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Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines => Bloodlines Games General Discussion => Topic started by: tarulu on December 31, 2019, 12:09:56 PM

Title: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: tarulu on December 31, 2019, 12:09:56 PM
since bloodline 2 is coming out soon there is going to be a lot of talk about bloodlines 1 and perhaps in meantime we can contact the people behind the first version of the game and ask them some questions.

its highly possible that we don't get any answers but all the same it wont hurt to try so i already asked Wesp to do us all a Favour and if he got any chance to talk he asks some questions which may help to restore & recreate content.

so what questions do you have from first version?and i mean more than just who was the "Friend" sending you emails,i mean about Plot,Characters,Quests,etc...

i start first...why zombies in Hollywood were rising? perhaps it was because Gehenna but why hollywood then?necromancers can raise zombies so maybe it was a Giovanni thing.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Barabbah on December 31, 2019, 12:26:50 PM
Maybe they are trying to make a protest.
"We want our fair share of our movies sold in DVD!" or sh*t like that....
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Highwayman667 on December 31, 2019, 03:38:49 PM
Why was Jack helping Cain ? What did he gain ? Did he believe there was a bond or some loyalty he had to acquiesce to ?
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Barabbah on December 31, 2019, 05:49:08 PM
The real question is why Cain helped Jack. Maybe he's after all a symphatizer of the anarch's cause, who knows?
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Highwayman667 on December 31, 2019, 05:59:02 PM
The real question is why Cain helped Jack. Maybe he's after all a symphatizer of the anarch's cause, who knows?

I thought it was the other way around... it seemed like Jack was helping Cain. In the end Jack says that everything went as he (meaning Cain) predicted. So clearly Cain was calling the shots there.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Barabbah on December 31, 2019, 06:24:57 PM
That's another good point of view
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 01, 2020, 12:37:42 AM
My interpretation is that Caine did this as a test to see if the Kindred are worth saving in Gehenna. Like will they destroy each other or work together if something like the sarcophagus  happens! Jack goes with is as he is known to love making trouble in Camarilla cities...
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Nanaloma on January 02, 2020, 01:27:37 AM
What makes me wonder is was Jack even involved when the information was provided to Johansen in Turkey (where Cain was habituating in a cave).  The games sures seems to allude to Jack meeting the cab driver in LA ("I just met this guy ---").  It may be that Jack was recruited into the scheme late. 
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Highwayman667 on January 02, 2020, 01:57:49 AM
What makes me wonder is was Jack even involved when the information was provided to Johansen in Turkey (where Cain was habituating in a cave).  The games sures seems to allude to Jack meeting the cab driver in LA ("I just met this guy ---").  It may be that Jack was recruited into the scheme late.

A good point... but I find it deeply unlikely considering how Jack is conveniently there at the beginning to hold your hand and guide you through the very first stage of being a kindred. That dude was in it from the start.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 02, 2020, 10:06:13 AM
What makes me wonder is was Jack even involved when the information was provided to Johansen in Turkey (where Cain was habituating in a cave).

This will be answered in the Prelude mod, and yes, both is kind of true :)!
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: tarulu on January 03, 2020, 12:04:31 AM
i guess you don't get jack and Caine scene if you go with stratuss or eastern vampires so in that case their plan didn't work at all.

here are some more:
what was the deal with Carl?he only has few lines but it seems there was a bigger plan for him.

whats the deal with empty or unused Santa monica buildings? it seems it has the most unfinished ones which is strange since santa monica is the first hub in game and they had more time to work on it.

i have to say i was really disappointed with the room that has gaming machines when i first played i thought there would be something like pinball mini game but the room has no use at all and thats another thing that puzzles my mind.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Nanaloma on January 03, 2020, 12:49:32 AM
i guess you don't get jack and Caine scene if you go with stratuss or eastern vampires so in that case their plan didn't work at all.

i have to say i was really disappointed with the room that has gaming machines when i first played i thought there would be something like pinball mini game but the room has no use at all and thats another thing that puzzles my mind.

Yeah, I thought that too or at least a joke, like seeing the three stooges with chainsaws (as per the later Jack statement).  But then, Troika had a reputation of having trouble finishing projects often making severe changes late in the cycle so they were under constant pressure to finish.  They likely didn't have time. 
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 03, 2020, 10:24:51 AM
what was the deal with Carl? he only has few lines but it seems there was a bigger plan for him.

Who is Carl?

Quote
whats the deal with empty or unused Santa monica buildings?

Which do you mean? I added maps for all that are mentioned on the bus stops, the others are just scenery!

Quote
i have to say i was really disappointed with the room that has gaming machines when i first played i thought there would be something like pinball mini game but the room has no use at all and thats another thing that puzzles my mind.

I think I read somewhere that they did indeed plan minigames in the arcade, but cut this early on...
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: argikt on January 03, 2020, 10:43:03 AM
I supposed they had some ideas for madame Liotta too, she was mencioned several times and finally, is not present in the game.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: tarulu on January 03, 2020, 10:57:59 AM
Carl is the bartender in The Asylum

yes i know you did that,that's great but i mean what troika wanted to do with them?i am mostly interested in fortune teller in pier which i always thought that would be a mage since we have ghosts,vampires,ghouls,eastern vamps,werewolfs and zombies and i guess the only thing missing is a mage.


well that's too bad...the room is empty and you can't even destroy machines in there.


who is liotta?
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: argikt on January 03, 2020, 11:30:01 AM

who is liotta?

Is the fortune teller that you say in the pier, she moved to downtown and you can find her other place in the museum map (outside)
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: tarulu on January 03, 2020, 11:45:15 AM
you are right! i didn't remember her name.so perhaps this is one of things we should ask the devs if we get any chance
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 03, 2020, 03:26:00 PM
Carl is the bartender in The Asylum

You mean Cal! And I don't think he was ever meant to be more than a barkeeper.

Quote
i am mostly interested in fortune teller in pier which i always thought that would be a mage since we have ghosts,vampires,ghouls,eastern vamps,werewolfs and zombies and i guess the only thing missing is a mage.

She is...

Quote
who is liotta?

... Madame Liotta, see above. But there is nothing prebuild in her shack, so I doubt that anything was cut there
as the pier area is one of the earliest in the game. Her sign was visible downtown in one of the beta videos which
is the reason why EntenSchreck and me put her in the downtown area at the museum entrance and improvised
her moving to explain both appearances, so who knows...
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Barabbah on January 03, 2020, 08:39:12 PM
Maybe Madame Liotta is a franchise LOL
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Highwayman667 on January 03, 2020, 11:57:21 PM
Maybe Madame Liotta is a franchise LOL

(http://www.diariodevenusville.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/RAY-LIOTTA-900x444.jpg)
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: tarulu on January 04, 2020, 01:11:47 PM
Carl is the bartender in The Asylum

You mean Cal! And I don't think he was ever meant to be more than a barkeeper.

Quote
i am mostly interested in fortune teller in pier which i always thought that would be a mage since we have ghosts,vampires,ghouls,eastern vamps,werewolfs and zombies and i guess the only thing missing is a mage.

She is...

Quote
who is liotta?

... Madame Liotta, see above. But there is nothing prebuild in her shack, so I doubt that anything was cut there
as the pier area is one of the earliest in the game. Her sign was visible downtown in one of the beta videos which
is the reason why EntenSchreck and me put her in the downtown area at the museum entrance and improvised
her moving to explain both appearances, so who knows...
yes i mean Cal,sorry
i have to disagree his model is quit unique and i don't think they created this model just for few lines.

how do you know she is a mage?was there any info somewhere?
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 04, 2020, 03:38:10 PM
i have to disagree his model is quit unique and i don't think they created this model just for few lines.

There are a lot of unique models for single encounter NPCs, which is one reason Bloodlines is so great :)!

Quote
how do you know she is a mage? was there any info somewhere?

I don't believe that she is a mage and there is no info on it. I think a fortune teller just belongs to typical pier entertainment houses!
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Highwayman667 on January 04, 2020, 04:03:43 PM
There are a lot of unique models for single encounter NPCs, which is one reason Bloodlines is so great :)

Among so many others !
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on January 06, 2020, 06:38:32 PM
yes i mean Cal,sorry
i have to disagree his model is quit unique and i don't think they created this model just for few lines.
Maybe Troika had planned for things for him but i think he is in every version of Bloodlines during development just a barkeeper.
I believe his charactermodel was just one of few who already existed quite early.

Cal was originally the barkeeper in the Vesuvius.
Stop at 1:05



By the way Wesp is this male charactermodel from this trailer in the game?
I don´t recognize to have ever seen the guy in the blue shirt. Stop at 1:33



Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Barabbah on January 06, 2020, 07:38:49 PM
The guy in the second video looks like Phil (the male nurse in the blood bank)
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: endthewars on January 06, 2020, 11:00:11 PM

Which do you mean? I added maps for all that are mentioned on the bus stops, the others are just scenery!


I doubt this is what he is talking about, but there are still quite a few unused places that are used in cutscenes and such. I don't think those levels and rooms were built just for the cutscenes, so I always wondered what they were originally for.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 07, 2020, 09:16:28 AM
I doubt this is what he is talking about, but there are still quite a few unused places that are used in cutscenes and such.

You can visit these maps from the game or the map editor and most of them are unfinished beyond what is shown.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: endthewars on January 07, 2020, 11:59:23 AM
I doubt this is what he is talking about, but there are still quite a few unused places that are used in cutscenes and such.

You can visit these maps from the game or the map editor and most of them are unfinished beyond what is shown.

My point was, if these maps were only built for the cutscenes, they certainly wouldn't need to be as large as they now, they would only have what needs to be seen during the cutscene, isn't that the usual practice? Yet most of them are quite large and still hold a lot of details that normally cannot be seen. They were either a part of a map, or they were maps themselves. In all likelihood, they were just cut and repurposed.

It is not like we can do anything with them now. What I am saying is, maybe there were more to them, we may never know.

I recall that a while ago I tried to figure out if it all would fit together. I was especially curious about how the tutorial map would fit the hub. I kinda feel like looking into that again. It is nice to see and try to figure out what they were going for. :)
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 07, 2020, 02:13:22 PM
My point was, if these maps were only built for the cutscenes, they certainly wouldn't need to be as large as they now, they would only have what needs to be seen during the cutscene, isn't that the usual practice? Yet most of them are quite large and still hold a lot of details that normally cannot be seen.

As far as I remember they hardly contain much more than what is needed. Still it's usual to cut them out of larger maps so you might get more details in the background. I think the Antitribu Mod build a seperate haven level out of the Nines-saves-player-downtown cutscene map.

Quote
I was especially curious about how the tutorial map would fit the hub.

I remember that someone already made a pretty nice screenshot on how the two areas should overlap. Sadly this would not be easy!
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: endthewars on January 07, 2020, 03:25:01 PM
I remember that someone already made a pretty nice screenshot on how the two areas should overlap. Sadly this would not be easy!

I would have loved to see that!

It would have been incredibly cool to be able to revisit that place. For some reason I always believed it was intended to be a single map early in development but they split it. You cannot visit the theater again for example and something tells me you should have been able to. (You can get to the front door, without being able to interact with it, which is weird.)

Of course, this is just a guess.

Would it be difficult because of the engine limitations? (Like map size or something?)

As far as I remember they hardly contain much more than what is needed. Still it's usual to cut them out of larger maps so you might get more details in the background. I think the Antitribu Mod build a seperate haven level out of the Nines-saves-player-downtown cutscene map.

I always wanted to attach Nines-saves-player-downtown cutscene map into the downtown map. I was working on it some years back, I wonder why I never finished it.

Is it especially difficult to edit and merge maps like this? I can't remember why I dropped it.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 07, 2020, 05:01:26 PM
Would it be difficult because of the engine limitations?

Probably. Downtown is the biggest map and you would need to decompile it, add the tutorial area, and then recompile it all again without errors! Also as far as I remember there are huge changes around the theatre backdoor in both maps so you would need to basically rearrange this whole area...

Quote
Is it especially difficult to edit and merge maps like this?

No. Using Hammer it's quite easy to merge maps! Still the cutscene map looks very different to the downtown one, so I assume it's a bit off.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: endthewars on January 07, 2020, 09:26:08 PM
Would it be difficult because of the engine limitations?

Probably. Downtown is the biggest map and you would need to decompile it, add the tutorial area, and then recompile it all again without errors! Also as far as I remember there are huge changes around the theatre backdoor in both maps so you would need to basically rearrange this whole area...

Quote
Is it especially difficult to edit and merge maps like this?

No. Using Hammer it's quite easy to merge maps! Still the cutscene map looks very different to the downtown one, so I assume it's a bit off.

I understand, it can be done, but it would be really difficult to do it properly.

I just checked both maps and I can see what you mean, it is supposed to be the same place, but they are nothing alike. You can't really move the theatre or the multistorey car park behind it and you would need to make space for every usable building the tutorial has. Given the fact you can't (or shouldn't) alter the hub map a lot, it would be a nightmare to do it right.

Would it even be worth it? Maybe... Even though they should be the same place, two maps are nothing alike and it creates a huge inconsistency. Plus, you can't even revisit those locations again even though you should be able to, which is a huge waste in my opinion.

Is it worth the time and effort? Absolutely not. Most people wont even remember what that area looked like in the tutorial by the time they reach the Downtown hub. I was aware of it before because in my first play trough I remember trying to enter the theater and visit that garage from the tutorial again and being unable to find it no matter where I looked. But even when I realized it wasn't exactly the same I still failed to notice how vastly different they were until I checked both maps side by side.

It would have been nice though.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: argikt on January 08, 2020, 09:16:21 AM
Merging maps could cause several problems that you dont see in the compile process, like duplicate names on entities, several starting points, etc...
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: endthewars on January 08, 2020, 01:49:41 PM
Merging maps could cause several problems that you dont see in the compile process, like duplicate names on entities, several starting points, etc...

In this case, map merging isn't even possible in the first place. Like I have said, two maps look nothing alike. One would need to painstakingly recreate the tutorial map inside downtown hub map and somehow make them fit together without altering the latter too much. I am even entire sure if it can be done without ruining the downtown hub map.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on January 08, 2020, 11:12:38 PM
The guy in the second video looks like Phil (the male nurse in the blood bank)
Are you sure? The guy looks similiar to Phil but there are difference. Maybe an old Phil model like the old male Brujah model which was in the trailer.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Barabbah on January 09, 2020, 09:07:00 AM
It doesn't help him being in the beach house....
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: endthewars on January 09, 2020, 11:09:31 PM
The guy in the second video looks like Phil (the male nurse in the blood bank)
Are you sure? The guy looks similiar to Phil but there are difference. Maybe an old Phil model like the old male Brujah model which was in the trailer.

It could be Phil, or it could be a cut character. It is entirely possible.

It doesn't help him being in the beach house....

I am pretty sure they created those trailers with whatever resources they had at the time, not everything was final yet. So character appearing in places they shouldn't be and earlier iterations of a character appearing isn't out of the ordinary. It could even be a cut character. (model could even be a place holder) Maybe there was a cut quest that involved the beach house, which is used only once in the entire game for some strange reason.

For some reason, I find it weird that there are many places that's used only once and never again, it is just not how it is usually done. But knowing they had to cut many quests do to time constraints, it makes sense.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on January 10, 2020, 09:52:19 AM
It could be Phil, or it could be a cut character. It is entirely possible.

He looks a bit like the common Ventrue ghoul only with a blue shirt.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on January 10, 2020, 02:13:36 PM
He looks a bit like the common Ventrue ghoul only with a blue shirt.
Who is that? I didn´t know that there is a Ventrue ghoul charactermodel in the game or in game files.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Malkav on January 10, 2020, 02:19:13 PM
He looks a bit like the common Ventrue ghoul only with a blue shirt.
Who is that? I don´t know that where was / is a Ventrue ghoul in the game.
I think Wesp is referring to the model name here.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on January 10, 2020, 02:27:29 PM
I think Wesp is referring to the model name here.
Okay but i am still unsure if this model is used in the patch.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: MachiavellianMalkavian on January 31, 2020, 10:20:40 AM
To answer the original question, something that piques my interest is Gary Golden. The entire setup with saving Barbarus seems extremely suspicious and I believe Gary's motives were not in your best interest and that somewhere along the line be it fighting with the gang in Chinatown or encountering The Mandarin you were expected to die. Gary sends you on a wild goose chase that for all purposes is intended to kill you. After infiltrating the Giovanni mansion and recovering the sarcophagus Gary is nowhere to be found and unheard of in the rest of the game. It seems to me Gary was banking on your death for political reasons and gave you the information out of fear of you/Lacroix. I could very well be wrong but I'd love others thoughts.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Highwayman667 on January 31, 2020, 02:36:40 PM
To answer the original question, something that piques my interest is Gary Golden. The entire setup with saving Barbarus seems extremely suspicious and I believe Gary's motives were not in your best interest and that somewhere along the line be it fighting with the gang in Chinatown or encountering The Mandarin you were expected to die. Gary sends you on a wild goose chase that for all purposes is intended to kill you. After infiltrating the Giovanni mansion and recovering the sarcophagus Gary is nowhere to be found and unheard of in the rest of the game. It seems to me Gary was banking on your death for political reasons and gave you the information out of fear of you/Lacroix. I could very well be wrong but I'd love others thoughts.

First things first: Welcome to the forum. Our little haven of love for Vampire: The Masquerade !

As for your post, while I definitely do not believe Gary had anyone's interests but his and the clan's in mind, I believe he did wanted the fledgling to succeed. If The Mandarin had somehow destroyed the fledgling then Gary would've never had Barabas back. As for what Gary's whereabouts are, I think he was pretty confident shit was about to go down in LA between the camarilla, the sabbat and Cain... so he wanted absolutely none of that to involve him; thus, he bailed.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: fylimar on January 31, 2020, 04:23:01 PM
I agree with Highwayman, that Gary wanted the fledgling to succeed. Failure would have ment for him to get involved to get his boy back and stop the Mandarin from getting information about the vampiric condition. So this was a win-win for Gary. As for why he didn't show himself afterwards: Why should he? The Nosferatus strength is getting information from the dark. I think, Gary made it very clear, that he kept an eye on whats going on by hacking the fledglings computer and giving her/him that poster quest. It was meant as a 'I see you, but you don't see me' gesture.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: MachiavellianMalkavian on February 01, 2020, 07:58:21 AM
Very good points from the both of you that I hadn't thought of. Regardless of his intent Gary was one of my favorite characters and his lack of screen time saddened me. Such a creepy guy.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: fylimar on February 01, 2020, 09:44:38 AM
I love Gary too, one of my favorite characters. He has a great humor, which is the best, when you play as a Malkavian and think, that Gary is one of the voices in your head.
The world needs more Gary.
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Barabbah on February 01, 2020, 12:29:22 PM
The world needs an ending siding with Gary
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: fylimar on February 01, 2020, 02:35:51 PM
The world needs an ending siding with Gary

Yes, that would be great :)
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: Wesp5 on February 01, 2020, 03:39:56 PM
The world needs an ending siding with Gary

Yes, that would be great :)

Which probably is the reason why Bloodlines 2 has a "Nosferatu" faction :)!
Title: Re: Unanswered Storyline Questions
Post by: fylimar on February 01, 2020, 04:06:27 PM
The world needs an ending siding with Gary

Yes, that would be great :)

Which probably is the reason why Bloodlines 2 has a "Nosferatu" faction :)!

Which makes me incredible happy :)
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