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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2018, 01:21:47 PM »
At the first glance, it's seems really awkward to consider Serbians and Croatians "brothers" after that war, but if you think of Cain and Abel... Indeed they are, but not all brothers and sisters are on good terms with each other.

Greets from Ukraine, by the way.

If you apply that logic to its full conclusion, all of humanity are brothers and sisters. Yet, the inevitable fact  is that history of human species is fundamentally a history of violence. I know not if you are Ukrainian or Russian living in Ukraine but can you truly say today that Ukrainians and Russians are brothers? No, and if you look back through history, there is precious little evidence to suggest brotherhood, quite opposite if we are to be honest. So fades the last ember of Pan Slavic brotherhood.

Temper us in fire, and we grow stronger. When we suffer, we survive.

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2018, 06:09:50 PM »
Considering how much similarity our looks, language and culture share, I deem any further evidence that both are of similar origins or influenced each other at various points, unnecessary. There are more Russians who could pass for Ukrainians by face than Ukrainians themselves, and even languages could be (and, in fact, were) easily mistaken for dialects of each other, much closer than others from the same Slavic group, though they're absolutely valid separate languages from linguistics perspective.
Considering that Kievan Rus was far more convoluted than latter Russian Empire, it's not that surpising that our origins could not be traced to a single ethnos or nation, but a rather fuzzy group or even a set of common influences, so there is no strict scientific evidence to search for. "Russes" are a poetical image for that common in both nations, not "Slavic Aryans".

Not kidding about faces, the most of Western Ukrainians are so mixed up with Poles, Moldavians, Romanians or Austro-Hungarian people that they resemble anything but a stereotypical Ukrainian, complete with Tyrolese-looking national outfits and a local dialect that they prefer to literary Ukrainian. Easterns, on the other side, either has Russian relatives or a bit more mongoloid-looking by themselves, so, actually, a Ukrainian that looks lika a pureblood Ukrainian is an exception.

Could call myself neither, I'm exactly as Ukrainian as Russian, not to mention some Austro-Hungarian influences, which are quite evident. Nor I could identify myself with either nation or any other.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 07:15:00 PM by deicide »

Offline Aurelian

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2018, 07:19:04 PM »
Considering how much similarity our looks, language and culture share, I deem any further evidence that both are of similar origins or influenced each other at various points, unnecessary. There are more Russians who could pass for Ukrainians by face than Ukrainians themselves, and even languages could be (and, in fact, were) easily mistaken for dialects of each other, much closer than others from the same Slavic group, though they're absolutely valid separate languages from linguistics perspective.
Considering that Kievan Rus was far more convoluted than latter Russian Empire, it's not that surpising that our origins could not be traced to a single ethnos or nation, but a rather fuzzy group or even a set of common influences, so there is no strict scientific evidence to search for. "Russes" are a poetical image for that common in both nations, not "Slavic Aryans".

Not kidding about faces, the most of Western Ukrainians are so mixed up with Poles, Moldavians, Romanians or Austro-Hungarian people that they resemble anything but a stereotypical Ukrainian, complete with Tyrolese-looking national outfits and a local dialect that they prefer to literary Ukrainian. Easterns, on the other side, either has Russian relatives or a bit more mongoloid-looking by themselves, so, actually, a Ukrainian that looks lika a pureblood Ukrainian is an exception.

Could call myself neither, I'm exactly as Ukrainian as Russian, not to mention some Austro-Hungarian influences, which are quite evident. Nor I could identify myself with either nation or any other.

I never commented on facial appearance and find your comment rather irrelevant, to be blunt and honest. That being said, considering you provided information, with what do you identify with? Nothing? Collective homo sapiens species?
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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2018, 07:36:04 PM »
Still, you're commented on the lack of any sort of "brotherood" between these nations. While looks are deceptive, they could give some initial impression, so a quick summary would not hurt.

Spot on, I belong to nowhere. Could support or be fond of something, but not actually belong to.

Offline Aurelian

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2018, 07:45:27 PM »
Spot on, I belong to nowhere. Could support or be fond of something, but not actually belong to.

You took the lone wolf ending in Bloodlines, did you not?

Care for some Solzhenitsyn?

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Before the camps, I regarded the existence of nationality as something that shouldn’t be noticed - nationality did not really exist, only humanity. But in the camps one learns: if you belong to a successful nation you are protected and you survive. If you are part of universal humanity - too bad for you.
Temper us in fire, and we grow stronger. When we suffer, we survive.

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2018, 08:05:37 PM »
Came across my post on the first playthrough in LaCroix topic, aren't you?

Not that I'm of particularly good opinion of him, but at least he possessed some personal courage, and could identify himself with mankind, while my phrase was literal. And, I did not pick that ending IRL, it was like that game once picked it for me before I had a chance to finish the tutorial, if you know what I mean.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 08:17:35 PM by deicide »

Offline Aurelian

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2018, 08:17:45 PM »
Came across my post on the first playthrough in LaCroix topic, aren't you?

Not that I'm of particularly good opinion of him, but at least he possessed some personal courage, and could identify himself with mankind, while my phrase was literal. And, I did not pick that ending IRL, it was like that game once picked it for me, if you know what I mean.

Actually, no.

Your comment
Quote
Spot on, I belong to nowhere. Could support or be fond of something, but not actually belong to.
That reminded me of Caine telling you of those who belong nowhere when you choose the lone wolf ending.

Temper us in fire, and we grow stronger. When we suffer, we survive.

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2018, 05:46:32 PM »
An interesting coincidence, did not think of it at the moment.
Speaking of "brotherhood", it does not bear any positive connotations for me (out of context), "family" likewise. Reminds me of royal families and such at worst, or just "related" or sharing any common roots at best. No one makes enemies as bitter as close relatives.

Ибо семья
Гробовая змея
Горе твое
И погибель твоя

So, I would prefer friendly nations or allied for the ones who are walking the same way. Probably, that was the source of our misunderstanding?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 06:07:59 PM by deicide »

Offline Aurelian

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2018, 09:05:43 AM »
An interesting coincidence, did not think of it at the moment.
Speaking of "brotherhood", it does not bear any positive connotations for me (out of context), "family" likewise. Reminds me of royal families and such at worst, or just "related" or sharing any common roots at best. No one makes enemies as bitter as close relatives.

Ибо семья
Гробовая змея
Горе твое
И погибель твоя

So, I would prefer friendly nations or allied for the ones who are walking the same way. Probably, that was the source of our misunderstanding?

You regard the existence of social cohesion units such as family in negative light? I highly doubt that a average person immediately thinks of royal families. That being said, the Western civilization created greatest works of art and made greatest scientific discoveries precisely during the era of monarchies. Something to think about, when you visit Rome, London, Paris, Moscow and many other royal cities, what does truly captivate the souls of people visiting these cities? Modern era creations or things of sublime beauty from European monarchic past?
Temper us in fire, and we grow stronger. When we suffer, we survive.

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2018, 09:28:02 AM »
Not positive, more precisely, either purely neutral or negative at worst. Unless it's a "united family" or "friendly family", the family are just "close relatives" to me, nothing more.

In our overpopulated world it's losing its original meaning for the reason that children cannot separate from parents as early as 50 years ago, like in 18 years or such, which ensues the competition inside the family.

In order to get back on topic a bit, I would name Goering brothers, Hermann and Albert, as an example of brothers who were a real lifetime friends no matter how much their political views differed. Not everyone are like them.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 09:39:57 AM by deicide »

Offline Aurelian

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2018, 09:45:45 AM »
Not positive, more precisely, either purely neutral or negative at worst. Unless it's a "united family" or "friendly family", the family are just "close relatives" to me, nothing more.

In our overpopulated world it's losing its original meaning for the reason that children cannot separate from parents as early as 50 years ago, like in 18 years or such, which ensues the competition inside the family.

In order to get back on topic a bit, I would name Goering brothers, Hermann and Albert, as an example of brothers who were a real lifetime friends no matter how much their political views differed. Not everyone are like them.

I understand your line of thought, although I do not share your conclusion.

That being said, we have digressed from original topic a lot, so perhaps a wise course of action would be to stop any further unnecessary debate in this thread.
Temper us in fire, and we grow stronger. When we suffer, we survive.

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2018, 11:13:21 AM »
Agree, though I still haven't addressed the monarchy question. Indeed, such an extreme power centralisation was beneficial for the progress of mankind at the time, and indeed it works well while the ruling and management classes are in shape, as well as aristocracy.

 

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