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Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines => Bloodlines Modding => Topic started by: [archive] gwhanos on June 28, 2006, 02:03:00 AM

Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] gwhanos on June 28, 2006, 02:03:00 AM
                I know that the rockheads are not really suited for much playing as a PC, but here is what I propose:
 
 Have them have 0 Appearance (like the Nosferatu), really low dexterity, skills like lockpicking or computer work need double to increase (or stay normal, because there will be times in the game where you WILL need to use those skills) no stealth, ranged, or social skills.
 
 The trade-off is that you are teh combat god. No one can match you in melee, and with Fortitude and Potence, you will deliver some serious pain, on top of your supernaturally stronger than most Kindred physical abilities with the exception of dexterity. Their third discipline would probably be Auspex, because they detect all who enter their chambers.
 
  Their trademark discipline, Visceratika would be implemented by the skin of the character ( I invision a stone textured character with moderate detailed features, or just a shortened model of the gargoyle already in game) and their high Stamina stat.
 
 
 
 
                       

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Slaydin on June 29, 2006, 06:16:00 AM
                In Reply To #1
 
 It sound pretty good...but what about feeding? And the fact that they need a Tremere master? And the size...whew. There is no such thing as a "little" Gargoyle. Too big for sewers, the game doesn't allow thier flight, and just showing himself would be a serious Masquerade violation. Only one would be needed for the Tremere to be called to correct their "mistake". Not to mention that Gargoyles aren't Kindred.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] cosmicnut on June 30, 2006, 06:36:00 AM
                Cool idea but I think it'll get a stoney reception......
 
 (OMG! I can't believe I actually typed that!)
 
                       

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Slaydin on June 30, 2006, 06:58:00 AM
                In Reply To #3
 
 Nobody likes a cold blockhead.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] gwhanos on July 01, 2006, 03:29:00 AM
                They can take that up the character, assuming they can survive shattered ribs, broken jaw, and an unbelievably harsh jab or kick to the nether regions and whatever else the Gargoyle would have done to them.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Slaydin on July 01, 2006, 06:43:00 AM
                In Reply To #5
 
 Umm... I don't think you know the power of the Tremere, both in the PnP sense and in the PC game world. The easiest way to see it is to play Redemption. There you can see the awsome power of the Tremere not found in Bloodlines (probably for game balance) and how they make, break, and control Gargoyles.
 
 The Tremere created the Gargoyles in their wars centuries ago, first against the Tzimesce, then the other clans after Tremere himself diablerized Saulot. The Gargoyles were used as shock troopers to bust the lines of Kindred who basically put a bloodhunt out on the entire clan of upstarts. Some humans were used in the creation of the Gargoyles, but the primary source of "bodies" to make them were of the Gangrel and Nosferatu clans. They still hold a deep-seated resentment towards the Tremere because of this. Why do you think Bertram says <yellow>Goddamned Tremere! Blood thieving mage assholes!</yellow> to your face when you play a Tremere PC? After the Tremere joined up with the Camarilla, they had little use for them anymore and thus nearly ceased the creation of thier guards. Few are created in the modern nights, but every last Gargoyle is firmly under the thumb of the Tremere. Why do you think the Gargoyle in Hollywood can't face his old master?
 
 The only ones who would get "shattered ribs, broken jaw, and an unbelievably harsh jab or kick to the nether regions" would be the other clans who attempt to use brute force instead of the Thaumaturgy that made the Gargoyles. A Tremere with knowledge on thier creation can make a Gargoyle suffer.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] gwhanos on July 01, 2006, 05:49:00 PM
                If that be the case, then here is an idea- Remember how LaCroix could just dominate you into doing things for him? Strauss would employ a similar method to control the rockheaded player, incase he or she got too snarky with him. The game would then take a different stance- you would take orders from your master, whom works for the Prince, in a sense, you would be working for your boss' boss, which is what you would be doing anyway, if the game gave out quests not by LaCroix, but by Primogen.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Offkorn on August 18, 2006, 12:53:00 PM
               
Skyra to Hollow posted:
I see no reason for limiting their intellectual abilities; after all an intelligent gargoyle played a big part of the Wormwood scenario in Gehenna.  Most PC gargoyles are "free," that is, they do not serve the Tremere.  Most of them are also embraced by other gargoyles, not "created" by a Tremere.

 
 If you are going by P&P cannon, then they are indeed 'stupider' then other vampires, as the change completely destroys their memory. They have the same capacity for knowledge, but most of thier privious knowledge is lost.
 
 Also; nothing depicted in the 'Gehenna' suppliment can be considered cannon, as it is rife with inconsistancies.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] {506}Brolligod on December 22, 2006, 09:16:00 AM
                In Reply To #6
 
 Oh please, hardly anyone who  plays this sad excuse for a VTM game knows the power of ANYTHING.
 
 Fucking Tremere do worse than most, considering they can simply make you explode into flames, or crush your skull with Movement Of The Mind.
 
 Remember folks, its rolled against Level+3 diff, THEIR Willpower, not the victims. That means  pain for ANYONE.
 
 Presence gives combat penalties? Auspex just gives wits and Perception?
 
 This game is a fucking joke to any VTM player. I only play it to show my friends how the WOD is portrayed, to fuel their  imaginations when ST-ing.
 
 ...Protean... Lawl...  What a joke.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Slaydin on July 03, 2006, 05:15:00 AM
                In Reply To #7
 
 That would be pretty cool actually. A seperate story for the Gargoyle is an excellent idea. But... transportation. The Masquerade violations would make any prince cringe and rock his head. Unless a large truck were to be used. At that point, however, it would all be about smash and crash, probably against the Sabbat or Kuei-jin and thats it. Still, that would be fun too. Ooo... and destructable walls... Mabey I'm dreaming a little too much. Large changes would have to be made to Bloodlines for any of this to happen. Clan Gargoyle can currently be made, but it would be bad for role-play in the WoD sense.                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Skyra_to_Hollow on July 13, 2006, 04:42:00 PM
                Gargoyles can make a better PC than a lot of people think.  For Redemption I added them to the WoDMod in version 1.02, including with their custom discipline of Visceratika.  Not finished the Flight discipline, though.  A good source of inspiration is probably the Guide to the Camarilla, if you have access to it.  The Gargoyles do indeed suffer from a weakness to uses of Dominate.  That is, people who try to Dominate them get the difficulty lowered by 2 (on the d10 system, anyway).
 
 And yes, they have an appearance of 0, which can never be raised.  I see no reason for limiting their intellectual abilities; after all an intelligent gargoyle played a big part of the Wormwood scenario in Gehenna.  Most PC gargoyles are "free," that is, they do not serve the Tremere.  Most of them are also embraced by other gargoyles, not "created" by a Tremere.  For havens they used to live in Cathedrals, but that is kinda cliche, and made them an easy target for Tremere who discreetly exterminate the evidence of their "failed experiment."  Some clever gargoyles gather a Herd for easier feeding.  It'd be fairly easy for them to convince some religious nuts that they are angels or demons.  But yeah, hanging out at the Rack is hardly an option when it comes to feeding.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] gwhanos on August 18, 2006, 01:16:00 AM
                I resurrect thy post from thy grave. Are there any willing modders to make this mod?                        

 

                                                  
Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] arathalion_5 on December 22, 2006, 10:49:00 AM
                In Reply To #12
 
 as to your saying "ANYONE" i would like to point out 2 things:
 1 fortitude &
 2 you can only roll temporary willpower, which thaumaturge's tends to like spending.
 
 now, i suggest you stop acting so high and mighty, a good few of us here know our stuf and im now giving you one of the nicer responses you are going to get.
 
 yes, they didnt get these things quite so close to the pnp game in bloodlines, but they did so because you cant.
 
 now i suggest that you stop being so rude. if you dont like the game i would also suggest that you avoid dont read any topics that have to do with it, and if you are going to post, be nice.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] MoonMad:P on December 25, 2006, 07:59:00 AM
                In Reply To #1
 Man, I must be very bored at the moment.
 
 http://storeandserve.com/download/657478/Gargoyle.exe.html  - extract into your vampire directory.
 
 This is half-arsed by the way (didn't change much from the chocula clan files). I've given them 0 Appearance max and +10 to soak (not that it's needed - I over did it with the starting stats plus I didn't edit very much of the 'about the clan' stuff in the wizard etc so a lot of text info on them won't be any different from the Chocula clan). I've also made it so the character transforms like the Nosferatu, but not into a Nossie. They're fairly unplayable because of the models I used (will only move forward if the shift button is held - changing the models should fix it I think) and I don't plan on going any further with it - I did it out of boredom (turns out I got even more bored and now want to play the Monkey Island games so I guess insanity is included). Fix it up if you like - it shouldn't be hard.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Offkorn on December 25, 2006, 08:12:00 AM
               
arathalion posted:
yes, they didnt get these things quite so close to the pnp game in bloodlines, but they did so because you cant.

 
 No. They didn't get these things close because they couldn't, or didn't want to attempt to make it fit with 'Game Balance'. Nevermind that the game has no balance to begin with and can be completed in easily under 8 hours.
 
 The only reason we can't do it is because the game is hardcoded. The ability to make the disciplines work correctly is all there in the engine, we simply can't implement it due to the 'lock'. They would've had no such problem though, unless they were even more incompetent then I already have reason to believe.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] arathalion_5 on December 25, 2006, 08:49:00 AM
                In Reply To #15
 no, they could not have gotten the more social aspects or subtler things into the game.
 
 for instance, how would you do dementation, presence... especially summon and vicissitude correctly? there are other things ass well.
 
 and yes, i know why allot of it was not fixed.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Offkorn on December 25, 2006, 10:07:00 AM
                In Reply To #16
 
 They had no need to do all of Vicissitude's effects, since you couldn't play as a Tzimisce, they also had no need to code in every Discipline in the game. Could that be done? Certainly, but that would be a job for the Modders. See Redemption for a good example of Devs only making what was needed while the community made what was left out.
 
 I'm not complaining about the lack of Disciplines, I'm complaining about the way they utterly butchered the standard Disciplines. How you can defend their slip-shot/incompetent handling of the Disciplines as 'limitations of the system' I have no idea. The system is far from limited, their implementation/understanding of that system is what was flawed.
 
 How would the correct versions be implemented you ask? Take a look at the WoD Mod for Redemption, that's how they'd be implemented.
 
 ---------------------------
 
 Rather then keep as true to the Disciplines as possible, Troika decided to make them all balanced and equal. They didn't even attempt to implement the Disciplines correctly, as they wanted every build to be equally viable. While that's a great idea for a game with no RP aspects or history behind it, it's a mortal sin for an RPG with a deep and detailed past. To compound this, they used an engine they didn't make, making it so there was no possibility of salvation by the Modding community.
 
 Plain and Simple: They fucked up. Thankfully, they won't get to repeat this tragedy.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] arathalion_5 on December 25, 2006, 10:23:00 AM
                In Reply To #17
 im not defending them, im defending my own statement, and i only made it cause that other guy was pissing me off.
 
 i understand what your complaining about, and indeed i would join you.
 
 as for the WoD mod, i haven't tried it, but i tried WtD, and i wasnt sure how much better it could get... but i couldnt find a working download link dor WoD mod.
 
 and yes, but they should code in the disciplines that npcs use, apposed to scripting them.
 
 the only thing i am saying is the first line in the above post
 "they could not have gotten the more social aspects or subtler things into the game."
 which basically hinges on the ai.
 
 though i think i might go and try to download WoD mod again at somepoint.
 
 
 
 "Rather then keep as true to the Disciplines as possible, Troika decided to make them all balanced and equal. They didn't even attempt to implement the Disciplines correctly, as they wanted every build to be equally viable."
 and can you stop telling me what i already know please                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Offkorn on December 25, 2006, 11:42:00 AM
               
arathalion posted:
im not defending them, im defending my own statement, and i only made it cause that other guy was pissing me off.

 
 You're not? What about your post right before this one?
 
 

"no, they could not have gotten the more social aspects or subtler things into the game.
 
 for instance, how would you do dementation, presence... especially summon and vicissitude correctly?"

 
 That is a defense of Troika's incompetance. They could have, they chose not to.
 
 

the only thing i am saying is the first line in the above post
 "they could not have gotten the more social aspects or subtler things into the game."
 which basically hinges on the ai.

 
 They did get the subtler aspects into the game, they made dialogue checks. That was a perfectly acceptable solution. That's not the issue however, the issue is the complete butchering of the Disciplines main/basic effects (combat and non-combat alike).
 
 

"Rather then keep as true to the Disciplines as possible, Troika decided to make them all balanced and equal. They didn't even attempt to implement the Disciplines correctly, as they wanted every build to be equally viable."
 and can you stop telling me what i already know please

 
 I'd love to stop telling you things you already know, as soon as you can show you actually know them. Defending Troika, for whatever your reasoning, indicates that either: A) You don't know, or B) You're being purposely hypocritical in order to win an argument with 'someone who was pissing you off'.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] arathalion_5 on December 25, 2006, 11:15:00 PM
                In Reply To #19
 
 defending my self
 
 "That's not the issue however, the issue is the complete butchering of the Disciplines main/basic effects (combat and non-combat alike)." well then i agree with you
 
 closer to b... but that "person that was pissing me off" wasnt you... just to clarify, they guy with 6 or 7 posts, all of which i read and where rather rude and unsubtle...
 
 im sorry i can view this in a detached manner because i dont actually care that much. and dont think it is a big deal. im sorry that i can see why they wanted to "balance" it, i dont agree with them, but i can see why they did it.
 
 please stop taking it personally, i havent attacked you.
                       

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Offkorn on December 26, 2006, 06:29:00 PM
               
arathalion posted:
defending my self

 
 "They" != "I".
 
 

closer to b... but that "person that was pissing me off" wasnt you... just to clarify, they guy with 6 or 7 posts, all of which i read and where rather rude and unsubtle...

 
 I never said it was me...I know precisely who you were talking about, and you were apparently making hypocritical statements simply because you didn't like his attitude. Nevermind that his attitude was perfectly correct.
 
 

im sorry i can view this in a detached manner because i dont actually care that much. and dont think it is a big deal. im sorry that i can see why they wanted to "balance" it, i dont agree with them, but i can see why they did it.

 
 I have no idea what you're talking about here. If you were detached, you wouldn't have defended Troika simply because someone said no one in this thread knows what they were talking about regarding the WoD.
 
 If you want to be sorry about something, you should be sorry about defending Troika solely to chastise someone whose attitude you didn't like.
 
 

please stop taking it personally, i havent attacked you.

 
 I never said you attacked me, nor did I ever imply that I was 'taking things personally'. To take things personally I would have to have been involved, which I wasn't.
 
 You involved yourself by responding to another member in a fashion that defended Troika. I'm simply exposing your comments for the purposeful hypocrisy they are.                        

 

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Title: Re: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] arathalion_5 on December 26, 2006, 09:09:00 PM
                In Reply To #21
 sorry, it sounded like you where taking it personaly... or perhaps that is the wrong term for the statement.
 
 i just had a problem with the guys tone. all 6/7 of his posts where like that and i might have been in a bad mood.                        

 

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Title: Clan Gargoyles
Post by: [archive] Luella63421844 on December 31, 2006, 11:54:00 AM
                In Reply To #22
 
 Just in terms of sheer lore, a 'clan' of Gargoyles looks a bit difficult to justify. How do they maintain masquerade points? Or humanity? Do they spend most of their existence pretending to be ugly statues hanging off the sides of ugly buildings, creaking into life when nobody's looking to do a fine bit of innocent rampaging before anyone notices?
 
 Other than the silliness of it, it sounds like a fun mod. You'd want a lot af angry cops around to cope with an increasingly tough monster stomping around the streets. Try not to step on the daisies.  happy
                       

 

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