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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines  (Read 8672 times)

Offline midnight

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2018, 10:43:58 pm »
Plus one from me.
It is an interesting observation regarding the character, but as a Byronic hero he needs to have a reedeeming quality about him, but I cannot find it. He needs to be at least merciful or remorseful, but in the game we clearly see that he is not. The only act of clemency was a calculated action on his part.

True. But to be honest there are quite a few Byronic type characters who, whilst they may have redeeming features or some positive points, this doesn't necessarily save them.
They are meant to to tortured souls too - aware and realists about their villainy and not necessarily apologetic. I personally do get the impression that LaCroix is such a character... but to be honest there's not a great deal to go on. He is evidently an insecure, uncertain person, who is shaky at best in his hold over his position. We may see (as previous posters on this thread have) that he is cynical and jaded about other Kindred - and therefore the Camarilla itself - because he understands that it's a manipulative, hierarchical system that checks against realisation of independence and real personal power. He seems to be just placed in his position, but will be swept aside with little thought at any moment, even by his own backers. That's why he's desperate to get the Sarcophagus - he's afraid and insecure. In that way he could be seen to be sympathetic and tragic... if one is inclined to make such an attempt. To be honest, when I see the game from the start again after time away, I sometimes feel like I'm being confronted by what an arrogant, petty and mean creature LaCroix is - because I've softened him a little bit in my mind. But, personally, I don't think taking a bit of a Byronic take on him is a misreading - the materials for such a character are there. It's just that the execution of the characterisation in game could be said to get a bit shoehorned towards the end, so I'd just like to see more light and shade.
Actually, on the point of his redeeming features (or lack of). He does seem to have a commitment to order and doing what's best for the greater good. This desire is tangled up with his need for confirmation of his superiority and need for power to soothe his fears of insecurity and lack of control. It seems to me that he's contemptuous of hypocrisy; sycophants etc, so I wonder if he does has some aspiration to nobler intentions and ideals.
I don't think he's just acting when he talks about the burden of responsibility that comes with power and the desire to make a good job of his position. This is the good point about him imo. But, it gets screwed up and twisted by his insecurities, fears, and negative character flaws. and so the fall is inevitable for him, and even potentially tragic - if you don't completely hate him all through the game that is!
He doesn't seem remorseful though. Perhaps that's the reason that he can't work through his problems. He needs to self reflect and experience some self realisation to do that - and, fatally, he doesn't seem willing to. Perhaps, if using the Byronic archetype, you could say that he's a failed one. He possesses the typical hallmarks, but lacks acceptance of his own issues, so can't reach that admirable trait - sense of justice and high minded ideals -  that characters of that archetype, for all their faults, have. on some level he wants to, but cannot because his demons get the better of him.

Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2018, 07:09:02 am »
Byron wasn't the first to invent a character like that, but the writer to bring it into public imagination with Childe Harold's Pilgrimage, not least because of fandom around his own person.
I should also add that he did not intend to usurp inventor's laurels but purposefully used his own superstar status for popularisation of such a writing style with flawed many-sided heroes and the lack of universal good/evil/right/wrong, in which task he had succeeded the most certainly. The most of his own characters were intended more as textbook examples for further writers, so he wrote them as over the top as possible in order to illustrate the theory clearer, resulting in them being a bit, if one could apply such a epithet, flatter (but interesting nevertheless) in comparison with more practical examples before and after him.
Likewise, orchestrated his own heroic death scene using the said status and incoming demise, in order to attract an international attention into the Greek cause. Quite a chessmaster on his own right, which contrasts with the hotheaded and impulsive image that was, to some extent, true, in a peculiar way.

Therefore, I would say that lord Byron was the epitome of Byronic hero himself.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 08:12:16 am by deicide »
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2018, 08:32:57 am »
Despite his scheming and deceitful nature, I would argue that LaCroix is one of the kindred that has a high humanity rating: everything he does or says has a deep echo of a life before the curse of Caine and in that light he can resemble a Byronic hero. He is also one of the characters that prefers to have innocent bystanders spared (Elizabeth Dane and general approach), although a personal dispute with the hunters (another example of humanity in his character that has a personal connection with one of them, Bach) sees him in a less empathetic light. I really cannot see him as an antagonist, rather as the second protagonist.
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Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2018, 07:36:50 pm »
It appears to be remnants of his former self rather than an actual humanity, he's upholding, trying at least, the same life priciples that he believed into despite not feeling anything for those people any more. Exactly the reason I've thought that LaCroix used to be genuinely decent sometimes ago.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 07:39:13 pm by deicide »
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Offline tarulu

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2018, 07:52:29 pm »
Despite his scheming and deceitful nature, I would argue that LaCroix is one of the kindred that has a high humanity rating: everything he does or says has a deep echo of a life before the curse of Caine and in that light he can resemble a Byronic hero. He is also one of the characters that prefers to have innocent bystanders spared (Elizabeth Dane and general approach), although a personal dispute with the hunters (another example of humanity in his character that has a personal connection with one of them, Bach) sees him in a less empathetic light. I really cannot see him as an antagonist, rather as the second protagonist.
i have to agree here,the real antagonist in my mind is jack.

Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2018, 08:10:08 pm »
Jack may be one step behind that part of the desk, but still someone's playing him from behind in turn looking from larger perspecive. The antagonist is the game itself, the system.
I mean, he wasn't being manipulated (by Bloodlines canon) at the moment, but such an actions will attract an attention for sure and multiple parties will either try to use these events for their advantage or take a player's seat, putting a hand on him.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 08:25:57 pm by deicide »
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Offline tarulu

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2018, 08:15:04 pm »
Jack may be one step behind that part of the desk, but still someone's playing him from behind in turn looking from larger perspecive. The antagonist is the game itself, the system.
thats a good way to put it too

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2018, 10:04:29 pm »
Jack may be one step behind that part of the desk, but still someone's playing him from behind in turn looking from larger perspecive.

In my opinion this is the Cabbie, aka Caine, who wants to test how his childers would react to something like the sarcophagus turning up. Like would they work together or fight over it, and I think the result is rather obvious...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 02:00:55 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2018, 10:36:44 pm »
Or, more precisely, not manipulates him but orders to test if his childer are ready to begin transforming their game into collaborative (so he, in fact, supplies them with fresh resources in the form of the Fledging), or rather they prefer their old, zero-sum one. The latter had proven to be the only one who actually was.
The plot has some similarities with Baldur's Gate, save we aren't lord of Murder's direct child, but, more likely, his protege. Though I consider the former still plausible, which will explain why we're so OP and why have gained such a taste for murder so quickly. Indeed they never knew what hit them - Caine's childe.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 10:55:21 pm by deicide »
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Offline Aloysius

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2018, 01:41:37 pm »
The cabbies, for they are several, and the pseudo Caine aren't the same fellows. And the pseudo Caine is a random pal of Jack, there were never any Caine and antideluvians, these myths are bullshit.

But since I can tell you aren't convinced, that's it, I am removing pseudo Caine out of my game.
Bye, bye, ambiguous kindred with a middle-eastern accent, welcome, random kindred with a generic model and different dialogs. Mh ha ha ha

Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2018, 06:26:14 am »
Whatever the hell you want, turn Caine into a woman (guess Tim Kain would burst out laughing in a special manner), transform it into a Werewolf game, that called "the golden rule". However, shoving your interpretation into everyone's face like a word of god is a helluva way to advertise the mod ahead of the release.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 06:32:44 am by deicide »
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Offline Aloysius

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2018, 01:04:42 pm »
Somebody took my bait... No I didn't do it, I just felt like saying it to bother Wesp, who rudely didn't took the bait, and whoever believe the type to be Caine just because of a few internal names in the game files.
It would be tempting though, but I already have something better in store, hm, not that I would bet it's gonna be loved by someone who want to make this fellow into Cain but I won't say apart that I didn't change what's already there for him.

I never liked Jack's random puppeter, but I like Lacroix, maybe he should be a woman?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 02:01:13 pm by Wesp5 »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2018, 01:59:51 pm »
I just felt like saying it to bother Wesp, who rudely didn't took the bait, and whoever believe the type to be Caine just because of a few internal names in the game files.

Of course I am not sure, but there is more to it than the dlg file name of the Cabbie. Just listen to what Rosa on the beach or the Malkavian player himself say about the Cabbie!

Offline tarulu

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2018, 03:48:22 pm »
there is also caine in credits.
in game sense he is surely caine

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2018, 04:58:25 pm »
there is also caine in credits.

I can't find that, Tim Cain was a real developer at Troika.

 

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