needed.
I don't know what the definition of a remaster is. I only ever player the Ghostbusters versions and could hardly see a difference! If we would try to make the maps realistic, this would certainly mean more changes than in this game. If we would add bump maps to textures that didn't have one before it would look better as well, although the different lighting the SDK Hammer creates might also easily break the atmosphere!

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Even though it clearly is not, you could call Plus Patch a remaster for example, because it restores cut content and some remasters do that.
I would call the Plus Patch a Restoration Project nowadays, like with the KOTOR1/2 games. I don't know if normal remasters add unused content...

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None of the HD texture mods I created caused any crashes so far, which ones do that?
I think it is the following mod and it seems that a solution to the crashes has just been posted: https://www.moddb.com/mods/vtmb-ai-hd-textures

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Bumpmaps already exist in Bloodlines as you know, it looks good wherever it exists, but on most surfaces it is missing.
Psycho-A added a lot of stuff to textures using the vmt files. Is this not possible with bump maps? Why would we need to recompile maps for this?
Also why is the original poster so silent? Has he already given up, like some of the others that appeared before and tried to improve the textures?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 09:06:58 am by Wesp5 »

 

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