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Author Topic: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?  (Read 4330 times)

Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2018, 05:51:14 PM »
But that would go only so far.
Individualism can be a serious threat and single right man in the right place would be enough to throw a wrench into the entire operation and bring it down...
Indeed, such a treat was everpresent. The chain reaction could have started in any era, not necessary 21th century.
Conservative societes are more difficult to infiltrate, but easier to control or manipulate from within once the work is done. It only means the cainites would use more old fashioned analog means instead.

But this is a inevitable logical conclusion to any society that puts the freedom of the individual as its highest moral virtue.
More like "freedom to rob others of their freedom". Another systems aren't behaving any more gracefully when corrupted and rotting, which is imminent end of carbon-based life.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 06:19:11 PM by deicide »
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2018, 06:39:00 PM »

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2018, 06:51:33 PM »
Right on.

Greetings from Croatia.

Warm Greetings.

What Deicide has said is correct without doubt, but still a more closed and regulated society is far more complicated to penetrate and maintain that power, also it has an "auto-defense" mechanism that would be able to remove or curb outside influence. Besides, to acquire and maintain power are two different things, that history has already proven. Failure to recognize it had already doomed many.
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2018, 09:25:27 PM »
What Deicide has said is correct without doubt, but still a more closed and regulated society is far more complicated to penetrate and maintain that power, also it has an "auto-defense" mechanism that would be able to remove or curb outside influence. Besides, to acquire and maintain power are two different things, that history has already proven. Failure to recognize it had already doomed many.

Through my life, I have read many books on geopolitics but also books which explain the methodologies of subversion and effective propaganda. The society or the nation that is unified by language, culture, values, religion and ethnicity is far more harder to infiltrate and subvert from within. Which nations are more vulnerable to subversion? Japan, Poland, Russia, Vietnam and Ethiopia or America, Sweden, Bosnia, Syria, Lebanon and India?

But I bring nothing new to the table, for this has been known since the times of Plato and Aristotle. Famous Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun wrote numerous books on rise and fall of societies.

Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2018, 11:20:24 PM »
As to the globally blown Masquerade, I would rather prefer a set of scenarios for different eras and countries if anyone wants to play that. Such a canonical end ruins the whole purpose of the game by turning cainites into mutants either working for humans or ruling them.
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2018, 10:08:05 AM »
I'm going out on a limb here, but there is truth in "all good things must come to an end."
For me the true lure of WoD is the bleak atmosphere and the omnipresent feeling of hopelessness, but as soon as that shroud of mystery and obscurity dissipates, the magic is gone. This risk is getting only bigger as time progresses and as the universe wideness with numerous add-ons and additional supplements.
I am just worried that the universe will suffer the fate of Warhammer for example, with numerous releases on all media that are really becoming vapid and seriously out of character, just to protract the universe (return of the primarchs etc...). The way Vampire is going is really reminiscent of the former, even instilling fear that the kindred will fall into the service of the state in a C-rated quasi-sci-fi horror dystopia.
I would rather have it ended than kept alive by a respirator of jaded and/or insipid additions, since my confidence that it will mature well is really on glass pillars. I know that the entire history of mankind is the actual frame for the setting of WoD, but as the existence of humans loses its relevance and flavor the kindred are bound to follow the trend, since the kine is the both smoke-screen and primary
sustenance so what happens in the world of kine, happens in the world of kindred and vice-versa.
Also, I remember hearing the theories, rumors, possibilities and etc regarding the sequel to Bloodlines and can't help but to shudder at what it could possibly bring into the world: social justice warriors, pointless nudity and sex etc.
Before I get crucified for the latter sentence, just compare Bloodlines and Witcher for example: Bloodlines did not need abundant amounts of pointless sex and nudity to portray an adult world where morality is at best grey, nor the amount of cussing was the same and yet we have a compelling story that does not lose its charm even after 20+ plathroughs stretched over a course of several years. That is why I consider Witcher to be a cheap and poor game, using the most tried and profane recepies to attract the public, while Bloodlines utilizes excellent narrative to further its reach.
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Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2018, 12:31:10 PM »
Back to the societes topic, I think that the individualistic, being the most accessible for the new players, is, parodoxically, the hardest to subvert, as that means one should corrupt in some way every individual member since there is no definition of majority and very few core concepts, which violation would cause a backslash without a doubt. Another question that individualism is as rare as diamonds and what's usually marketed under it's name is anything but it. For example, in Western world it's competition.

Speaking of the end of VtM, there is no need in war to end all wars, if one does not want to keep it alive, don't continue it, problem solved. The second attempt in canonical apocalypse will, the most probably, achieve a different effect, causing an unhappy part of audience to demand a resurrection and another part to stop taking the setting seriously. That will seem exactly as if devs are whoring for attention and trying to peddle an another useless book.
Besides, I could not see an end to this until mankind shall stop parasiting on itself. The idea of superparasite is as timeless as ever, and, probably, will remain that way for a long time.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 02:33:35 PM by deicide »
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2018, 04:15:03 PM »
Also, I remember hearing the theories, rumors, possibilities and etc regarding the sequel to Bloodlines and can't help but to shudder at what it could possibly bring into the world: social justice warriors, pointless nudity and sex etc.
Before I get crucified for the latter sentence, just compare Bloodlines and Witcher for example: Bloodlines did not need abundant amounts of pointless sex and nudity to portray an adult world where morality is at best grey, nor the amount of cussing was the same and yet we have a compelling story that does not lose its charm even after 20+ plathroughs stretched over a course of several years. That is why I consider Witcher to be a cheap and poor game, using the most tried and profane recepies to attract the public, while Bloodlines utilizes excellent narrative to further its reach.

The Witcher is a masterfully created story/world if we compare it to other modern popular role playing games. Personally, I remain deeply fond of the Witcher series, for it is the first time Slavic mythology and lore was presented to the world. Kao Slaven, iznimno to cijenim.

You make a good point, however all of this is but a glimpse of a far greater problem; the fact that modern audience is getting more and more desensitized to various subtle stimuli. Therefore they need more and more stronger emotions to be capable of investing themselves in story. Why do you think Game of Thrones series is so popular? It has hardly any originality in it, but people love the senseless violence and the nudity/sex. 

As for social justice warriors, I remember reading revised Tzimisce clanbook and in chapter about their history, they are horrified at racism and Holocaust. Tzimisce? Horrified by racism and genocide? Heh.

Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2018, 04:42:09 PM »
As for social justice warriors, I remember reading revised Tzimisce clanbook and in chapter about their history, they are horrified at racism and Holocaust. Tzimisce? Horrified by racism and genocide? Heh.
That's some fanservice BS. Indeed they could consider it pointless at best and stupid at worst, but horrified because a Jew or two had met the furnace? Are you damn kidding?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 05:01:09 PM by deicide »
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2018, 05:17:35 PM »
As for social justice warriors, I remember reading revised Tzimisce clanbook and in chapter about their history, they are horrified at racism and Holocaust. Tzimisce? Horrified by racism and genocide? Heh.
That's some fanservice BS. Indeed they could consider it pointless at best and stupid at worst, but horrified because a Jew or two had met the furnace? Are you damn kidding?

That is absolutely hilarious... the Tsimisze being disgusted by holocaust? Now I've heard everything.

Regarding the mentioned lack of sensibility - it is easier to include a visual representation of an idea to horrify or portray a message that put more effort in the story.
I perfectly understand the value of Witcher in representing the Slavic mythos, but the manner through which the game frequently portrays it doesn't sit well with me. I gave the game a chance, played the assassin of kings, but due the mentioned profanity I simply gave up... however I do understand that some people like it for different reasons and are able to look past its flaws, so I do not judge. The game has its beautiful highlights and captivating scenes, it is the matter of taste.
I remember playing Bloodlines for the first time back in the day, when I understood the horrid childhood of Tourette or when I saw what Gimble was all about - Jeanette and Therese, apart from the ambiguity, present everything through dialogue in a master-crafted emotionally tense scene where you as the third party are actively taking part in the resolution. No need for graphical illustration, thus concluding that the effort is the most important thing.
Me: "I love lollipops!"
WoD ST: "We don't allow lollipops, because we are too dark!"

Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2018, 06:06:47 PM »
Then I would strongly recommend Witcher I, which has nothing in common with further titles but the leading character name, even his graphic design is completely different. I bet you will see what had gone wrong. By all means, the trademark pointless sex and cursing is here, but the way it was used... While the most of characters express themselves literary, the some swear a lot, in much more creative and amusing fashion than 2/3.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 06:25:45 PM by deicide »
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Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2018, 06:15:43 PM »
Then I would strongly recommend Witcher I, which has nothing in common with further titles but the leading character name, even graphic design is completely different. I bet you will see what had gone wrong.
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll try it out. +1
Me: "I love lollipops!"
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2018, 06:46:36 PM »
That is absolutely hilarious... the Tsimisze being disgusted by holocaust? Now I've heard everything.

Also, for user Deicide,

Yeah, I find it profoundly tragicomic. The legendary Tzimisce, lords and ladies of unimaginable suffering, are aghast at the Holocaust and racism. Also, it appears some people are desperately trying to portray White Wolf in negative light. 

Quote
The blog Dogs with Dice recently came out with an article on WWG connection to alt-right.

His reasoning is that Vampire: The Masquerade shows race superiority, facsist tendencies of the masquerade, sexualization of women, hiring of people who supported Gamergate, and a whole other list of reasons.


Offline deicide

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2018, 08:40:03 PM »
If they wanted to make a nod to political correctness they even haven't tried to do that in proper, since they could do the same perfectly in character, emphasising the cold open-mindedness for which Tzimisce are known for.
But it seems even this travesty weren't enough for some clinically politically correct people.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 12:39:21 AM by deicide »
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Offline Aurelian

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Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2018, 12:12:02 AM »
If they wanted to make a nod to political correctness they even haven't tried to do that in proper, since they could do the same perfectly in character, emphasising the cold open-mindedness for which Tzimisce are known for.
But it seems even this travesty weren't enough for some clinicaly politically correct people.

I sincerely doubt people who write such articles have any semblance of intellectual honesty. You want to sell some news or information? Make it scandalous and accusing with worst of terms, people flock to such shit in droves.