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Author Topic: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?  (Read 4146 times)

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2018, 09:16:36 AM »
As time continues, the Society of Leopold and related Hunter organizations will acquire even more advanced technologies, further putting younger vampires at extreme risk.

This is assuming these organisations go with the time and don't get stuck in the past themselves as religious organisations often are. At least Bach sounds backwards ;).

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Gary managed to crack it after great effort, but had no understanding of it, and was embraced shortly after anyhow...

I think you mean Mitnick and this only proves how fast the Nosferatu caught up with him and took measures against it...

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In such a case, Vampirism may very well become redundant.

Or maybe it could appear to be normal. Like "What enhancements are these, bro?" :)!

Offline FleshArtist

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2018, 09:37:42 AM »
As time continues, the Society of Leopold and related Hunter organizations will acquire even more advanced technologies, further putting younger vampires at extreme risk.

This is assuming these organisations go with the time and don't get stuck in the past themselves as religious organisations often are. At least Bach sounds backwards ;).

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Gary managed to crack it after great effort, but had no understanding of it, and was embraced shortly after anyhow...

I think you mean Mitnick and this only proves how fast the Nosferatu caught up with him and took measures against it...

Quote
In such a case, Vampirism may very well become redundant.

Or maybe it could appear to be normal. Like "What enhancements are these, bro?" :)!
Bach was indeed very backwards, and the branch of the Society of Leopold shown in Bloodlines was more or less backwards in general, but then again there are other parts of the Inquisition/SoC who might prove more adaptive. Quite ironically, the Inquisition/SoC has occultists, scientists, and other researchers who work for it.

I did indeed mean Mitnick, my mistake.  :facepalm:

Offline Aloysius

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2018, 10:12:24 AM »
I think they would adapt just fine. Plenty of criminal activities, or should I say not profitable to their legal counterparts and therefore ill looked even by them,
(the legal counterparts), are still going on under the radar in the real world and there will always be.
As for vampires, I am not very familiar with wod lore but in Bloodlines I take for granted that authorities already know that supernatural exist, vampires included.
To me even sects like the Sabbat, despite what some of them may say or even believe, must have a full system of their own to deal with humans who might have enough
power to be taken seriously in making their existences known, or otherwise act seriously against them.

Internet spying sure grew more and more disturbing, but I never did anything that I cared enough about on internet and that potential snitches could find interesting anyway.
Why would vampires be any different? Life doesn't depend of internet yet. Well not for everyone that is.

Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2018, 08:18:07 AM »
See no obstacles in elders using Tor or taking measures against their subordinates collecting data on them, guess prince Mithras either has extra 19 xp points to spare on Computers or Security or will earn them somehow. Ironically, it's easier for a Methuselah to adapt than an Ancilla, the former have used plenty of different flavors of an alien technology through their unlives, so they're beyond time in that respect.
It's not technologies they have a problem understanding, but modern mentality and spirit of the time. Or, rather, finding any reason to do so.

Upd. Just looked through his character sheet, he already has 4 pts in Driving and, guess what, 2 pts in Computers. More so, they aren't exactly walking anachronisms even officially.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 04:29:27 PM by deicide »
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2018, 09:00:58 PM »
I'll like to express my concern over two issues, the first being what the Fleshartist has mentioned: transhumanism. If this is not a threat to vampires then I do not know what it is - given the weakness of the blood (I figured that it is inevitable) over time, the humans will surpass or outlast vampires. It is a simple mathematical equation and the truth that had been passed down through history: all powerful must fall. Every empire, mechanic, person had been bested or had been deposed by the new. The original quote came from the tale of the Heike and it goes like this:

β€œThe sound of the Gion Shoja temple bells echoes the impermanence of all things; the color of the sala flowers reveals the truth that to flourish is to fall. The proud do not endure, like a passing dream on a night in spring; the mighty fall at last, to be no more than dust before the wind.”

The second issue is the rising militaristic rhetoric and movements that shall plunge the pendulum in humanity's favor - the human species are notorious for pushing back... with fire and guns. If anything, the human history is that of conflict, of those that are oppressed fighting back, sending their oppressors to the guillotine. I think that the kindred shall fare in the similar fashion.

When considering the mass media and the digital world, I see here that many claim that it is "inherently" a home-field for the kindred, even though it could turn out to be quite the opposite. Only a single HD video, released in the right time on the right channel by the right person, is more than enough to topple the vamps or at least to deal a serious blow. The means to do so are today more available than one hundred years ago, it is a rule of probability.

Also, the 5th edition has a load of SJW material in it... it has begun. There are certain taboos that are touched upon and allowed, voicing the loud deranged minority, but some are disallowed. What if I wanted to create a fascist vampire that cannot tolerate the leftist ideology's offspring?
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Offline Aloysius

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2018, 10:00:38 PM »
If human evolution through mecanical or biological mean(I assume it's what you call transhumanism, it's quite a ugly word I think) would develop enough to be viable, why vampires woudn't develop their own artificial enhancements? They are flesh beings as well.

I don't know, it seem many theories assume that vampires would just wait to be overwhelmed by human progress when they control a large portion of this progress to begin with, and can as much exploit it to their advantages before most humans even hear of it. I don't buy the 'old kindreds can't adapt to the new', they obviously did it before or they woudn't have survived.
Well, I don't know, none of this transhumanism or internet and camera are everywhere right until your toilet are difficult to anticipate, and therefore they can be controled/countered/exploited. If anyone ask me.

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2018, 08:15:49 AM »
The entire lore of WoD has numerous examples of how vamps are stubborn to change - their bodies have entered a "time stasis" so there is practically no reason for their mind not to follow in those steps.  Like all monarchs and pseudo-monarchs they shall only enforce those that they deem advantageous to their rule, but to advocate them they need to understand them. How would a 200 year old vamp readily comprehend a biomechanic arms or some such enhancement? A neonate might be more inclined to adopt them, but the unstable mentality that they harbor might hinder them to do so, plus the strict hierarchy: do you think that a powerful elder would allow a fledgling to "chrome up", possibly replacing him? Selfishness governs the world of kindred and everything else is relative when compared to it.

Also, there is the biological question of how would dead bodies adjust to the metal enhancements and what effect would it have on the inner beast - I doubt that the beast would allow its host to chop one of his limbs off and replace it with a prosthesis.  Even if it allows it, there might be side-effects and/or impact on his disciplines and blood potency.

However you turn it, vamps are a product of an old age and they survive through scheming, schisms, dominance, but I would argue that adjusting is not one of those. The term might be loosely defined in the dictionary of kindred, since you have 300+ years old kindred who prefer with the years to outright remove any obstacles rather than adjusting... they might compromise but that would last only so much, until they acquire enough power to either subjugate or limit. Either way, I think that vamps are given too much credit: they are not infallible, perfect or without weaknesses and to embrace change is one of those flaws.
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Offline Aloysius

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2018, 01:08:19 PM »
You might as well be right in wod lore where plenty of rules are made up for strict roleplay purposes when they contradict the most basic of survival's rules, at least from I can say from reading white wolf wiki for inspiration sometimes.

Anything that live have survival's instinct, and under necessity will do whatever it take, even overcoming strong lesser habits they can be stubborn about when real necessity isn't there to take over. Of course this is while speaking of a species, I am not saying that individually some might not be too stubborn to not see the necessity until it's too late.

For example Kindred with centuries behind weren't stop by their old ages to understand the danger of humans with technologies and adapted their behavior and sects to it. How did they do that if they are so rigid and unable to adapt? How did they even survive until 2000? They are obviously not all mighty and unfaillible since they need to hide, even the sabbat despite their speeches. But they are a intelligent species, they can learn, at least in Aloysius's lore where they aren't so rigid.

But you know, I could be wrong, only way to know who is right would be to put it to reality test. No vampires in reality though (right?). Only ordinary money and life's thiefs.

Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2018, 08:32:46 AM »
Speaking of Elders and implants, my opinion that the most of them will think of them as of a new tool or weapon, so won't hesistate to add the latter into their arsenal, enhancing their bloodbound and dominated daywalking resources at very least, and would surely invest their impressive resources into vampire specific implants development, for themselves and loyal followers. Why bother trying and failing to keep children away if it's much easier to install something that they won't be able afford in a millennia?

Indeed, they aren't into adjusting, they will try to bring a new area under control in the most efficient way. Since putting the genie back into the bottle couldn't be considered optimal, effective or even viable, they will try topping anothers in the implants game in the first place.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 08:47:11 AM by deicide »
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2018, 08:19:23 AM »
I do not deny that the kindred are a capable species, but their methods have grown to be far more reckless and public... many clans do not take enough time in "educating" their neonates to hide, be more subtle or less zealous, more often than not producing a heavy amount of collateral damage and loss of life.

I, personally, would not call kindred survivalists or manipulators, but more damage-control experts that inflict a lot of suffering themselves (their own existence is suffering for the kine) and every "oops" (according to the Camarilla rulebook) is resolved by murdering the humans or unsuspecting witnesses with little or no repercussions on the perpetrators. In Camarilla those kind of offences are punishable by death (so goes the party line), but I really doubt that every Cam dominion adheres to this or by now the vamps would be exterminated. I would like to have a statistic on this, but I doubt that they are printing out lists of executions.

I just wonder what are the kindred's long-term plans... are they really so sect relative, or they aim for world domination or perhaps extermination of humankind without which they would not exist.
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Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2019, 09:37:21 AM »
Through my life, I have read many books on geopolitics but also books which explain the methodologies of subversion and effective propaganda. The society or the nation that is unified by language, culture, values, religion and ethnicity is far more harder to infiltrate and subvert from within.
It's a quite a necromancy, but I think that religion should be excluded from this list. Religion, by design, is open to interpretation, don't even get me started on ambiguous and often self-contradicting religious texts that could be read in any way that one pleases. Therefore, it's easily corruptible, the "divide and conquer" tactic in regards of religion was employed multiple times over the course of history. Religion always was the one of the most popular reasons to start a war or conflict.
In a society with a sole religion, a schism inside it will certainly pack quite a punch. On the other hand, in a multireligious society it does not play any role of importance, otherwise it would've fallen apart already, without any vampire influence. If such a society survived, it means it's tolerant towards different religions and branches, so setting up a divide would achieve nothing but just another branch of yet another religion.
For these reasons, I will prefer a society that united by anything but it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 09:46:11 AM by deicide »
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2019, 05:43:54 PM »
From my point of view, religion is but another power mechanism alongside economic development, politic dominance and wealth distribution system - a potential ticking bomb if not handled correctly.
 
I was never particularly fond of multi-religious environments, partly because of my personal conviction that in a single country there can be only one authority, one army and one religion in order for that country to function properly - inviting more opposing religions, ethnic groups that refuse assimilation or insist on special treatment, having an indecisive policy on foreign and domestic matters that hinges on preserving the right of a fraction of people at the cost of the majority's well-being is defacto inviting open warfare, bloody schism and cultural erosion only to mention a few. It has nothing to do with privileges or favoritism, but such an organized country will have true justice - equality before law.

Not to stray from the topic too much - I know that there are certainly deviations and exemptions, but such a rigid system is what I like about the Cam. Diablerie, siring without permission etc have a singular resolution most of the time - again, I know that sometimes there are differences, but such a clear-cut and black/white system is what I consider justice. Blind yet equal for all.
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Offline Porphyria

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2019, 04:26:13 PM »
Nah I don't think the Masquerade would be doomed in the future.  i think it would be mostly Toreadors on social media and there is a lot they can do to normalize themselves anyway lol I think a lot of the rules would still be effective. Vampires aren't supposed to be out in public doing crazy shit. If someone did capture something on a smartphone and lived to upload it, everyone would think it was a hoax.

Offline Malkav

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2019, 01:53:05 AM »
Yup. You upload the "feeding Nossie" photo Gary wants for the poster quest and everybody says: good job with photochop...
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Offline Barabbah

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2019, 03:56:51 AM »
In fact I always thought a better alternative to destroying the David Hatter script: convince Isaac to produce it and make it a trash movie success so any human who tries to reveal the vampire existence will be laughed as a conspiracy nut who saw too much movies (plus he can also, obviously, cover up or dramatically emphasize some of the more delicate issues). Not to mention how I have wanted, since I've played the game from the first time, to make awareness campaigns about not abandoning thin bloods on the streets. "Don't leave the masquerade at risk! Adopt a thin blood today!"
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