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Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2018, 11:41:19 AM »
That is extra nice, as he would be more dependent on the partner, less probable to succesfully manipulate and the most certainly less dangerous in the case of betrayal. If he was that cool in everything, he would not need any help in the first place.
LA had already reached its quota on competent intrigants and could employ an administrator for a change. He's taking pride in the job, which means he's not completely rotten from inside.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 07:20:01 PM by deicide »

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2018, 01:45:25 AM »
Aurelian said:  "Over the years since the Bloodlines have been released, I have been listening to various people who damn LaCroix for his scheming and manipulation and at the same time praise Jack as some paragon of honesty and truth."  (Stupid quote link was missing :) )

My thoughts too. 

Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2018, 12:26:06 AM »
Though he is a chessmaster (for I'm sure that these chess emails are of his writing), he is genuinely benevolent towards the Fledgling, wishes them luck and offers a place among the Anarch Movement, which is from where his charm from.
By the way, chess were immensely popular during his era, among military and pirates in particular, so I'm convinced that he was quite a player.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 12:40:22 AM by deicide »

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2018, 03:18:45 PM »
Jack is certainly an iconic character in his own right with his jokes and fourth-wall breaking puns, but in terms of character design he is stagnant - not much character development. A part of me considers him just a necessary antagonist or a mandatory polar opposite to LaCroix... out of all characters in the game or WoD for that matter, Jack is not among the first to pop up whenever someone mentions Bloodlines or when I want to play the game. Jack is cool and all that, but still Bloodlines without its Napoleon would be a "parched experience".
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Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2018, 12:41:17 AM »
Jack is certainly an iconic character in his own right with his jokes and fourth-wall breaking puns, but in terms of character design he is stagnant - not much character development. A part of me considers him just a necessary antagonist or a mandatory polar opposite to LaCroix... out of all characters in the game or WoD for that matter, Jack is not among the first to pop up whenever someone mentions Bloodlines or when I want to play the game. Jack is cool and all that, but still Bloodlines without its Napoleon would be a "parched experience".

Every good story needs a punching bag.  Jack isn't well developed - very true - but he is in character with the lore.  He manipulates you and puts you in danger without real care - hoping you make it but not really caring as you are basically a pawn.  Not the same way as Jihad but a pawn of jack just the same.  Both are really needed IMO to keep this story appealing. 

Offline Aurelian

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2018, 01:44:23 PM »
Though he is a chessmaster (for I'm sure that these chess emails are of his writing), he is genuinely benevolent towards the Fledgling, wishes them luck and offers a place among the Anarch Movement, which is from where his charm from.

I would not label Jack "genuinely benevolent", he plays his own game of Jyhad brilliantly.

Temper us in fire, and we grow stronger. When we suffer, we survive.

Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2018, 04:48:32 PM »
Our survival is not necessary for his plan to succeed, on the contrary, the new powerful player could be unpredictable in the long term, derailing plans, dangerous for him personally or even to Anarch Movement should they turn on him out of vengeance or switch sides. Still, he considers it fair a game if people are supplied with necessary information to make the right decision and could get something in return. I think that he expects the Fledgling won't hold a grudge against him.

Indeed, that's quite pragmatic, but still decent if compared against usual VtM style. Probably, as benevolent as such a person could get.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 05:12:40 PM by deicide »

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2018, 02:56:08 AM »
Kind of like Bertrum - except he's honest about it. 

Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2018, 07:52:36 AM »
Neat comparison, save Bertie could afford this working as a mercenary, while Jack still has to care about keeping appearances. Both aren't afraid to lose the game.

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2018, 09:02:21 PM »
Still Bertram favors the Cam, since it affords him protection - he did reference his sire and clan in that regard, but still in my opinion he serves as a world-introduction character more than anything else. He could be expanded upon with additional quests, pinpointing a bit more about his past and how his unlife came to be.
Jack, yeah, he is pretty much a loose cannon, working mostly to achieve his own ends that in my opinion happen to align with the ones that Anarchs cultivate... depose the Cam, seed chaos. That is why the cannon resolution of LA from the books that culminates with the Jenna Cross movement has some merit behind it, especially when Jack is concerned.
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Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2018, 08:04:48 AM »
It's curious that LaCroix perfectly matches the classic depiction of Magician/Charlatan, card 1 in Tarot, youthful, childlike and somewhat effeminate, even Mercurio and Chunk suspected him in unusual orientation, for which (or lack thereof) the Tarot character is known for. In Tarot card game, the Magician plays a role similar to the Fool (card 0), could replace any card, yet with a weakness, could be captured unlike the damn Fool who is invincible until his designated purpose is fulfilled, which is exactly what happens in the ending.
I think they wanted to suggest his potential for transformation and development akin to the Fledgling. Both could be anything, but LaCroix is weaker, more vulnerable, in need for protection, in contrast to the epitomic Fool, the protagonist, who has nothing to lose but his own life.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 08:22:19 AM by deicide »

Offline midnight

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2018, 10:08:08 PM »
It's curious that LaCroix perfectly matches the classic depiction of Magician/Charlatan, card 1 in Tarot, youthful, childlike and somewhat effeminate, even Mercurio and Chunk suspected him in unusual orientation, for which (or lack thereof) the Tarot character is known for. In Tarot card game, the Magician plays a role similar to the Fool (card 0), could replace any card, yet with a weakness, could be captured unlike the damn Fool who is invincible until his designated purpose is fulfilled, which is exactly what happens in the ending.
I think they wanted to suggest his potential for transformation and development akin to the Fledgling. Both could be anything, but LaCroix is weaker, more vulnerable, in need for protection, in contrast to the epitomic Fool, the protagonist, who has nothing to lose but his own life.

That's an interesting perspective. Did not think of that.
I agree that LaCroix and the Fledgling are a mirror of each other in some sense though. There's a reason why we see the most of him than any other character. And, the most development and variation. The other characters are fairly static. Interesting enough, but just there for us to react to. LaCroix however, actually has depth. And, in a funny way, he is very human... in the sense that to be human is not to be 'nice', but to have light and shade; emotional turmoil etc and he's got plenty of that.
It's an interesting thing that he's presented as somewhat effeminate. Or at least other characters react to him in that way that he's ''a little different'' according to Chunk. That's ironic as we might understand it as he's a vampire - so clearly there's something a bit off or uncanny about him compared to a normal human... But, evidently that's not quite what Chunk had in mind lol. I'm not so sure that it's meant to be taken all that deeply; or, as an insight into his orientation or anything. Rather, just that he is regarded as kind of weak an ineffectual; lacking in potency somehow. Actually, as an aside, that Chunk character reminds me of Sheriff J W Pepper in Roger Moore's Bond films. Overestimates his experience and is a bit a stereotype of American insularity.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2018, 11:57:51 AM »
Actually, as an aside, that Chunk character reminds me of Sheriff J W Pepper in Roger Moore's Bond films. Overestimates his experience and is a bit a stereotype of American insularity.

Exactly, well spotted :)!

Offline midnight

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2018, 07:19:45 PM »
On another note, I think LaCroix is compelling being that he more or less adheres to a Byronic Hero archetype.
It fits quite nicely I feel with his background origin of being born circa. 1790s, and embraced in the early 19th century - perfectly in that Romantic literary period. And also when we see vampire literature 'proper' develop in the form of Polidori's short story The Vampyre, which is supposedly inspired by Byron (Polidori was his physician). Apparently it was something of a cause célèbre at the time because it was thought to be Byron's work. There were several stage adaptations and an opera  and a sequel written in French soon after publication, all occurring in the 1820s. I find it funny to head canon LaCroix's reaction to this lol. Given that the literary archetype of the vampire came up at the same time as he first became one. I personally love the synchronicity of that, and it seems almost intentional. it adds layers to why he is the best vampire character in the game for me.
But in any case, the Byronic archetype is definitely fitting for him. Byron wasn't the first to invent a character like that, but the writer to bring it into public imagination with Childe Harold's Pilgrimage, not least because of fandom around his own person.
I's always thought this, but the descriptors on the wiki page for the archetype,  are uncanny when applied to LaCroix. Lord Macaulay defines the character as "a man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection".

And from Byron's The Corsair
''He knew himself a villain—but he deem'd
The rest no better than the thing he seem'd;
And scorn'd the best as hypocrites who hid
Those deeds the bolder spirit plainly did.
He knew himself detested, but he knew
The hearts that loath'd him, crouch'd and dreaded too.
Lone, wild, and strange, he stood alike exempt
From all affection and from all contempt.''

This sounds so much like LaCroix; it could have been written about him.
As an aside, it's not surprising that there are a good amount of LaCroix fangirls about, as the Byronic anti-hero always captivates people in that way.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 07:21:32 PM by midnight »

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2018, 09:25:47 PM »
Plus one from me.
It is an interesting observation regarding the character, but as a Byronic hero he needs to have a reedeeming quality about him, but I cannot find it. He needs to be at least merciful or remorseful, but in the game we clearly see that he is not. The only act of clemency was a calculated action on his part.
Me: "I love lollipops!"
WoD ST: "We don't allow lollipops, because we are too dark!"

 

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