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Online deicide

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Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« on: September 28, 2018, 05:28:32 AM »
Originally a part of the Antitribu mod discussion, regarding Lasombra armors.

And regarding the nazi dresses (which I already know your position, on other posts, were you state characters like lasombra can be ideologically far right wing) for myself I just edited the textures, I respect the fact this it's your mod and this your idea. But I want also to express my opinion, still not pretending to imposing on you: I had always the impression in the WoD nazism (and generally right wing) is rejected as a gaming possibility (for the best). Even the most vicious beings are, like, either baalists or medieval warlords.

Only one is Nazi, more precisely, the others are modern Hugo Boss clothes and Marilyn Manson fan outfits. I've found this particular armor distasteful as well despite being more than welcome to such a roleplay ideas. Even if she is a neo-nazi indeed, walking around dressed in Gestapo uniform replica is more fitting for a batshit Malk girl than a serious character, besides Gestapo are considered sucky among this crowd, for the reason they're did nothing but pretended to work most of the time.

For the same reason it's impossible to find neutral, not to mention positive, Nazi portrayal in Hollywood, pop culture in general and it's so exquisitely rare even in more underground entertainment industry. That's called "mainstream taboo": otherwise a film or tabletop game might get a ban in many countries or marginalized, while a director, studio or company are risking being ostracised. Which is laughable in view of the fact that it contains far worse (in a loud whisper: Tzimisce) content than ultraright wing.

Speaking of real neo-nazis, one of my friends from Russia is exactly that. All they want in short is less impudent Caucassian guys in their city by whaterver means, legal and illegal, for the reason that the latter have really gone over the line, acting like owners of the place. By the way, when I once came to visit him, we started the party off by getting some heroin and extra stuff from his drug dealer friend, who happen to be a pureblood Jew. Mentioning Hitler's opinion on Jews an junkies seems a little bit redunant...
Neo-nazi aren't about so-called "racial purity" based on the faux-scientific definition of races, but, roughly speaking, getting rid of social groups that causing the most trouble, no matter if intersects with an actual ethnicity or not. So don't be afraid of open-mindedness when RP-ing such a character. Like, modern Nazi more likely would be found celebrating Hanukkah (involving papaver somniferum) with Jews than massacring them, or something even more twisted, Jews themseves being Nazi...

I think it worth a separate topic, isn't it?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 05:42:02 AM by deicide »



Offline Barabbah

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 07:46:19 AM »
Your case is a very rare exception and with a lot of differences.
Here in Italy it's happening a resurgence of the fascism. Far right politicians use the internet to spread fear through fake news (here's actually a thing): distorting fact, selecting statistics and inventing convenient truths. Every day I hear of casa pound (one of the big ex-fascist parties) squads through the streets searching easy targets to hit without get attention. I saw myself one of them. I read of a black woman and her baby hit by those illegal patrols. It also made news a man shooting from his car to a black neighbor, killing five people, the chase ended with him in a square, using the italian flag as a cloak and shouting far wing speech with the roman salute while he was arrested. You know ho he was? A small politician of the biggest italian right parties, lega.
The leader of lega, matteo salvini, is someone worth of mention. A man who is known he never finish studies or did any job, he entered the party an made a significant rise in the power, become the head of the party. Even then he never worked, nor in Italy nor in the European Union where he has a seat. He gets both salaries and the parliamentary immunity from the second job. He can distort fact and news as he like, no one can touch him: he speaks only in his social media platforms and wherever he knows no one can contradict him. And if someone does it his platforms have ready answers to discredit the source. His electoral base only follows him in the approved media where he's never wrong. His only agenda is eradicate Italy and Europe from immigrants, so he attacks every one who can politically stop him (even the European Union from whom he gets all his immunity, if this is not a signal of his hypocrisy....) and any politician who talks about other issues. He attacks any menace to christianity, often taking holy symbols in his speeches, and yet he denounce the church when it makes stances against his positions. He attacks islamic oppression of women while his party is now proposing a law which practically makes charges against rape and prevent kids of divorced parents to stay with the abusive one unaffordable by most of the victims. He attacks any menace to the authority, but only now as he is minister of the interns, and when he was put under investigation for kidnapping, abuse of power and illegal arrest (part of the first relevant act of work in his entire life, dealing with a boat of illegal immigrants) he mocked the state authority. And he never lost the support of his electorate: his platforms covered all that despite he is the personification of hate, ignorance and corruption.
All of this (and I hope it's wasn't too long) to explain how I prefer a fictional evil like a tzimisce then a lesser but more real and close evil like nazism and fascism.
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Offline Barabbah

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2018, 10:14:34 AM »
I understand you have your experience related on where you live, I just said mine down here
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Offline Gossamer

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2018, 01:49:58 PM »
Where I live (the us) ultra right wing isn’t talked about much unless you are on the Internet. This is concerning due to the ultra left wing being praised and defended at points when they are two sides of the same coin. ANTIFA is an anti fascist organization who I would consider to be fascists. They can be and often have been incredibly violent towards right wing protesters. I would explain everything in more detail but its quite complicated and i don’t have time for it right now. So I will leave it at this.

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2018, 03:55:44 AM »
Your case is a very rare exception and with a lot of differences.
...

More common than one could imagine, for the reason of nutcase clowns and Hitler worship kiddies always enjoying the loudest publicity. No one in their right mind would use random murders, not for moral reasons, that does not even qualify as a valid method of struggle since it unites and alerts intended targets instead of demoralising them, skews public opinion in their favor and discredits the whole movement. In fact, it gives them a valid method to complain, law enforcement to take measures, and the goverment to oppress ultra-rights. The situation you're described seems like an extreme form of attention whoring / smoke screen not dissimilar to the Trump's show.
Whenever someone dying, it's always happening not with you by definition. In order to be effective, the murder should be large scale enough (aka mass murder) or used against prominent figures, serving either as a direct population control or terror method.
To borrow from my friend's expierence, a few anonymous beatings here and here and a bit of toxic fumes at the restaurant goes far longer way than such a display of stupidity. The dead are devoid of fear, so in order to sow the terror one should not end their life but make it intolerable.

I doubt you would ever cross ways with serious Nazi groups who pursue realistic goals or even learn of their existence unless you're involved or know someone personally.

Regarding fictional evil, radical Islamists (think of Mujahideen of Afganistan or The Two Towers guys) even have their own major clan, Assamites, complete with the literal Quran interpretation. Feels real enough to me. And, there are no moderate Muslims, pardon, Assamites, officially, unlike IRL, probably they were considered too soft for WoD, which is a shame, I consider metaphorical interpretation correct as opposed to literal that had some sense 1500 years ago but had become horribly outdated in the modern context. To give an example, the infamous demand to hide one's face could be understood roughly as "don't pretend you're going to sleep with someone [unless you're indeed are]".

The World of Darkness always was a twisted, drugged up reflection of another illusion called real world. I'm convinced that one should not shy away from darker real world inspired elements, for such are the essential part of it's charm. There is no room for taboos, mainstream or otherwise, only personal preference matters.

Of course, stuck in the past nutcases are as fun to RP as to watch around, so I would prefer playing someone more entertaining. Myself more interested in philosophies that happen to be the source of inspiration for German fascism (think of Nihilism, Nietzsche or ancient concepts such as the Veil of Maya) than fascism itself. An interesting fact about me: was often being told that I was reading Nietzsche too much in times when I did not know who he is. Guess we walked a similar path...
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 05:58:10 AM by deicide »

Offline Barabbah

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2018, 06:23:46 AM »
Your case is a very rare exception and with a lot of differences.
...

More common than one could imagine, for the reason of nutcase clowns and Hitler worship kiddies always enjoying the loudest publicity. No one in their right mind would use random murders, not for moral reasons, that does not even qualify as a valid method of struggle since it unites and alerts intended targets instead of demoralising them, skews public opinion in their favor and discredits the whole movement. In fact, it gives them a valid method to complain, law enforcement to take measures, and the goverment to oppress ultra-rights. The situation you're described seems like an extreme form of attention whoring / smoke screen not dissimilar to the Trump's show.
Whenever someone dying, it's always happening not with you by definition. In order to be effective, the murder should be large scale enough (aka mass murder) or used against prominent figures, serving either as a direct population control or terror method.
To borrow from my friend's expierence, a few anonymous beatings here and here and a bit of toxic fumes at the restaurant goes far longer way than such a display of stupidity. The dead are devoid of fear, so in order to sow the terror one should not end their life but make it intolerable.

I doubt you would ever cross ways with serious Nazi groups who pursue realistic goals or even learn of their existence unless you're involved or know someone personally.

Regarding fictional evil, radical Islamists (think of Mujahideen of Afganistan or The Two Towers guys) even have their own major clan, Assamites, complete with the literal Quran interpretation. Feels real enough to me. And, there are no moderate Muslims, pardon, Assamites, officially, unlike IRL, probably they were considered too soft for WoD, which is a shame, I consider metaphorical interpretation correct as opposed to literal that had some sense 1500 years ago but had become horribly outdated in the modern context. To give an example, the infamous demand to hide one's face could be understood roughly as "don't pretend you're going to sleep with someone [unless you're indeed are]".

The World of Darkness always was a twisted, drugged up reflection of another illusion called real world. I'm convinced that one should not shy away from darker real world inspired elements, for such are the essential part of it's charm. There is no room for taboos, mainstream or otherwise, only personal preference matters.

Of course, stuck in the past nutcases are as fun to RP as to watch around, so I would prefer playing someone more entertaining. Myself more interested in philosophies that happen to be the source of inspiration for German fascism (think of Nihilism, Nietzsche or ancient concepts such as the Veil of Maya) than fascism itself. An interesting fact about me: was often being told that I was reading Nietzsche too much in times when I did not know who he is. Guess we walked a similar path...

Makes sense.
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2018, 08:09:22 AM »
This topic seems interesting to drop in.

Well, I'm living in the Balkans so political turmoil, idiotic warfare and idealistic oppression is known to me on a much deeper scale. Some stuff that is happening in the West comes off to me as a pendulum relapse: from extreme liberalism to extreme fascism, it had to happen in my opinion. The amount of immigration is really killing the domestic cultures, especially if the immigrants are violent and refuse to follow the laws of the land - in my country they cause a lot of trouble so violent expulsion comes off as a natural response. There is an old saying that in a single country there should be no more than one king, one army and one religion - having separate religious groups treated specially and protected as white bears naturally invites the double-standard policy: I am not allowed to say "white pride" in fear of being labeled as a Nazi, but "black pride" is totally fine - either everyone faces same treatment or you risk developing a victim culture where certain groups terrorize others. The same thing goes for the "N" word: black rappers use it and hoard millions, others use it and they face a lynch mob as well as public humiliation. I grow dull at the entire thing... I am a moderate pacifist, which can be summarized as follows: "cool as long as you don't endanger me".  People living in the West, this is all purely from the things I saw/read on the net, so everything is subjective, no hard feelings I hope.
WoD is a world for escapism, but the thing that drew me most to it was not the taboo, violence and etc, but the romanticizing of the struggle, of the duality and dealing with loss. I don't prefer having random stories of frenzied vamps or taboo topics for their own sake, but a deeper and more immersive story that deals with real problems that you face as you "change" existences.
Me: "I love lollipops!"
WoD ST: "We don't allow lollipops, because we are too dark!"

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2018, 11:47:34 AM »
To continue on Matteo Salvini topic, his lookalike Donald Trump is blatantly playing a villain on the border of premature termination (but never actually crossing it), revoking or just attacking the most questionable "freedoms" like abortions insurance for lower class or faggy marriages in such a way that maximizes a noise from opposition (willingly particiating in the game) out of such a deeds, in order to be heroically displaced by Hillary whom Americans would hail lika a saviour, in an another example of classic Jewish story of a poor man, rabbi and a goat. She will continue the same mainline (like Trump left DMCA act in place after Obama), but dial back some of these stolen faux-freedoms, creating an illusion of improvement over predecessor. Then she will purposefully fvck up something of a little importance in order to be displaced by the next Republican president in turn and so on...
The only difference between their politics is load distribution over the insufficiently funded pyramid: under Democrats, middle class is fvcked by paying for the lower, under Republicans the lowers are screwed over doing so for themselves without enough means to do so.

Matteo Salvini could be filling a similar niche in Italy, though I'm not sure which type of political scheme exactly is he involved in.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 04:19:36 AM by deicide »

Offline Aurelian

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2018, 05:12:27 PM »
This topic seems interesting to drop in.

Well, I'm living in the Balkans so political turmoil, idiotic warfare and idealistic oppression is known to me on a much deeper scale. Some stuff that is happening in the West comes off to me as a pendulum relapse: from extreme liberalism to extreme fascism, it had to happen in my opinion. The amount of immigration is really killing the domestic cultures, especially if the immigrants are violent and refuse to follow the laws of the land - in my country they cause a lot of trouble so violent expulsion comes off as a natural response. There is an old saying that in a single country there should be no more than one king, one army and one religion - having separate religious groups treated specially and protected as white bears naturally invites the double-standard policy: I am not allowed to say "white pride" in fear of being labeled as a Nazi, but "black pride" is totally fine - either everyone faces same treatment or you risk developing a victim culture where certain groups terrorize others. The same thing goes for the "N" word: black rappers use it and hoard millions, others use it and they face a lynch mob as well as public humiliation. I grow dull at the entire thing... I am a moderate pacifist, which can be summarized as follows: "cool as long as you don't endanger me".  People living in the West, this is all purely from the things I saw/read on the net, so everything is subjective, no hard feelings I hope.
WoD is a world for escapism, but the thing that drew me most to it was not the taboo, violence and etc, but the romanticizing of the struggle, of the duality and dealing with loss. I don't prefer having random stories of frenzied vamps or taboo topics for their own sake, but a deeper and more immersive story that deals with real problems that you face as you "change" existences.

People of the western Balkans are molded by experience of perpetual war, ethnic strife and economic hardships. Such conditions inevitably create societies and people that are inherently cynical and suspicious. Always on your guard mentality is deeply rooted in these lands, partly a legacy of centuries we spent under the brutal Ottoman rule. As such, our thought patterns are fairly different when compared to people of Western Europe or America, who have not experienced war or any great tragedy on their own soil since WW2.
Temper us in fire, and we grow stronger. When we suffer, we survive.

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2018, 06:38:10 PM »
This topic seems interesting to drop in.

Well, I'm living in the Balkans so political turmoil, idiotic warfare and idealistic oppression is known to me on a much deeper scale. Some stuff that is happening in the West comes off to me as a pendulum relapse: from extreme liberalism to extreme fascism, it had to happen in my opinion. The amount of immigration is really killing the domestic cultures, especially if the immigrants are violent and refuse to follow the laws of the land - in my country they cause a lot of trouble so violent expulsion comes off as a natural response. There is an old saying that in a single country there should be no more than one king, one army and one religion - having separate religious groups treated specially and protected as white bears naturally invites the double-standard policy: I am not allowed to say "white pride" in fear of being labeled as a Nazi, but "black pride" is totally fine - either everyone faces same treatment or you risk developing a victim culture where certain groups terrorize others. The same thing goes for the "N" word: black rappers use it and hoard millions, others use it and they face a lynch mob as well as public humiliation. I grow dull at the entire thing... I am a moderate pacifist, which can be summarized as follows: "cool as long as you don't endanger me".  People living in the West, this is all purely from the things I saw/read on the net, so everything is subjective, no hard feelings I hope.
WoD is a world for escapism, but the thing that drew me most to it was not the taboo, violence and etc, but the romanticizing of the struggle, of the duality and dealing with loss. I don't prefer having random stories of frenzied vamps or taboo topics for their own sake, but a deeper and more immersive story that deals with real problems that you face as you "change" existences.

People of the western Balkans are molded by experience of perpetual war, ethnic strife and economic hardships. Such conditions inevitably create societies and people that are inherently cynical and suspicious. Always on your guard mentality is deeply rooted in these lands, partly a legacy of centuries we spent under the brutal Ottoman rule. As such, our thought patterns are fairly different when compared to people of Western Europe or America, who have not experienced war or any great tragedy on their own soil since WW2.

Dobro receno brate. :D

+1 From me.
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Offline Barabbah

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2018, 08:11:34 PM »
While we have resurrected the topic.... Here the situation is slowly growing even worse. I am at home and I need to take the train and go to Trieste, the city where is my university, but I had to postpone a week later it in fear of the manifestation of casapound (one of the big neo fascist parties here) who somehow they managed to put the city under a lockdown of the army (I've heard there even will be snipers all over the town). All of this in the same town mussolini itself proclaimed the racial laws.
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2018, 09:35:26 PM »

Dobro receno brate. :D

+1 From me.

Teško možemo staviti Srpski i Hrvatski narod pod "braću". Generalno gledajući, imamo drastično različita mišljenja o zadnjih 100-150 godina. 

Svejedno, drago mi je da ima nekoga sa ovih prostora na forumu, stoga +1 za tebe  :smile:
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Offline Malkav

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2018, 11:05:34 PM »
English please. Otherwise I'm forced to think you're saying "Heil Hitler" or something like that.
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Online deicide

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2018, 04:51:46 AM »
Teško možemo staviti Srpski i Hrvatski narod pod "braću". Generalno gledajući, imamo drastično različita mišljenja o zadnjih 100-150 godina. 

Svejedno, drago mi je da ima nekoga sa ovih prostora na forumu, stoga +1 za tebe  :smile:
At the first glance, it's seems really awkward to consider Serbians and Croatians "brothers" after that war, but if you think of Cain and Abel... Indeed they are, but not all brothers and sisters are on good terms with each other.

Greets from Ukraine, by the way.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 04:54:44 AM by deicide »

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Ultra-right wing in the context of WoD and pop culture
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2018, 05:13:35 AM »
Where I live (the us) ultra right wing isn’t talked about much unless you are on the Internet. This is concerning due to the ultra left wing being praised and defended at points when they are two sides of the same coin. ANTIFA is an anti fascist organization who I would consider to be fascists. They can be and often have been incredibly violent towards right wing protesters. I would explain everything in more detail but its quite complicated and i don’t have time for it right now. So I will leave it at this.

You sure got that right.  Here's something else:  the progressives (what liberals were once called in the USA) had the same philosophical heroes as did the fascists.   

 

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