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Offline Barabbah

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Reimagining the world of darkness
« on: September 26, 2018, 04:43:25 PM »
How would you change the rules? I'll start:
Each clan has an unique discipline (and only one) and each vampire can choose after the embrace two more disciplines from the common ones. Then for learning new disciplines you just have to receive teachings from someone who knows them at a level high enough and if it's one of another clan exclusive you have to took a longer and proper apprenticeship (or you cannot raise points without being with a teacher of that discipline.
Also I would merge similar clans (maybe separating them as different bloodlines)
What do you think? What would do you do instead?


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Offline Gossamer

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 09:54:17 PM »
Clan Tremere would be non-existent. :cometome:

Offline Barabbah

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 01:37:07 PM »
Clan Tremere would be non-existent. :cometome:

? Why?
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Offline IanW

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 02:13:07 PM »
How would you change the rules? I'll start:
Each clan has an unique discipline (and only one) and each vampire can choose after the embrace two more disciplines from the common ones. Then for learning new disciplines you just have to receive teachings from someone who knows them at a level high enough and if it's one of another clan exclusive you have to took a longer and proper apprenticeship (or you cannot raise points without being with a teacher of that discipline.
Also I would merge similar clans (maybe separating them as different bloodlines)
What do you think? What would do you do instead?

So basically Vampire: The Requiem, then.
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Offline Barabbah

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 02:20:09 PM »
So basically Vampire: The Requiem, then.

I don't know Requiem and Masquerade differences except there are only 5 clans in Requiem. I didn't want to merge them this much, just the little differences!! :P
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Offline BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 09:22:45 PM »
This is an artifact of video game limitations. In the tabletop it was possible for characters to learn almost any discipline, but the video game restricts characters so that each bloodline provides a unique experience.

Offline BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2018, 02:15:10 PM »
So basically Vampire: The Requiem, then.

I don't know Requiem and Masquerade differences except there are only 5 clans in Requiem. I didn't want to merge them this much, just the little differences!! :P

I mentioned in the off-topic forum that I preferred a genuinely toolkit approach such as that seen in some indie tabletop games. Rein•Hagen’s Vampire is arbitrary restrictive in mine eyes.

All the vampires follow the same basic quasi-Ricean rules for vampirism with clan weakness to provide a false sense of variety. Disciplines are structured arbitrarily and miss a number of classic vampire powers while including new powers that are not emblematic of vampires in popular culture. It is not possible to emulate any given vampire fiction you read or watched without re-writing the rules yourself.

The clan structure works for video games, but not for a tabletop game where the GM makes up the world. In fact, I preferred the way that Bloodlust Shadowhunter structured its “dark arts” and tied them into its political reputation system. By gaining reputation with a certain faction, you will gain access to new vampire skills they specialize in.

Take extrasensory perception. In Vampire tabletop you must learn a bunch of filler powers like heightened senses, reading auras and psychometry before you can learn clairvoyance. In Bloodlust Shadowhunter clairvoyance is a simple skill you can learn from the start and provides a tiny degree of telekinesis.

Humanity, by far, is the mechanic I consider the clunkiest. It is supposed to measure your descent into vampirism and loss of humanity, but it is not well-integrated with the rest of the rules. I would have expected something more like the light/dark side mechanics in other games, where you can pursue humanity to be better at human tasks or vampirism to be better at vampire tasks but not both. In Vampire you can develop a laundry list of superpowers while maintaining high humanity even though having all those powers should realistically alter your worldview from human.

Then politics and paths of enlightenment get tacked on and ultimately the fluff and rules become a mess. The Vampire tabletop wants to do too many things at once and it does not do any of them well.

That is why I prefer the indie games which were written with a tighter focus on and rules that effectively support their themes. Monsterhearts by Buried Without Ceremony is better at the social metaphor, Urban Shadows by Magpie Games is better at politics and corruption, and Feed by Whistlepunk Games is better at the descent into monster.

In fact, Vampire 5e had several rules which seemed like they were copied from Feed. The hunger system, the level of satiation by feeding or killing, and such. IMO, Feed was still the better implementation of that.

The fluff like clan culture and such is a whole different can of worms that I will not try to tackle just yet.

Offline page

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2018, 12:52:14 PM »
I think there was too much lore, too many societies and groups and Clans were stereotyped too much. I'd rather have a setting that is subject to constant exploration, where not much is set in stone, where vampires/wolfs/mages etc. are more individual and unique. Sure, there might be parts of the world where it all operates like Camarilla and Anarchs observed in Bloodlines LA, but in the end of the day it all felt forced upon us too much.

Just some random thoughts. It wasn't ever a real issue for my group(s) because we always played variations on WoD and never took rulebooks too seriously. On the other hand it'd be nice to have this uncertainty and variety written as a core.

Offline BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 01:34:22 PM »
I think there was too much lore, too many societies and groups and Clans were stereotyped too much. I'd rather have a setting that is subject to constant exploration, where not much is set in stone, where vampires/wolfs/mages etc. are more individual and unique. Sure, there might be parts of the world where it all operates like Camarilla and Anarchs observed in Bloodlines LA, but in the end of the day it all felt forced upon us too much.

Just some random thoughts. It wasn't ever a real issue for my group(s) because we always played variations on WoD and never took rulebooks too seriously. On the other hand it'd be nice to have this uncertainty and variety written as a core.
Chronicles of Darkness tried to do this, but did not really follow through with it as much as it could have.

What it should have done was provide guidelines and random generation tables for making your own political and supernatural structures.

Offline deicide

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2018, 05:13:04 AM »
Agree, myself prefer a toolkit/guidelines approach, not critical though, it's always possible to take the story apart by yourself and reimagine if it contained anything useful in the first place. However, story generation tables are the big taboo to me, the very same reason for which D&D is infamous for.

So, in the end, I would prefer less but higher quality material against a huge collection of junk, no matter the form, toolkit or monolithic, a polished core + a few supplements.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 07:16:56 AM by deicide »

Offline Barabbah

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 09:38:17 AM »
I would prefer less but higher quality material against a huge collection of junk, no matter the form, toolkit or monolithic, a polished core + a few supplements.

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Offline deicide

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2018, 07:40:50 AM »
The form does not matter in a tabletop game that does not require programming or modding skills. Everything could be set on stone by the canon, still nothing prevents anyone to twist the canon itself into anything to their liking, so, in fact, a tabletop RPG is a toolkit. Every self-respecting DM/GM/ST/etc was always a bit of a game designer and writer. I have an impression that the most people here have forgotten that cRPG it's not.

Arguing over the form as malleable is pointless while the there is so little content to actually use and rejects like Tzimisce clan novel are being allowed to hit the shelves. It's exactly like I have forgotten to enable the search results filter (like, -no_yaoi -no_male_pregnancy) on a fanfiction resource.

On Humanity, cannot agree more, it's the worst from the core rules.
Myself prefer it as an RP meter (no Conscience stat) and a constant bonus to Self-control, so a high Humanity character will auto-succeed against the most of generic treats unless with situational penalty or low on blood, for the reason that these actions will be nearly unthinkable of for such a person. On the other hand, a low Humanity character still have a chance to avoid an infamous frenzy spin by keeping Self-control high enough. So, it's entirely possible to stabilize a character even on 1 Humanity, although could be risky at times.
And, no exuses for killing by feeling bad about it. What's done cannot be undone, -1.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 09:57:58 AM by deicide »

Offline Rubinia

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2018, 04:09:11 PM »
I'd love to have (in kind of meta-data expierience) Disciplines and upper-dots points on equal EXP cost; as the costs tend to be drasctically hight, it's no fun at all to hoard EXPs and at the end it's like: the chronicle is almost over at the time you get at the dreamt higher lvl of some power.

My claim is to change the Disciplines powers levels. I mean, some of the 5+ lvls are wonderfull to have, and most of the time are out of the reach. Quite opposite, some of them are pointless or too weak for their hight rank! Good example: Viscitude "Acid Blood" lvl 7th, which is cool in xeno-way, but rather in terms of show-must-go-on-effectivness than real fight-or-crowd-control potential.
So I'd gathered up all the Disc. powers, take a good look into them, and divide them into 5 categories so that each and every playable low-generation vamp could go and fetch them without diabelaire. I'd put the mass-effects in the 4th or 5th tier, with some dependance of their effective powerfullity. One-person or low-effect charms will go on 2th and 3th, and the most auxiliary ones at the lvl one.

I dislike how Discplines range of some clans are too simmilar, eg. Gangrels and Ravnos. I'd put some more colour, more difference. I tend to dislike dots-busting Disc. (Potence, Celerity, Fortitude) as they do nothing spectacular in the in-game terms, just give the player a handfull of dice. I've learnt they can be extremely valuable if you want the job done, but in vampire air-and-magic fall far behind, say, simple Presence or red-eyed Protean lvl 1.
So noone should have more than one dot-buster since the start. Thus Brujahs are clearly disadvantaged.

And well, the idea of random-chosing the disciplines is quite amusing. Like, when I chose a Gangrel I know what to expect - it's a bit boring. If they had their (like someone basically mentioned it) flag-discipline (Protean, and Dementation for Malks, and Obfuscate for Nossies, and Chimerstry for Ravvies, and Viscie for Tsims, and Serpentis for Snakes, and Dominate for Vantrues and similarly so on) AND teh other two disciplines to be rolled (or chosen) from a bunch of possible choices (like, Animalism, Fortitude, Celerity, Obfucscate for Gangrels - I've vaguely remember the issue of City/Rural Gangrels as variations of the Basic Gangrel). Thus when facing a Gangrel, you can't be all certain what exactly he's capable of, even if he's freshly-born one. I understand in-game one normally can have a broad choice of disciplines he have learnt in un-life, but the monotone starting-field is a bit boring. And I'd love to have more open choice when I love Obfucate, other than simply Malk/Nossie/Caitif.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 04:11:21 PM by Rubinia »
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Offline BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Reimagining the world of darkness
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2018, 09:33:37 PM »
The Feed RPG I mentioned uses freeform trait descriptions rather than forcing everything into a hierarchy. It was originally made in response to WoD’s shortcomings so it looks fairly to convert over to. I tried that myself, but it only reminded me how sameness the clans feel.

It provides fairly detailed and diverse guidelines for structuring superpowers on your own. It provides some sample settings to provide examples as well.

If you are interested, the book itself is available for free.

 

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