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Author Topic: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines  (Read 4010 times)

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« on: April 03, 2018, 04:03:35 PM »
Dear kindred...

You either love him or hate him (or both), but none can argue that Sebastian LaCroix is not one of the most, if not the only, developed character in the game. You see him from the beginning to the very end in all ranges of emotions and positions, both good and bad, but there is something in his demeanor that makes me fond of him despite his earnest efforts to shove the PC into death with his "one-man army" missions. I would even dare to say that he rates high in the humanity department, since he is acting, in essence like a human, has a drive and unlike Jack, he is not openly advocating self-defense. Maybe that is "hardcoded" in him by the clan philosophy or the principles of the Cam, but I find him to be exquisitely humane unlike most characters that you meet in the game, maybe except VV (although the resolution of her Hot Stripper Action mission could mitigate that impression, but still it would be fun if some of the modders could add a different conclusion to it, to keep in more with VV's character and philosophy).

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Offline Rubinia

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 05:50:47 PM »
The whole idea of degree in humanity is somewhat tricky and most of the time I don't quite understand it nor see the difference clearly. Among all game characters I love the Jack most, even if he is presumably more manipulative than LaCroix himself.

Our Cammy Prince is foremost clumsy manipulator. He reveals his emotions and thouths quite often and is far from expresionless corpse (would be quite accurate for vampire, after all!)
When the Fledgeling says it encountered Beckett after Warehose, Sebby reacts with genuine surprise and quickly covers it with 'Yes, of course Beckett already said hello to me, the so powerfull reign of L.A.'-like line which is totally not convincing.

It can be heart-warming. LaCroix is likeable sometimes, somewhat, and if there was a way to support him all way long and save him from his obsession I'd do it. Shove off the Sheriff and co-rule with the Prince forward on.
"Having created something so extraordinary one would die happy, if one died."

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Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2018, 10:22:08 PM »
Probably was used to napoleonic meritocracy too much and still did not get the kindred neocon system, when no matter how hard you try, you worth nothing. The lack of appreciation for his efforts is exactly what rendered him like we see in the game. Too bad convincing him to drop that wild goose chase isn't possible and one of the best characters in the history of CRPGs ended up being a hate sink.
That Napolein thing (c) is the reason I've thought defecting to LA Anarchs would have been a better option for him.
The patient was a young lady whom I was loath to disfigure (c)

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2018, 10:35:34 AM »
Probably was used to napoleonic meritocracy too much and still did not get the kindred neocon system, when no matter how hard you try, you worth nothing. The lack of appreciation for his efforts is exactly what rendered him like we see in the game. Too bad convincing him to drop that wild goose chase isn't possible and one of the best characters in the history of CRPGs ended up being a hate sink.
That Napolein thing (c) is the reason I've thought defecting to LA Anarchs would have been a better option for him.

I would like an alternative that could persuade LaCroix to drop the entire thing - he is a superb, developed character that really does not deserve all the flaming hate, especially since the master manipulator is Jack in fact, who drove you around the entire game. In a way, LaCroix is awfully honest and stays true to his own designs, it's just a bad spin-off since he bites the dust in the end.
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Offline The Shadow Man

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2018, 01:08:19 PM »
It's hard to feel sympathy for the guy who does everything he can do you in without getting his hands dirty. If it wasn't for Nines he'd have done you in, in the Courtroom or more accurately had the Sheriff do it. He sees you as an opportunity of course, someone to do some things he needs doing and if you do well it actually benefits him for the most part. The Camarilla is necessary for the survival of vampiric society however its only natural to want to protect yourself from Vampire Napoleon. LaCroix is very human-like but the Humanity system was always an idealized representation of humankind not a particularly realistic one.

Offline Gurkhal

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 08:51:29 AM »
Yeah, LaCroix is a pretty well developed character but I think that Nines is the same given how those two are essentially the two we get to interact the most with and who takes some interest in the player character.

But while it would be nice to talk LaCroix out of his madness I personally would like to get more time and dialogue with Strauss, as I like him more and would like to see that character more well developed.

Something that I am however very interested in is if Jack played LaCroix like Jack plays the PC? The reason I ask this is that there's this line from the suicide bomber LaCroix sends against you who says something that the character has betrayed him. And that has made me wonder a bit about what's going on.

Offline Rubinia

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2018, 12:43:41 PM »
I remember Prince saying that "Jack. The man is embodiment of chaos. In every town he arrives there is havoc soon after" or something like that, no wonder he is reluctant and unwelcoming towards Jack.

The other moment Strauss confesses that "Prince's obvious need for sarcophagus is dangerous, it may be exploited by his enemies". It is basically what happens: Jack tricks Prince into opening the deadly trap. Or fall into it, if it's more precise way to say.

I think Prince truerly grasps for power. He is somewhat bored with "primogens - bunch of vampires interested first and foremost in preserving their own hide" and his disregard for their cowardy selfishness is understandable.
I guess he intended to use Antediluvian (drink him or what?) to gain enough power to dispose of Anarchs, Queys and all political adversaries.

Remember how he finished off the Mercurio guy? He's quite well unmercifull towards subjects who fail. On the other hand Merc was 'just a ghoul' and ghould is for vampire as a kind of tool, easly disposable. Anyway, that was a darker side of Prince which makes me wary in all warmer feelings towards him (if only I remember).

Yet Gary and his Nossies scary me more - they keep human skeletones in their liar!
It's kidna interesting to compare LaCroix and Gary as they both are kind of Prince in their separate domains.
Also it's interesting how and when our Sebby met the Sheriff and how it came the Gorilla Guy is his servant now. I've seen an opinion the Sheriff is a Tsimitsie of some strange sort, while I always had a feeling he's a well-developed Gangrell (Animalism with spectral wolves that finished off the Sabbat raid at the beginning, Protean change into bat).
"Having created something so extraordinary one would die happy, if one died."

"One is the path of a man, straight and plain: the never ending Crossroads."

Offline The Shadow Man

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2018, 01:50:34 PM »
The other moment Strauss confesses that "Prince's obvious need for sarcophagus is dangerous, it may be exploited by his enemies". It is basically what happens: Jack tricks Prince into opening the deadly trap. Or fall into it, if it's more precise way to say.
Pretty exactly what happens yeah.

Quote
I think Prince truerly grasps for power. He is somewhat bored with "primogens - bunch of vampires interested first and foremost in preserving their own hide" and his disregard for their cowardy selfishness is understandable.
I guess he intended to use Antediluvian (drink him or what?) to gain enough power to dispose of Anarchs, Queys and all political adversaries.
Understandable yeah but his ambition has blinded him.

Quote
Yet Gary and his Nossies scary me more - they keep human skeletones in their liar!
It's kidna interesting to compare LaCroix and Gary as they both are kind of Prince in their separate domains.
To be fair, they built the Warrens right under a graveyard, there is a good chance they did 'make' these skeletons, simply repurposed them. Well Gary isn't Prince of anywhere, not by title anywhere, he has complete control over the Warrens for sure, he dosen't care what anyone else says about it.

Quote
Also it's interesting how and when our Sebby met the Sheriff and how it came the Gorilla Guy is his servant now. I've seen an opinion the Sheriff is a Tsimitsie of some strange sort, while I always had a feeling he's a well-developed Gangrell (Animalism with spectral wolves that finished off the Sabbat raid at the beginning, Protean change into bat).
Most likely he is a Nagloper, a Legacy (African bloodline) believed to be descent of the Tzmisce. Their disciplines are Animalism, Auspex and Vicissitude (same as the Tzmisce). The form the Sheriff shape shifts into, the Chiropteran Marauder, this ability is granted by the Discipline Vicissitude. I would have made Chiropteran Marauder, a Protean ability myself but I didn't write VtM at any stage so.

Offline Florence

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2018, 10:20:20 PM »
A shame to the clan.
Doesn't know how to behave.
~ To rule in blood is to rule in truth. ~

Offline DiamondBorne

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2018, 04:49:40 AM »
Quote
A shame to the clan.
Doesn't know how to behave.

He's secretly an Anarch at heart  :rofl: Interesting theory eh? He obviously does not like his clan at all when we brings up his rebirth topic, Clan Ventrue takes pride in their lineage and shows off to everybody at any given opportunity, Surprisingly he has few words for them which is uncharacteristic for Ventrue as mentioned earlier.

About a way to non-lethally deal with Lacroix. If we goes by the 'classic' root of Troika-Black Isle RPG style. We actually COULD convince Lacroix to stop being stupid for once. Namely with persuasion and intimidation 10, we bluntly ask that he stop sending an unstopable terminator with inexplicable stat boost to die repeatedly and instead 'acknowledge' our capabilities and ask our permission to form an alliance. With the 'better man' at the helm of the relationship. (us players obviously  :smile:) and Voila! Lacroix happy ending route.

It's not that impossible or borderline fan-fiction at all. Lacroix is an obviously smart man. But He's just too young and has to go against many veterans such as Jack and all the crafty primogens. Nines who's much younger but with field experience going through the roof. and no less than three unknown variables: the Kuei-Jin, Beckett and the Nosferatu. He just can't take all the heat and too mentally broke down to think straight. I for one, pity his situation.

Offline deicide

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2018, 07:54:14 PM »
That's how I always felt.
I think the best turning point would be after learning about his desperate alliance with Ming Xiao. Either patch up his relations with Anarchs or blackmail him. Anarchs would have surely appreciated some extra firepower in retaking the Chinatown (at least PC, Sheriff and LaCroix himself) and two contenders less (Strauss will be undermined as a result). Should he remain unconvinced, he will seemingly agree yet still try werewolves.
More elaborate plot could involve double-crossing Ming by tricking her into thinking that assassination attempt against PC and Nines was successful.

By the way, the latter is what I've used for post-Bloodlines themed tabletop campaign where LaCroix was the baron of Chinatown, except PC's story haven't happened and LaCroix had came up with that by himself. The sarcophagus was used as a distraction for Sabbat guys. Why bother with dumping or hiding it if Andrei will happily do it for you?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 03:14:24 AM by deicide »
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Offline Rubinia

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2018, 11:23:34 AM »
Quote
We actually COULD convince Lacroix to stop being stupid for once. Namely with persuasion and intimidation 10, we bluntly ask that he stop sending an unstopable terminator with inexplicable stat boost to die repeatedly and instead 'acknowledge' our capabilities and ask our permission to form an alliance. With the 'better man' at the helm of the relationship.

Wow! I definitely have to try that one day. Unfortunately my current pro-prince character is somewhat lame in social issues.  :facepalm:
"Having created something so extraordinary one would die happy, if one died."

"One is the path of a man, straight and plain: the never ending Crossroads."

Offline DiamondBorne

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2018, 03:56:08 PM »
Wow! I definitely have to try that one day. Unfortunately my current pro-prince character is somewhat lame in social issues.  :facepalm:

Wait, what I meant was that Trokia/Black Isle studio is well known for their RPG aspect. Their game designs was such that you could plays and win their games with any playstyle because they've anticipated the player's choice and create scenario to go along with it from the beginning. Like in Fallout series (which is one their best works) You could literally talk the final boss into killing himself with sufficient speech skills alone. Or you could maxed out your lockpick skill and breaks down the super locked door to activate nuclear warhead to kill him for example. Until VTMB there's no such thing as non-viable playstyle. So you gonna have to wait for some modder to create that ending choice for you because it's obviously not possible in the game. Sorry If I cause confusion. ^_^'

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2018, 05:19:13 PM »
So you gonna have to wait for some modder to create that ending choice for you because it's obviously not possible in the game.

I think it would be quite possible to add an ending similar to what you want e.g. by convincing LaCroix not to open the sarcophagus but storing it in the Camarilla warehouse instead like in the Strauss ending. Only I don't think he has lines that would make that believable and the result would be even more improvised than my Sabbat ending!

Offline Florence

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Re: Opinions on LaCroix, The Napoleon of Bloodlines
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2018, 09:33:25 PM »
Quote
A shame to the clan.
Doesn't know how to behave.

He's secretly an Anarch at heart  :rofl: Interesting theory eh? He obviously does not like his clan at all when we brings up his rebirth topic, Clan Ventrue takes pride in their lineage and shows off to everybody at any given opportunity, Surprisingly he has few words for them which is uncharacteristic for Ventrue as mentioned earlier.

About a way to non-lethally deal with Lacroix. If we goes by the 'classic' root of Troika-Black Isle RPG style. We actually COULD convince Lacroix to stop being stupid for once. Namely with persuasion and intimidation 10, we bluntly ask that he stop sending an unstopable terminator with inexplicable stat boost to die repeatedly and instead 'acknowledge' our capabilities and ask our permission to form an alliance. With the 'better man' at the helm of the relationship. (us players obviously  :smile:) and Voila! Lacroix happy ending route.

It's not that impossible or borderline fan-fiction at all. Lacroix is an obviously smart man. But He's just too young and has to go against many veterans such as Jack and all the crafty primogens. Nines who's much younger but with field experience going through the roof. and no less than three unknown variables: the Kuei-Jin, Beckett and the Nosferatu. He just can't take all the heat and too mentally broke down to think straight. I for one, pity his situation.


Hahah. I agree. Such dramatic emotional outbursts from him are not Ventrue at all.
Also his schemings are unsuccessful and pretty obvious (considering he is bringing his own end)
Ventrue would never act this openly/silly
Or lets say should not

But nevertheless he is a very well built character on his own for the sake of the game
We may not like him but he is a part of the game
I just wish some better Ventrues would have been represented in the game
He is literally the onyl Ventrue (except the player) and he is acting this annoying :)
~ To rule in blood is to rule in truth. ~