collapse

Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)  (Read 633 times)

Offline silky

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Reputation: 0
The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« on: September 07, 2017, 06:50:40 PM »
So obviously, no, there was never any Antediluvian at all.

What I wonder is, what exactly was the deal with the mummy it contained? Is it animate? Or is it just a totally lifeless corpse that Jack talks to as though it's animate for whatever reason?



Offline silky

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Reputation: 0
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2017, 03:27:08 AM »
Well of course, I doubt the sarcophagus would have even been able to physically contain an awakened Antediluvian to begin with. They'd have mashed it like a potato.

Offline Wesp5

  • Administratrix
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 4539
  • Reputation: 820
  • Unofficial Patcher
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2017, 08:57:47 AM »
The scene in itself would seem to justify Camarilla's thesis about the non-existence of the Antediluvians (at least in this case).

From the description of Prof. Johansen Messerach could have been the ghoul of a female vampire called Lamastu: "The goddess on the outside of the sarcophagus was Lamastu. In Assyrian myth, Lamastu was an evil demoness who preyed on humans. Many people cite her as the mother of vampire myth, and..."
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 08:59:38 AM by Wesp5 »

Offline IanW

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
  • Reputation: 19
  • Onyx Path Community Manager
    • Onyx Path Publishing
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2017, 07:29:09 PM »
Lamastu was mentioned by Beckett as being "a Lilith figure."

The Book of Genesis describes the creation of humans twice: 1:27 mentions that Man and Woman were created simultaneously, while 2:7-2:22 suggests they were created separately (Eve from Adam's rib). In Jewish tradition, these were two separate events: the first woman, created with Adam, was Lilith, who was exiled from Eden for refusing to be subservient to Adam. After leaving Eden she gave birth to all sorts of monsters and is also known as the Mother of Demons.

In the Book of Nod, Caine finds his way to Lilith once he's been exiled. She takes him in, nourishes him with her blood, and tries to teach him the magics she has learned. Through Caine's curse, her magic is twisted into the vampiric Disciplines.

Just as the Book of Nod is sort of "the Bible story retold from Caine's perspective," so is Revelations of the Dark Mother a retelling of the Book of Nod from Lilith's perspective. She was the first to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, putting her among the ranks of the other Elohim. She was the serpent who enticed Eve to eat the fruit of the latter tree. Anyway, long story short, she was exiled, started her own garden, taught Caine for a time, and then later her garden and children were destroyed by the Antediluvians. So she (and by extension Lilith's cultists, the Bahari) have a bone to pick with the childer of Caine. It's a whole thing.

Lilith's not quite a vampire, not quite a shapeshifter, and not quite a mage, but she has elements of all of them, and can be said to be the mother of all three (at least, if you listen to her followers).

Curiously, Strauss has a painting of Lilith in his chambers...
Ian A. A. Watson
Onyx Path Community Manager
VTM portal - Tabletop primer

Online The Shadow Man

  • Angel of Darkness
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 11
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2017, 02:36:03 PM »
The Book of Genesis describes the creation of humans twice: 1:27 mentions that Man and Woman were created simultaneously, while 2:7-2:22 suggests they were created separately (Eve from Adam's rib). In Jewish tradition, these were two separate events: the first woman, created with Adam, was Lilith, who was exiled from Eden for refusing to be subservient to Adam. After leaving Eden she gave birth to all sorts of monsters and is also known as the Mother of Demons.

A little note. Almost all right in this post. Surely Lilith is a figure from the Jewish cabalistic and Talmudic traditions, but there is no evidence that is bound to the writing of the Bible. The very first Juidaism was not a true monotheism, but an henoteism (so, the Hebraic God above all other deites).

I don't know an awful lot about this subject but I believe it was a common thing around that time to accept the gods of others as true albeit as subservient or lesser than your own deity.  Then again Christianity has 'demoted' gods of other religions into angels, fairies and demons but I suppose that's a whole other topic.

Online The Shadow Man

  • Angel of Darkness
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 11
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 09:41:56 PM »
I don't know an awful lot about this subject but I believe it was a common thing around that time to accept the gods of others as true albeit as subservient or lesser than your own deity.

Not in Hebraism or Christianism.

Well I was mainly talking about before Christianity. Is that Hebraism as in Hebrews?

Of course many Pagan gods were 'demoted' to demon or fairy status by Christians, but that's not really the same thing.

I've heard that after the Roman Empire became Christian, at least some of the Roman gods were made into angels to smooth the transition as it were, though this is something I've only heard once, so I'm not sure of if that's true.

Offline Malkav

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1335
  • Reputation: 368
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2017, 08:44:18 AM »
I don't know an awful lot about this subject but I believe it was a common thing around that time to accept the gods of others as true albeit as subservient or lesser than your own deity.

Not in Hebraism or Christianism.
Most religions, except for the jewish and therefore also christian and islam, had several gods anyway. Some cultures even deified their kings. So there was no problem in accepting the gods of other countries.
Co Author of Camarilla Edition Mod

Offline Saphrax

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Reputation: 8
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 09:58:33 AM »
Okay, so I tried to approach Messarach from a historian point of view, and I have expressed my thoughts on him on this forum some time ago.

On the topic of the sarcophagus:
Based on what I know about Assyrian history, I think it's really not that far fetched that a burial of an Assyrian king was found in Ankara - keeping in mind that in reality there is really next to zero chance that a burial of an Assyrian king will be discovered in Ankara, but since this is the World of Darkness, which is only 'slightly' different from our world (not counting all the supernatural existing, mind you), it could be possible, and I have some data which could support it.

For starters, it's a fact, that the territory of Ankara was never part of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, but it was in it's sphere of influence. We know of an Assyrian king, Sargon II, who even led a military campaign into the land of Tabal, a land in Eastern-Central-Turkey, not far from Ankara, where he was defeated, and his remains were lost. So I think in real life, Sargon II is closest to VtmB's Messarach, if we assume that the former was also buried in Anatolia (provided he even had a burial at all, and his enemies didn't just throw his corpse into a ditch somewhere :P ).

An other interesting fact, is that none of the burials of Assyrian kings were ever found (as far as I know), so they should be in unlikely places (okay, probably not as unlikely as in territories not controlled by Assyrians, but who knows? :) ).

So in short: adding an extra Assyrian ruler to the fictional world of WoD, who was buried in a land close to the Assyrian Empire, after maybe a failed military campaign, or for some other reason, IMO is just fine.

Also, I'd like to point out that I really like it how the decorations on the sarcophagus look like real Assyrian reliefs, however the mummy of Messarach shown at the end really could have used a beard. :D

One more thing, the Ankh on his attire seems a bit out of place, since it is from Egypt. Okay, okay, I know it's actually a symbol for VtMB too, and that particular symbol seems like the Camarilla's ankh, but still...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:13:53 AM by Saphrax »

Offline FleshArtist

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
  • Reputation: 12
  • Infernalist
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 06:39:33 AM »
Quote
One more thing, the Ankh on his attire seems a bit out of place, since it is from Egypt. Okay, okay, I know it's actually a symbol for VtMB too, and that particular symbol seems like the Camarilla's ankh, but still...
The roots of the plots and schemes of the elders run deep indeed...

Offline Raving_Neonate

  • Rave.Period.
  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
  • Reputation: 11
  • Raving somewhere....
Re: The Sarcophagus occupant (spoilers, natch)
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 10:46:53 AM »
I always found it interesting that Troika chose the Mesopotamian deity Lamastu as the "protagonist" of the design. A number of deities "traveled" from one culture to another, changing names / characteristics and their appearance. However, the peculiar notion is that Lilith managed to keep most of the characteristics through all of these transitions. Familiar:


 
The meaning of elegance is not to be noticed, it is to be remembered.

 

* Game Files