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Offline Entenschreck

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #465 on: March 09, 2021, 10:11:43 pm »
Here's a little update for the handful of people waiting for Prelude II. You should know by now that waiting for anything related to Bloodlines basically means setting yourself up for disappointment  :taunt:
Okay, jokes aside. Wesp and I have both played Prelude II in it's very rough pre-alpha state. It's playable, but it has become clear very quickly while playtesting that there're some elements which I thought could be added during or after the alpha tests, but need to be added before I can confidently ask other modders to test the mod. Even small stuff can have a huge impact on gameplay if they're missing. A prime example for this is different ways to get money. If players can't get money they can't buy better weapons or armor, which makes fights pretty difficult.
Another example is side quests. Side quests can still be added later, so I didn't focus on them, but without side quests most players probably wouldn't explore a lot and therfore would miss vendors and other NPCs.
This means that, yes, we reached a milestone, but there's still more work to do than I thought would be required for what I can confidently call an alpha build.

There're some good news, as well, tough. While Wesp tested the mod I had time to expand the museum level.


Offline argikt

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #466 on: March 10, 2021, 06:47:12 pm »
Yes good news! Nice map! You're right! There're some people eager to play prelude 2, like me!


Offline Norrwin

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #467 on: March 12, 2021, 03:08:36 am »
It's been a while since I worked on the maps featured in Prelude I, but I vividly remember how difficult it can be to come up with solutions and paths that players understand.
There are actually ways to avoid most - if not any - fights, except for boss fights. Seems like I did a poor job at communicating that to players through the level design. I hope I did a better job with the maps for Prelude II.


I disagree with the part about doing a poor job of communicating through the level design. I though the number of options I found/understood was one of the strong points of the mod when I played it. It's one of the things that makes VTMB so endearing to me, as many times as I've played it I always find something new on every playthrough. As Prelude I was small I did go through it several times and tried to examine everything in detail so yea maybe I didn't catch on till the 5th or 6th time through but that is what I want in a game/mod.


The flip side of that is I was watching a Twitch stream and they called the 3 candle stick puzzles in Grout's mansion shite, which I also very much disagree with. But that's just the way it goes, make something to simple so that everyone can understand it and some will make fun of it for being "stupid" and make it complex enough that it isn't immediately obvious and some will hate it and call it shite.


Anyway my feedback is that I found the level design in Prelude I quite good.

Offline SCO

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #468 on: March 12, 2021, 06:52:37 am »
people used to pathetic skyrim simon-says puzzles fail at simple memory game presented differently, news at eleven.

I take a minor amount of satisfaction to think of people like that being forced to finish a game with actual hard puzzles or puzzles which are absurdly contextual (for instance, Cryo's KGB is a adventure game with real time puzzles and a somewhat 'open world' where you can go to some dozens of screens all the time. Miss a puzzle that depends on a npc being at a certain place or event? You're fucked - it's absolutely normal in that game to have to do part of a puzzle, rush out to another part of the map to do another puzzle, then rush back to finish the first, it's wonderfully assholeish - not the only game like that either, The Last Express being another more forgiving case).

Heck, i remember many more tough puzzles in console games.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 07:02:30 am by SCO »

Offline Entenschreck

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #469 on: March 13, 2021, 09:35:46 pm »
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I disagree with the part about doing a poor job of communicating through the level design. I though the number of options I found/understood was one of the strong points of the mod when I played it. It's one of the things that makes VTMB so endearing to me, as many times as I've played it I always find something new on every playthrough. As Prelude I was small I did go through it several times and tried to examine everything in detail so yea maybe I didn't catch on till the 5th or 6th time through but that is what I want in a game/mod.

Thank you so much. I feel very honored, because playing the mod multiple times and discovering new things along the way each time is exactly the kind of experience I want players to have. As a huge fan of Dishonored I want to keep things short and interesting while giving players more options than they can explore in a single playthrough. That's not an easy thing to do, or at least I don't find it easy to do it, but it looks like I kind of got it right in your eyes at least and that makes me proud. Thanks.

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The flip side of that is I was watching a Twitch stream and they called the 3 candle stick puzzles in Grout's mansion shite, which I also very much disagree with. But that's just the way it goes, make something to simple so that everyone can understand it and some will make fun of it for being "stupid" and make it complex enough that it isn't immediately obvious and some will hate it and call it shite.

To be honest, I don't like Grout's puzzles either. In both puzzles there's one switch that switches the lights on or off randomly, so I never bothered to try and understand the puzzle, but just pulled the levers randomly until the doors were unlocked. That's probably not what the designers intended, so, yes, it's pretty bad if you ask me.



Offline Красныйа

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #470 on: March 22, 2021, 04:02:25 pm »
I'm actually super stoked and excited about this mod! I just finished playing Prelude I and I was so sad that I completed it in roughly an hour and a half. I love the details and the love that was put in the mod, I was especially ecstatic with the fact that this is the VtM game but with new gameplay and lore that is faithful to the Inquisition franchise. I honestly can't wait to see what comes up next!

You guys have done an amazing job and its by far my favorite VtM mod.

Tbh the thing that mostly got me excited was that brief scene with Andrei and seeing a quick Vicissitude ritual happen.

Offline Entenschreck

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #471 on: March 22, 2021, 09:02:54 pm »
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I just finished playing Prelude I and I was so sad that I completed it in roughly an hour and a half.

Lol, an hour and a half? I can finish Prelude I in about 20 minutes, and so I didn't think anyone would need more than 45 minutes to complete the mod. That's awesome, because Prelude II is much longer and so far we only use placeholder-dialogues, which means that no NPC has more than a few lines to say. It's all like 
NPC: "You should see line this after you met ABC and did XYZ."
Player: "Okay, next quest."
and even at that stage Prelude II is signifcantly longer than Prelude I.
My personal goal is to hit 5 hours of gameplay for the whole project, meaning Prelude I , II, and III combined. This gives me hope that we'll make it.
Prelude I might be expanded one day, because I've got several maps, or at least parts of maps, that I had to cut. Maybe I'll try and repurpose them in he future, I don't know. I'd love to have a werewolf-related mission in Prelude I, but for now my focus remains on Prelude II.


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You guys have done an amazing job and its by far my favorite VtM mod.

Wow, words can't express my gratitude. I wasn't aware of anybody else following the development of Bloodlines Prelude, except for the usual suspects, who post in this thread regularly. And, let's be honest here, why would anyone care to follow? We take ages to get things done. I'm not complaining about that, it's just a fact. Slow and steady. For me the emphasis is on steady, but for anyone who's waiting, it's probably on slow.
I won't lie, it's still going to take a long time until Prelude II is finished, because, as I said, 99% of the dialogues are placeholders and we need people, especially native speakers, to help us out.


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Tbh the thing that mostly got me excited was that brief scene with Andrei and seeing a quick Vicissitude ritual happen.

Thanks, I remember what a nightmare it was to get that sh*t to work. Wesp and I both agreed that there had to be a cool introduction for that boss, but coming up with one that actually worked, was easier said than done. We had many ideas, and I tried many things, like having the monster smash through a gate, but in the end it became clear that we couldn't do anything that would create a place in which you could get stuck and die. Those exploding ghouls can surround you pretty quickly and once they have you in a corner, you can't leave and they'll just keep exploding until you're dead. That kills the fun.
So one day I was experimenting with the haunted stuff that flings at you in the ocean house hotel and that's when I had the idea for this ritual thing. I was so glad that we finally had a decent introduction for the monster, but then the first comment I read on ModDB about this was calling us out, because that's absolutely not the way Vicissitude works. Well, of course that's true, but I'm not going touch that part of the mod again anytime soon. I'm just glad it works.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 10:24:06 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline SCO

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #472 on: March 23, 2021, 06:58:38 pm »
People like to try things. For instance, i explored the heck out of the 'training area', saved and restored to see both paths of a alternate path, tried stealth when possible, etc. That's why it takes so long for some.

And personally i was disappointed that the 'lockpick trainer' didn't give a dot like the guns and the computers and the brawl/melee puppets. I liked the fact you could unlock a vendor too.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 07:03:42 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #473 on: March 23, 2021, 07:04:52 pm »
And personally i was disappointed that the 'lockpick trainer' didn't give a dot like the guns and the computers and the brawl/melee puppets.
I does give you a point but only if you are below a certain treshold. I think I argued you should always get a bonus but EntenSchreck was against it.

Offline Entenschreck

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #474 on: March 23, 2021, 09:13:02 pm »
And personally i was disappointed that the 'lockpick trainer' didn't give a dot like the guns and the computers and the brawl/melee puppets.
I does give you a point but only if you are below a certain treshold. I think I argued you should always get a bonus but EntenSchreck was against it.


That's right and that threshold is 1. You only get free dots in abilities you've got no points in at all.
The reason for that is that the training covers just the most basic stuff. Combat against puppets, shooting kind of straight, using a computer, and picking the cheapest lock on earth can only be of advantage for absolute beginners.

If you didn't have a dot in security, you probably found a bug I haven't heard of before.

Offline SCO

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #475 on: March 24, 2021, 06:34:12 pm »
I don't remember so it probably wasn't.

Offline SCO

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #476 on: April 20, 2021, 03:51:31 pm »
I replayed this and i noticed that the game isn't saving the character (ie: calling the function in vamputil that saves the character to 3 files in charInfo). The directory isn't made. I tried to make the directory to see if it was that but it didn't work.

Anyway, the console says 'TypeError given 2 arguments and expected 7"
 (or something like that the numbers are right).
Have i got a old version? 1.7 here.

Offline Malkav

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #477 on: April 20, 2021, 07:09:10 pm »
Yes, we have found these problems during alpha testing of Prelude II. Entenschreck has rewritten the whole script and now it works.
Co Author of Camarilla Edition Mod

Offline SCO

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #478 on: April 20, 2021, 08:33:48 pm »
Both versions are coming out at the same time? Maybe in the same download, if not the same 'game'?
I'm thinking that second because i've seen the technical problems that come from reusing hunter disciplines and i doubt you could switch around a fully functional player hunter with a player vampire without another stats.txt file.

Also the vendor npc doesn't delete the books from inventory after selling them, like that technique in the ww2 mod. Which means a high investigation/finance character can somewhat game a extra 9 xp or so, even counting the free dots.

Speaking of things that look unfinished, i cheated a bit (ok a lot) and added a miniquest for dots of finance and investigation with the man and woman npcs in the chateau.

The woman already has a variable and a secret to find but it's never rewarded with anything with the man or something  (if you discover her secret which you only can in the 1rst conversation I increase the G.chateau_woman variable to 2 from 1 to check it on conversation with the man).

You could easily slip a 100$ here or something instead.

Anyway, i was also wondering from poking around the files, was the ending last fight supposed to be much larger? There is a unused function there that has many more combatants.

I was also wondering where the gargoyle_talisman is supposed to be (to avoid the traps). Couldn't find it.


Praise worthy things. the maps are very clean and well made. few as they are.
And i really enjoyed the random inspection loot system. Kept me on my toes.

All in all, i won't regret playing it the third time when the update comes.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 08:45:24 pm by SCO »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Bloodlines Prelude
« Reply #479 on: April 20, 2021, 09:46:17 pm »
Both versions are coming out at the same time? Maybe in the same download, if not the same 'game'?
No, as you guessed correctly that would be impossible because of the hunter vampire switch. But we plan to update Prelude I at the same time that Prelude II comes out! There have been many small issues that we already fixed...

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Also the vendor npc doesn't delete the books from inventory after selling them, like that technique in the ww2 mod.
I have told EntenSchreck about it and it should end up in the updated Prelude I release if he remembers to include it ;).

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Speaking of things that look unfinished, i cheated a bit (ok a lot) and added a miniquest for dots of finance and investigation with the man and woman npcs in the chateau.
Which man and woman do you mean, the couple which is going to marry? Why should you get a reward for small talk?

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Anyway, i was also wondering from poking around the files, was the ending last fight supposed to be much larger?
You need to wait for EntenSchreck to answer.

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I was also wondering where the gargoyle_talisman is supposed to be (to avoid the traps). Couldn't find it.
That was an earlier idea that got scrapped...
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 09:48:34 pm by Wesp5 »

 

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