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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...  (Read 11326 times)

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2017, 07:17:10 AM »
ah shit:



looks like I do have to eliminate more brushes anyway...
crap too because I really put a lot of fine detail in this sign, might be a lot of brushes..hmm

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2017, 07:58:50 AM »
cool, deleted more brushes and the map loads fine again.

almost nothing was deleted that you can see in-game, so the level looks virtually identical.

(I reduced the number of girders under the overpass where the homeless people are to half, doesn't need to be so many)

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2017, 01:34:16 PM »
Oook, sometimes when going IN to the Last Round, the game crashes too. It's always before the map transitions. Like just as you press the Use key on the door, it crashes...

I haven't tested other map transitions so I dunno what's going on.

I'll test and test and test...no problems. Just when I think it's all OK, I'll be doing something, change maps and...crash.. happens in both dev mode, and normal play mode...

What the...

It could be a new addition I made to the Last Round, it switches models a lot, but like I said, I can stand there watching it switch models for 5 mins, leave and it's fine. Other times I stand there for 30 secs and leave and it crashes...so maybe this isn't it. I'm not sure. I wish I could make a prop model with like 50 skins, then I wouldn't need to switch models. The most I've seen anything have so far is 2 and they aren't the sort of prop I need.

Lame problem, like I said I'll just have to urge people to save often.

Oh wait!  I have an idea. I'll set up the door/exit triggers to stop my timers from firing before the level transition. Maybe it's trying to SetModel when the level is changing... that might do it. These timers fire between 0.1 and 0.2 seconds each, pretty fast, so it's easy to think it might be trying to do something bad when the level is about to change. Worth a shot
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 01:43:30 PM by Icicle »

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2017, 04:58:05 PM »
Yeah that was it. Disabling timers means no sudden model changes when the door is opening. Good to know, so it doesn't happen anymore, cuz I know I'll be using this style of prop swapping in the future for other things

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2017, 08:40:20 PM »
This is pretty tricky, actually. I think I can fix it though. There's still one minor glitch causing some crashes, this time not when you are just exiting a level, but instead just as you are loading into one (the LA hub in this case). However it was dev mode that crashed, which is notorious for screw-ups and crashes; it was not normal game play, so I'm gonna go in and out of Last Round many times in quick succession just like a player might, see if that crashes.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 08:54:17 PM by Icicle »

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2017, 09:10:20 PM »
Damn, there's still a rare crash.......don't know if it's what I added or just the game being old...I'm leaning towards it being my stuff.

I went in and out of the Last Round eight times, ninth time as I'm exiting...crash...whaaat?

I wonder if there's a limit to the number of models that can be dynamically switched into the level before this crash happens?

If that's the case, I can put these models somewhere out of reach of the player, so they're loaded into the level so the game isn't loading them on the fly as they're requested. I bet that might solve it...

If it doesn't, I have nooo idea.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 09:13:26 PM by Icicle »

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2017, 09:55:20 PM »
Oook, I have to get to the bottom of this.

For this test, I just tried to enter the Last Round the second time in a row, and it crashed.

I'm going to disable all scripts relating to my new content with a return line at the start, and see if it keeps crashing.

That way I'll know if it's my stuff (I think it's gotta be, but this is the only way to be sure).

Sheesh. I just can't let crashing slide, so I'm fixated on this problem until it's solved

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2017, 10:03:31 PM »
Oh, ok, no wonder my efforts and changing my scripts and timers have failed...
It isn't that.

I disabled it all completely and it's still happening.

Maybe it's the bumpmapping.

.......hmm.

I guess the only way to find out is to backup my bumpmapped materials dirs, then strip them of all bumpmap lines with my powershell script. How else am I gonna find the cause of this crap, it happens on two different maps...la_hub_1 and la_expipe_1... I haven't even been trying other maps, what if it happens everywhere?

If this is causing crashes I am gonna severely limit what gets bumpmapped to only really cool stuff like the stone sculpture faces on Asylum etc.,...damn.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 10:05:09 PM by Icicle »

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2017, 10:16:54 PM »
K there, bumpmapping stripped. 5 minute job thanks to scripts...shudder at the thought of doing that by hand.

Recompiling maps and testing........... this better solve it, sheesh, wtf else could it be... I've edited other maps extensively and not a single crash ever in dev mode or normal mode

If this fixes it first bumpmaps I'll bring back is grass, as grass in this game looks like a blurry green mess without bumpmapping...

I had mistakenly left the entire /bricks/ folder bumpmapped, that might have been responsible for the crash. Makes sense since the game wouldn't even work with half the folders all bumpmapped. Could be a memory problem, as it is already filled much more than usual due to the double-size textures (which never caused crashing issues even once).
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 10:19:40 PM by Icicle »

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2017, 10:34:46 PM »
Well, that settles it.

"HEY BUMPMAPPING IS GREAT! You get extra detail on all your textures!" "Really? cool!"

"Oh yeah, but your game will crash 1 in 5 times every time you switch maps! Enjoy!!!!!!"

Nah, I don't think so. After stripping the bumpmaps, I walked in an out of the Last Round 20+ times with no crash, no stutter, and much faster load time.

It's a bad idea to bumpmap world textures in general. I think this is because of the memory footprint of the double size textures being very high as compared to the original smaller ones. La_hub_1 is the best test case scenario because it meets the limits of the engine in almost every way.

That said, SOME world texture bumpmaps could work, I think. I'm gonna try putting the grass ones back in, they're needed for visual quality. Then I'll test running in and out of the Last Round again, see if even a small amount cause this issue - then we know, is it memory? Or is it just bumpmapping is bugged and more than a tiny amount screws the engine (memory leak?)?

And assuming it isn't a weird bug or memory leak issue, bumpmaps could work on almost any other map (like Asylum stonework in sm_hub_1)... It's probably not, I mean think about it. Every bumpmapped texture is dynamically lit based on relation to light sources in the world... it has to store that data somewhere. In a giant map like la_hub_1, with ALL brick textures bumpmapped... that's quite a lot of data.

Anyway, even if world textures are out or not, I bet it could still work for prop models though, we shall see.

I'm glad all the new stuff I put in and around the Last Round is safe at least, I was worried I would have to destroy it to stop the crashing.

Anyway here goes nothing...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 10:44:10 PM by Icicle »

Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2017, 10:57:26 PM »
Good. Added all the grass bumpmaps back in (there's only 2 grass textures), recompiled la_hub_1, went in and out of Last Round many times and no crashes.

So lesson learned. No bumpmapping pavement and sidewalks to make the cracks look sharper (lol), only bumpmap things that really need it, like blurry crap or cool things that would really "pop" with a bumpmap. General stuff like ugly brick walls etc are out, the footprint they make is just too killer on the game.

Also add in only one or two bumpmaps at a time, recompile, test in normal mode (not dev) by going in and out of some exit to another map and back over and over, to make sure there's no crashes.

Last thing I want is a finished mod that burns people by crashing on them constantly...lmao I'd never hear the end of it

Offline atrblizzard

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2017, 03:10:17 PM »
Problem with bump mapping is that they don't look like they are doing much to improving depth, and since VTM:B is on an older version of the Source engine, it doesn't have support for self-shadowing bump map. And without access to the source code, neither is parallax occlusion mapping. That is where the real result is visible.

Nowadays PBR is the standard for texturing and creating materials where both normal maps and height maps can make a huge difference with supplied specular/roughness maps.

As you can see, in modern engines like Unity you can create some really great results with PBR and a good normal map generator.
Notice how the water puddle reflects on the road, or the bumps on the sand on the beach, which both can be altered in real time to add or remove any water surface dynamically.










Offline Icicle

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Re: Bumpmapping VtMB and general stuff...
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2017, 05:13:32 PM »
That looks great, good info too.

I'm using all of this as a stepping stone to later projects far down the road. After I'm thoroughly finished with this mod (some day long away from now), I'm going to move forward either into Unity or Unreal.

Since I didn't know squat about 3D or games editing/creation when I got into this, part of what interested me about this is that it's old and not as sophisticated as modern engines....so it works like a stepping stone to the more advanced stuff.

 

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