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Author Topic: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?  (Read 4382 times)

Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2018, 12:22:31 AM »
I assume it's a mix of both, a clickbait and the mentioned diagnosis, still there is a plenty of people who sincerely buy such a wares, for I'm sure it takes the latter to came up with such an article. Real VtM fan wouldn't bash it like that and someone not touched by political correctness would've chosen a different way of noisemaking.
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2018, 01:07:05 AM »
I assume it's a mix of both, a clickbait and the mentioned diagnosis, still there is a plenty of people who sincerely buy such a wares, for I'm sure it takes the latter to came up with such an article. Real VtM fan wouldn't bash it like that and someone not touched by political correctness would've chosen a different way of noisemaking.

Most likely it is indeed a potent mix of both. Still, it can do damage. The extremist voices are usually the loudest voices.

Offline Griezz

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2018, 03:04:58 AM »
No, the rise of smartphones and CCTV should not provide much of an impediment to the Masquerade. Why? Simple - because people are putting less and less faith in what they hear and see.

Here are two short phrases which justify this opinion: "Hollywood" and "fake news". For the first, remember that, in the game itself, pawn store owner Trip sees even a Nosferatur face-to-face and he just puts it down to a cool makeup job; why should the general public behave any differently? Don't they see much weirder, scarier and horrible stuff all the time in their popular media?

As for the second term, we are seeing how the North American culture seems to be growing more and more disenchanted, disconnected and disbelieving of the news media in whatever they report, especially if what they report (no matter what kind of proof they may have) goes against our personal beliefs. When people turn to evangelists or politicians to decide whether or not science is accurate, there's a major problem. In a world of Alex Jones, "deep state" conspiracies and arguments over whether a recent President was a "real American" or even a "real Christian", the Masquerade could not be safer.

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2018, 08:47:27 AM »
No, the rise of smartphones and CCTV should not provide much of an impediment to the Masquerade. Why? Simple - because people are putting less and less faith in what they hear and see.

Here are two short phrases which justify this opinion: "Hollywood" and "fake news". For the first, remember that, in the game itself, pawn store owner Trip sees even a Nosferatur face-to-face and he just puts it down to a cool makeup job; why should the general public behave any differently? Don't they see much weirder, scarier and horrible stuff all the time in their popular media?

As for the second term, we are seeing how the North American culture seems to be growing more and more disenchanted, disconnected and disbelieving of the news media in whatever they report, especially if what they report (no matter what kind of proof they may have) goes against our personal beliefs. When people turn to evangelists or politicians to decide whether or not science is accurate, there's a major problem. In a world of Alex Jones, "deep state" conspiracies and arguments over whether a recent President was a "real American" or even a "real Christian", the Masquerade could not be safer.

Again, the same postulates and values are not the same for all nationalities... where one nation is easily susceptible to religious changes, the other falls maybe far more easily into an economic crisis - generalization is the arch-enemy of any given regime if it wants to preserve its power it should seek various ways to maintain a notion of sensibility and balance in the sea of volatile radicalism and stupefying liberalism.

As for the Trip theory, I don't live in North America and if I would see a Nossie, I would reach for a 12-gauge and try to put up a fight. It is not because I know about the nosferatu or WoD, but because I am not interested in the world that from my point of view is another planet - I couldn't care less for what happens on the Hollywood catwalk and what are the newest changes on Wallstreet, latest celebrity selfies or whatever. It is a matter of priorities and outlook on life.

I always advocated the importance of one's environment and circumstances in which one grows up and matures. A youth in an economically stable and safe country that never felt the burden of war and sanctions on its soil is inherently more prone to be unrealistic in his expectations from the world (I am not saying that all are, but there is a probability) than the one that grew up in a war-ravaged country with huge unemployment rates where your number one priority is to find a remotely decent job and survive. The latter would find the existence of kindred far more easily since his view is more realistic and whole lot harder to manipulate by the social networks.

For user Aurelian: unfortunately yes, the radical voices are usually the strongest but they lack reason to see wrongs of their policies and stay aloof of any requests/demands to mend their ways. Such dissonant voices, should they remain unchecked for a long period of time, can seed hatred and madness within peoples, cultures, societies and in every other aspect of one's life throughout several generations. That is why I am an enemy of every radical movement in any given sphere... simply because of their conveyor belt logic and default blindness.
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2018, 02:38:59 PM »
Again, the same postulates and values are not the same for all nationalities... where one nation is easily susceptible to religious changes, the other falls maybe far more easily into an economic crisis - generalization is the arch-enemy of any given regime if it wants to preserve its power it should seek various ways to maintain a notion of sensibility and balance in the sea of volatile radicalism and stupefying liberalism.

As for the Trip theory, I don't live in North America and if I would see a Nossie, I would reach for a 12-gauge and try to put up a fight. It is not because I know about the nosferatu or WoD, but because I am not interested in the world that from my point of view is another planet - I couldn't care less for what happens on the Hollywood catwalk and what are the newest changes on Wallstreet, latest celebrity selfies or whatever. It is a matter of priorities and outlook on life.

I always advocated the importance of one's environment and circumstances in which one grows up and matures. A youth in an economically stable and safe country that never felt the burden of war and sanctions on its soil is inherently more prone to be unrealistic in his expectations from the world (I am not saying that all are, but there is a probability) than the one that grew up in a war-ravaged country with huge unemployment rates where your number one priority is to find a remotely decent job and survive. The latter would find the existence of kindred far more easily since his view is more realistic and whole lot harder to manipulate by the social networks.

Perhaps you are familiar with the book The End of History and the Last Man by Francis Fukuyama? The book makes a case that with the fall of Soviet Union, liberal democracy has triumphed over all other ideologies and now it is merely a question of time before entire world embraces liberal democracy. In other words, liberal democracy represents the endpoint of human cultural and political evolution. To me, as a Croat, such a book illustrates something many thinkers outside North America and Western Europe pointed out, a profound naivety which has enraptured the souls of people living in the West. Of course, it is understandable why such narrative became so popular in the West, for they experienced neither war on their own soil or any profound suffering since the end of WW2. War and suffering in general, tend to foster deep cynicism and skepticism.

You and I, however, know that history never ends. The conflict for land and resources is eternal, for it is created not out of human ideologies or religions but by physical laws that dictate that we live on a finite planet with finite resources.


Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2018, 07:29:51 PM »
I have heard of the book, read an excerpt from it during the course of my studies - I need to analyze it in greater detail now that I have a bit more time. Thanks for reminding me.

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Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2018, 11:08:12 PM »
Mankind has bigger problems than competition between political systems and ideologies since no system will function well under current conditions. There are way more humans than resources which will, without a doubt, result in any system being corrupted in the favor of minority as it's impossible to sustain a decent living standards without harming competitors and keeping them from climbing higher.
Conversely, any reasonable system would work with sufficient resources as a result of nonzero-sum games being more advantageous in that case. Therefore, mankind should begin to control its population and gradually reduce it over the few generations for the first and foremost.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 11:18:19 PM by deicide »
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2018, 11:51:06 PM »
I have heard of the book, read an excerpt from it during the course of my studies - I need to analyze it in greater detail now that I have a bit more time. Thanks for reminding me.

I would also recommend the Clash of Civilizations by Samuel P. Huntington and The Coming Anarchy by Robert D. Kaplan. These three books form the Great Three geopolitical predictions, which are studied and analyzed by geopolitical communities across the planet, not just in the West. Thus far, it appears that F. Fukuyama is profoundly mistaken and he has admitted that to a certain degree. The future will most likely be a blend between the vision of Kaplan and the vision of Huntington.

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2018, 11:20:58 AM »
Mankind has bigger problems than competition between political systems and ideologies since no system will function well under current conditions. There are way more humans than resources which will, without a doubt, result in any system being corrupted in the favor of minority as it's impossible to sustain a decent living standards without harming competitors and keeping them from climbing higher.
Conversely, any reasonable system would work with sufficient resources as a result of nonzero-sum games being more advantageous in that case. Therefore, mankind should begin to control its population and gradually reduce it over the few generations for the first and foremost.

Depends how you look at it, since the political systems and ideologies are precisely the ones that regulate the behavior of a civilization, they provide the latter with "lenses" through which the civilization as a whole looks at new things, influences and alterations. They regulate birth rates, legal and judical matters, social questions and economy - a right political system and an ideology to follow it could attain the necessary power to mend the burning questions.
However, you make a good point with the statement that there is no adequate political system for the situation now, though that issue is open for debate: some kind of individualism would do, but what kind, I am not an expert to answer that question. One thing that I am sure of is that it should maintain balance between the overwhelming freedoms of the West and the stifling regulations of the East. We can discuss this issue perhaps.

Also, in my opinion, the biggest and the most pressing matter of the world in my opinion is inequality between the countries in the world. There are people who believe in the West that there are no countries in Europe that have monthly wages between 300 and 400 EUR (sometimes below), yet I am living in one where it is the sad reality. However, that is all the consequence of general human history: there will be always those that live on the misery of others, so there is no panacea for this disease.

For user Aurelian: I have read the clash of civilizations, but the latter book is unknown to me. I shall read on, thanks.
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Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2018, 03:34:37 PM »
It seems that you're giving too much credit to them, they represent different styles and flavors of solving tasks that exist even in the absense of civilization itself, not the means themselves.
Inequality between countries has the same reasons that inequality inside a country: utilizing others, keeping their numbers high and profile low is more viable strategy than using own resources, which, in turn, makes the latter even less viable, and so on... It's a spontaneous golden milliard in reverse. In times past, global scale wars served both as a population control pill and the reset mechanism for a corrupted chessboard. In this day, the war itself is corrupted, serving as an another mean of keeping the status quo.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 04:02:11 PM by deicide »
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2018, 04:36:48 PM »
It seems that you're giving too much credit to them, they represent different styles and flavors of solving tasks that exist even in the absense of civilization itself, not the means themselves.
Inequality between countries has the same reasons that inequality inside a country: utilizing others, keeping their numbers high and profile low is more viable strategy than using own resources, which, in turn, makes the latter even less viable, and so on... It's a spontaneous golden milliard in reverse. In times past, global scale wars served both as a population control pill and the reset mechanism for a corrupted chessboard. In this day, the war itself is corrupted, serving as an another mean of keeping the status quo.

My life experience up to this point has shown me that humans need a certain vision, hierarchy or system to see and/or understand certain things, even to change or to eliminate them. Ideologies should serve that single purpose alone - to form a prism through which a healthy society could act upon matters, not to solve them spontaneously and with large amount of collateral damage.
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Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2018, 08:10:55 PM »
Sure, but this won't happen for the reason that current world model needs badly its human fuel. Unless, of course, people would take the matter in their own hands and start to act with more responsibility towards next generations so better ideologies and, ultimately, a better system could arise.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 08:24:12 PM by deicide »
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2018, 08:18:24 PM »
Sure, but this won't happen for the reason that current world model needs badly its human fuel. Unless, of course, people would take the matter in their own hands and start to act more responsibly towards next generations so better system could arise.

That will never happen, since the old are hellbent on maintaining a system that shall keep them in power. Most of my opinions here had been my outlook on the world order the way it should be, but alas, this world had become a real world of darkness where much of human sensibility and compassion had evaporated.
Frankly, I am tired and have lost hope in humanity - too many gruesome things have happened in the world, common sense, compassion and especially moral are practically non-existent, making me believe that universes such as Shadowrun or Deus Ex are upon us with their corrupt systems and rotten capitalism.   
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Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2018, 08:40:52 PM »
I would be more vary of an average Jane or Joe acquiring a family for no other reason than a desire to feel all warm and fuzzy and important. Bigwigs could be, at least, understood, but that's worse than Torries' shtick from rulebooks.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 08:42:47 PM by deicide »
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2018, 12:00:51 AM »
That will never happen, since the old are hellbent on maintaining a system that shall keep them in power. Most of my opinions here had been my outlook on the world order the way it should be, but alas, this world had become a real world of darkness where much of human sensibility and compassion had evaporated.
Frankly, I am tired and have lost hope in humanity - too many gruesome things have happened in the world, common sense, compassion and especially moral are practically non-existent, making me believe that universes such as Shadowrun or Deus Ex are upon us with their corrupt systems and rotten capitalism.

The world is now, as it always was.   

The debate about ideologies is fundamentally meaningless in the incoming climate change that will destroy human civilization as we know it today. The rampant consumerist hedonism that is masquerading as individualism is long term unsustainable and will have apocalyptic consequences for our planet.  It matters not whether we worship at the altar of capitalism, socialism, communism or any other -ism. All those systems are built upon a idea of perpetual growth. People wanted the goodies in the America and the Soviet Union. We live on a world with a finite amount of resources.

Our civilization is doomed. And that is alright: because our civilization is wrong. It is unsustainable by design. If anything survives, it will be another civilization.